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@Meddler Why Do You Think Garen Needs A Nerf?

boss10000··8 votes·3,073 views

Its been 5 days since patch 5.16 dropped and the juggernaut changes it, and in that amount of time Garen has been judged to be OP and in the need of a nerf, as follows:

In Garen's case we're now fairly sure he's too strong, and are thinking about reducing his mobility a bit (-5 base MS, -5% on Q's movement speed bonus).

Now this is a HUGE nerf to Garen as he was already slow as hell and one of the few champions the boots of swiftness Alacrity was pretty dam common to compensate.

Now I would like to know and have a discussion with Meddler as to why he thinks Garen is OP and in the need of such a nerf.

From what I have seen playing as him aswell as against him, is he has clear weakness (mainly the weak early game now), and then late game he can be kited to no end by any decent ADC, and there doesn't seem to be really any massive stand out issues that seem to have arisen from Garen being changed, he hasn't shot up to god tier win rate (I know they don't matter) the boards and forums have been quiet quiet with not many people complaining about him (the biggest Garen thread is talking about his mental health not gameplay health).

It feels like the changed listed above were due to Riot feeling he was to strong before going out , and then he slightly and i mean slight goes up in win rate and popularity and he must instantly be nerfed down, now i may be wrong in this, this is why i want to actually understand what is Meddlers reasoning behind the Garen nerf and what data or information is leading him to the conclusion that he is so desperately in need of this nerf.

So please Meddler if you read, please explain why Garen needs these changes and what has lead you to this result and why in such a way to make him even slower than before?

51 Comments

luckmallory6 votes

Building dead mans plate and then Full AD and sprinting at the villain with 600 MS. Silence then ult them for 1400 true damage. It is a little too much. He is stronger and i like that but he has almost no counter play for the villain considering he is naturally very tanky and can essentially one shot whoever the villain is.

MasqureMan3 votes

{quoted}

Building dead mans plate and then Full AD and sprinting at the villain with 600 MS. Silence then ult them for 1400 true damage. It is a little too much. He is stronger and i like that but he has almost no counter play for the villain considering he is naturally very tanky and can essentially one shot whoever the villain is.

Stun him, slow him, knock him up, fear him, kill him, push him back. Build actual items that help you against the champs your fighting rather than the same ones every game then wondering why you can't react to what's in front of you

luckmallory1 votes

It isn't that easy lol. If you blow all of your cc on him to kill him he won the team fight for your team. What happens if the villian is your frontliner? congrats you can't frontline anymore because the second you reach 50% hp garen will insta kill you. Also a garen with merc treads and his w active can walk through most damage and cc. What is an adc or apc going to build to counter garen's ult?

MasqureMan1 votes

{quoted}

It isn't that easy lol. If you blow all of your cc on him to kill him he won the team fight for your team. What happens if the villian is your frontliner? congrats you can't frontline anymore because the second you reach 50% hp garen will insta kill you. Also a garen with merc treads and his w active can walk through most damage and cc. What is an adc or apc going to build to counter garen's ult?

Well I've had games where I was a tanky darius up against a tanky garen, we both go in to initiate for our teams, and we both die instantly. So our teams seemed to know how to deal with us.

luckmallory1 votes

then you both did your job as the tank. The problem isnt with tank garen. It is with AD garen. AD garen isnt the main initiator. He sits back like old fiora or Jayce and jus twaits until cc is blown then one shots whoever he wants. If you save your cc for him their initiator just wrecks havoc on your team. Also the most common garen build right now is to take TP flash then get distortion on your boots. Now your flash is up pretty much every team fight. Flash onto villian, silence, now they cant flash, ult for 1500 true damage

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

then you both did your job as the tank. The problem isnt with tank garen. It is with AD garen. AD garen isnt the main initiator. He sits back like old fiora or Jayce and jus twaits until cc is blown then one shots whoever he wants. If you save your cc for him their initiator just wrecks havoc on your team. Also the most common garen build right now is to take TP flash then get distortion on your boots. Now your flash is up pretty much every team fight. Flash onto villian, silence, now they cant flash, ult for 1500 true damage

i swear, as im reading through the thread, the true damage he apparantly deals gets more and more.

i guess he can get up there pretty high, against a really tanky villain (which should be rare). but dont forget that if you ult a target on 300 hp, it doesnt matter that death recap says 2k damage. because the ult dealt 300 damage.

luckmallory1 votes

the point is before he had to wait for you to reach a certain health amount to execute you and he could misjudge it based on the person's MR. Also any AD champ could build Maw and ignore it. Now you cant do either. If they are below half health, your ult will kill them if they are the villain.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

the point is before he had to wait for you to reach a certain health amount to execute you and he could misjudge it based on the person's MR. Also any AD champ could build Maw and ignore it. Now you cant do either. If they are below half health, your ult will kill them if they are the villain.

more like about 1/3 unless its a squishy. and yea, it still only works against the villain.

clutch shields including spellshields still work by the way.

luckmallory1 votes

good luck using a spellshield while silenced. Also, a shield may save you but you still have 100-200 hp left. Also it only has to work against he villain. He auto kills whoever it is, then the villain switches to someone else and he gets max health true damage on his E to them. Also it is half health. There is a popular forum post that shows it. He was playing 3700 health skarner and got ulted at 1760 health and it killed him. video was included.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

good luck using a spellshield while silenced. Also, a shield may save you but you still have 100-200 hp left. Also it only has to work against he villain. He auto kills whoever it is, then the villain switches to someone else and he gets max health true damage on his E to them. Also it is half health. There is a popular forum post that shows it. He was playing 3700 health skarner and got ulted at 1760 health and it killed him. video was included.

well yea, then why did the skarner try to fight him head on? might sound shitty, but if that mark is above your head, and youre melee stick to throwing cc or chose another target.

did the skarner ult the garen so his team could dismantle him? or did he try to 1v1 while he was the villain?

luckmallory1 votes

The fact that if a mark is above your head forces you to basically not play your champion the way he was meant to is toxic. Also skarner ulted the enemy team's malzahar, garen flashed over the wall by raptors, Q'd skarner auto'd and then ulted him. Kill him in under a second. He had 213 armor and 3700 health.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

The fact that if a mark is above your head forces you to basically not play your champion the way he was meant to is toxic. Also skarner ulted the enemy team's malzahar, garen flashed over the wall by raptors, Q'd skarner auto'd and then ulted him. Kill him in under a second. He had 213 armor and 3700 health.

that couldnt have happened from full health. a q + auto attack doesnt even bring a villain in kill range from full health. especially if the skarn has that much. unless hes 5 levels behind the garen. and looks to me like they didnt pay attention to garen flanking them. legit play imo.

in another game this could have been a fiddle ult that wrecked the entire team. or a mummy jumping over the wall then ulting 5 people.

this particular ms nerf wouldnt even change anything about the situation you described.

Zorae422 votes

Link please?

His ult does 525+40% of the target's missing health. The numbers you gave means Garen should've done 1300 dmg with his ult (according to my math :P). Which shouldn't have killed skarner...

Am I missing something?

luckmallory1 votes

Im trying to find it right now. Also 1300 true damage is more than full AD darius with 5 stacks, but garen can do it instantly and at full tank

Chaotic Reks1 votes

and that's ALL he can do other than silence one person and spin in your team. People seem to not understand that Garen's identity is a tank that is meant to eradicate squishes and punish people for their mistakes.

luckmallory1 votes

That is the problem, no character should be able to build full tank and delete squishies. Thats toxic to the game. It's one or the other. You dont get to build 6 tank items and delete a carry and call that balanced.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

That is the problem, no character should be able to build full tank and delete squishies. Thats toxic to the game. It's one or the other. You dont get to build 6 tank items and delete a carry and call that balanced.

yes you do.

because unlike that carry he doesnt have the luxurity of dealing damage from 700 range, with hard cc in his kit, from behind a tank and a support.

he has no in combat sustain like lifesteal. hes heavily restricted to melee range. he has no hard gap closer like shyvana with her ult or hecarim with his ult and e, he has no hard cc like udyr with his frequent bear stance stuns. all of these attributes contribute to him needing to be more tanky than the average carry, while his job is exactly the same. to deal damage.

you only look at the defense/damage ratio of the champion without factoring in how important things like mobility or hard cc is that other champions have.

he is literally only good at 2 things. dishing out damage and taking it. so he nees to be really damn good at it. i dont see why a lategame garen shouldnt deal more damage and be more tanky than a lategame jax or irelia who have much more in their kits.

luckmallory1 votes

This response literally gave me cancer.

Then i clicked on your profile

Saw level 10

Now it all makes sense

azrolator1 votes

{quoted}

Im trying to find it right now. Also 1300 true damage is more than full AD darius with 5 stacks, but garen can do it instantly and at full tank

Garen can't knock someone down from 3700 to 1300 instantly and to get anywhere near that kind of damage power garen would have to be full on squishy melee. And Garen can't ult an entire team or instantly make whatever target he wants to kill the villain.

azrolator1 votes

{quoted}

It isn't that easy lol. If you blow all of your cc on him to kill him he won the team fight for your team. What happens if the villian is your frontliner? congrats you can't frontline anymore because the second you reach 50% hp garen will insta kill you. Also a garen with merc treads and his w active can walk through most damage and cc. What is an adc or apc going to build to counter garen's ult?

What can they build? They can stun him or slow him or walk away. His movespeed was nerfed and his tenacity was removed. His ult does 525 damage at max rank with 1 for every 2.5 missing health. so to kills someone with 50 percent hps , let's see... 2k hps squishy, lost 1000 hps, ult does 925. nope. 3k bruiser, 1500 hps left, 525 + 600 = 1125. nope. tank with 4k hps 525 + 800 =1325 nope. tank with 5k hps. 525 + 1000 = nope. All these people saying he instakills somone with 50 percent health. 1800 weak squishy. 525 + 360 = 885. nope, but close. Sorry. you are wrong. Even if the squishy is in front and his team has 0 cc and can't stop garen after his movespeed was nerfed and tenacity removed and your squishy was the villain that is the only target garen gets a bonus on. God forbid a full health bruiser with no cc kills a half dead squishy though. So the result of nerfing garen to give him a mediocre late game damage boost will be to nerf him some more. I'd rather just have the old Garen back. All this crap wasn't even worth the nerfs in the first place.

luckmallory1 votes

you did the ult damage wrong on 3 of those lol. your math is incredible mate. But for example the first one you actually did correct. they survive with 75 HP. THEY SURVIVED WITH 75 HP FROM HALF HEALTH THAT MEANS BALANCE GUYZZZZZ. HE BUILT 6 TANK ITEMS AND OBLITERATED A CARRY WIT HA TARGETED NUKE. THEY NERFED HHIS MOVE SPEED THEN INTRODUCED DEAD MANS PLATE SO HE NOW HAS 600 MOVESPEED WITH Q ACTIVE.

Idiot

azrolator1 votes

{quoted}

you did the ult damage wrong on 3 of those lol. your math is incredible mate. But for example the first one you actually did correct. they survive with 75 HP. THEY SURVIVED WITH 75 HP FROM HALF HEALTH THAT MEANS BALANCE GUYZZZZZ. HE BUILT 6 TANK ITEMS AND OBLITERATED A CARRY WIT HA TARGETED NUKE. THEY NERFED HHIS MOVE SPEED THEN INTRODUCED DEAD MANS PLATE SO HE NOW HAS 600 MOVESPEED WITH Q ACTIVE.

Idiot

I am on a lot of pain pills today. Sorry if I got the math wrong. I am out of it. But at least I wasn't an asshole that resulted to insulting people when I was proven wrong. PS I am fine with making his ult back to magic damage again for everyone. Unless whatever the villain is is some MR stacking tank it makes little difference.

Garen players and non Garen players pretty much are all agreeing that they would rather have old Garen back. There is the solution.

Shonjl4 votes

Its amusing as hell people are saying Garen was too strong and that he needed a nerf literally right after they reworked him which makes it sound like they want him to not exist. He finally became somewhat relevant and not anymore.

Gotta love Riot being biased with their own game, Garen doesn't have any QQ from the community but nerf him anyways, but you have filth like Lee sin getting buffs til the end of time, Vayne being in every game and being the premier ADC and that is totally fine hmmmmm?

luckmallory2 votes

I love garen and i still do. I play a ton of him before and after the rework. He is too strong ATM, it is too easy for him to build black Cleaver and IE 4 tank items and sprint at the villian and insta kill them regardless of how tanky they are.

Altricad1 votes

And people on the forums literally don't care that Darius is terribly weak

If Riot balanced around QQ, then Darius would continue to remain at 43% win rate because everyone hates playing against darius, Zed would remain permanently disabled because f*k zed mains that spent their money on his skins, Devourer would never exist as an item and pre-nerf cinderhulk sejuani/gragas would be in every game 3 shotting adcs.

I get that you're mad Riot decided to nerf Garen, but this wasn't a totally brainless move

Old Garen was already incredibly oppressive if he got ahead. Srsly, if you played any adc other than Kalista aganist a fed garen( like 3 kills) , you're f*ked. He'd run up to you, silence you, spin till your hp reduced to 30% then execute you. You can't even kill him with his absurd tanky stats, and chasing him is like chasing Udyr except he heals , so at some point he'll turn around and chase you

New garen now SCALES better into late game, so if he gets even slightly ahead, he destroys people ( even those that match him in gold are destroyed through his "villian" passive)

Also last note

-5 ms, -5% ms, that's nothing

Watch how skarner is gonna get axed over the next few patches and be happy that garen isn' gonna get nearly the same treatment

Altricad4 votes

Don't even justify that garen is balanced http://champion.gg/champion/Garen Picked in 13% of games and wins 55% of them And garen wasn't changed in any major way, and his playstyle is still the same, and yet he wins more games. What does this mean? That he's overtuned

And Darius is sitting at 43% win rate and and boards think he doesn't need buffs

OJ1912 votes

{quoted}

Don't even justify that garen is balanced http://champion.gg/champion/Garen Picked in 13% of games and wins 55% of them And garen wasn't changed in any major way, and his playstyle is still the same, and yet he wins more games. What does this mean? That he's overtuned

And Darius is sitting at 43% win rate and and boards think he doesn't need buffs

55% is only borderline and winrates are mostly useless without ancillary data to back it up anyway.

Personally I feel the problem is probably dead mans if anything not garen himself.

redniwediS3 votes

"Don't argue against my point of view, even if you think I'm wrong." - Best policy I've seen in a while...

Garen got stronger, so more respect has to be given to him. Situations where you could evenly trade with him before are now in his favor, and situations where you had a small advantage are now even trades. This is what happens when a champion get's buffed.

People keep playing against him like he is the pre-patch Garen, and that is a huge mistake.

Altricad1 votes

I will agree with you that he got stronger, but when a champion is winning a lot of games there is a reason for it

Either

  1. People aren't accustomed to fighting the new garen ( like the new fiora, how riposte now works) or
  2. Garen is overtuned

I really don't think it's "1" because his playstyle is the same. Run up to someone, Silence and then use "E" to deal damage. Yes, power was shifted. Is garen now weaker in lane to make up for his potential damage with the new items? For a champion who's early game was nerfed, garen wins a LOT more games that last between 0-30 mins than 30-40 mins So, guess rito is hitting his early game movespeed until he completes his movement speed items item 3742 item 3009

And really, 5 ms won't cripple him anytime soon, that's barely noticeable after you get boots. it will slightly nerf his laning ( which riot wants)

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

I will agree with you that he got stronger, but when a champion is winning a lot of games there is a reason for it

Either

  1. People aren't accustomed to fighting the new garen ( like the new fiora, how riposte now works) or
  2. Garen is overtuned

I really don't think it's "1" because his playstyle is the same. Run up to someone, Silence and then use "E" to deal damage. Yes, power was shifted. Is garen now weaker in lane to make up for his potential damage with the new items? For a champion who's early game was nerfed, garen wins a LOT more games that last between 0-30 mins than 30-40 mins So, guess rito is hitting his early game movespeed until he completes his movement speed items item 3742 item 3009

And really, 5 ms won't cripple him anytime soon, that's barely noticeable after you get boots. it will slightly nerf his laning ( which riot wants)

i hate the idea of a double nerf to his ms though. they need to chill with the hammer on this one and dont entirely trash 1 aspect of his kit.

if it was the base ms nerf in the movement departement alone, and theyd also remove the true damage on auto attacks against the villain, things would look different.

but making him slower and then making him slower some more, is one of these double nerfs that has kicked champions into the ditch in the past.

think about it. you nerf his base movement speed with his current ms bonus, means he doesnt move as fast when he runs normal and the bonus from the q is reduced aswell since its % based. so if you reduce the bonus from his q some more it could hit him really hard.

and even though he might be abit too strong right now, hes not that op.

redniwediS1 votes

5 base movement speed and 5% movement speed reduction to his Q won't do a single thing...

Garen's increased strength makes his old playstyle stronger, which has to be taken into account for 1. It's harder to make an opening for a good trade with his E cooldown mechanic without baiting E. Baiting Q is about all anyone ever did pre-update, so some playstyle changes will be needed.

I'm not saying point 2 isn't correct, mind you, I just hope Riot gives point 1 enough time before coming to any decisions.

MasqureMan1 votes

{quoted}

Don't even justify that garen is balanced http://champion.gg/champion/Garen Picked in 13% of games and wins 55% of them And garen wasn't changed in any major way, and his playstyle is still the same, and yet he wins more games. What does this mean? That he's overtuned

And Darius is sitting at 43% win rate and and boards think he doesn't need buffs

13% of games and winning 55% of them sounds fine to me, why is that reason for a nerf?

Subject 51 votes

{quoted}

Don't even justify that garen is balanced http://champion.gg/champion/Garen Picked in 13% of games and wins 55% of them And garen wasn't changed in any major way, and his playstyle is still the same, and yet he wins more games. What does this mean? That he's overtuned

And Darius is sitting at 43% win rate and and boards think he doesn't need buffs

Overtuned? I'm sorry but you don't know what that means.

Let me explain.

Mordekaiser Can do about 3k damage with his Q, by the way this is in one hit, the third hit. LeeSin If he is ahead in the early game at about levels 6-7 and has built an ad item like hydra, he can 1 shot you with his Q-Q Ult.

Ziggs This guy is a mage, he does magic damage. With 0.5 ratios, rather under-tuned but makes up for it because of itemization and he is a poke champion, he doesn't need to do burst damage like other champions.

As for the win rates, if you think win rates matter. Then Janna is broken, Heimerdinger is broken, Ahri is broken, Malzahar is broken, Fiora is broken, Amumu is broken and 15 more champs are broken, because they win more than 50% of their games. (More than 40 champions are that way, but right now the only person with a broken win ratio as far as history details is Skarner. But that is probably because he doesn't need to worry about mana at all, considering the crystals regen THIS MUCH MANA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr4SKY0MiCo

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Subject 5,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qfmA8oJM,comment-id=00000003,timestamp=2015-08-24T21:54:06.691+0000)

Overtuned? I'm sorry but you don't know what that means.

Let me explain.

Mordekaiser Can do about 3k damage with his Q, by the way this is in one hit, the third hit. LeeSin If he is ahead in the early game at about levels 6-7 and has built an ad item like hydra, he can 1 shot you with his Q-Q Ult.

Ziggs This guy is a mage, he does magic damage. With 0.5 ratios, rather under-tuned but makes up for it because of itemization and he is a poke champion, he doesn't need to do burst damage like other champions.

As for the win rates, if you think win rates matter. Then Janna is broken, Heimerdinger is broken, Ahri is broken, Malzahar is broken, Fiora is broken, Amumu is broken and 15 more champs are broken, because they win more than 50% of their games. (More than 40 champions are that way, but right now the only person with a broken win ratio as far as history details is Skarner. But that is probably because he doesn't need to worry about mana at all, considering the crystals regen THIS MUCH MANA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr4SKY0MiCo

i hate this video.

hes showing a chain of garen ults against people with like a 100 hp and calls it broken. we get it. skarn is op right now, but hes exaggerating with the other guys.

hes also ignoring that the posts about garen all happened at the time of the juggernaut teaser. his rework was terrible back then with the self slow on the e, and the per rank cap of the w passive.

{quoted}

This response literally gave me cancer.

Then i clicked on your profile

Saw level 10

Now it all makes sense

this is a forum smurph, i couldnt care less. and attacking your opponent instead of his argument is a sign of defeat.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

instead of double nerfing his movement speed, cant we just remove the 1% true damage on auto attacks against the villain?

i mean he mostly uses his spin anyways, and it would shave off a bit of power in a place where he doesnt really need it. it should be noticable, but it wouldnt harm his playstile all too much.

redniwediS1 votes

Garen is still hovering outside of the win rate range they want for champions. Personally I don't know whether or not Garen really needs a nerf, since I'm still not really seeing champions that I'm used to having steamroll me when I play Garen, but I only see a tiny part of the full League experience.

I also don't think the above nerfs will do much, if at all to Garen, but it is possible it will weaken his lower level play enough to get that win rate down without touching higher level play.

Calabok1 votes

Every game I have played with a Garen in it have been with him carrying the game to win. NERF TIME!

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Every game I have played with a Garen in it have been with him carrying the game to win. NERF TIME!

so basically exactly what a carry is supposed to do. hes not a melee adc, but dealing damage is his job.

think of him as a more tanky, less mobile and obnoxious riven.

{quoted}

It isn't that easy lol. If you blow all of your cc on him to kill him he won the team fight for your team. What happens if the villian is your frontliner? congrats you can't frontline anymore because the second you reach 50% hp garen will insta kill you. Also a garen with merc treads and his w active can walk through most damage and cc. What is an adc or apc going to build to counter garen's ult?

the villain mechanic usually picks the guy with the largest killing spree. that should usually be a backliner like an adc, a mage or someone like an assassin.

it still could be a frontliner like irelia. but that should rarely happen. it almost never should be the support or a tank.

and you dont need that much cc to deal with him.

Crett1 votes

item 3078 item 3071 item 1306 item 3742 + MS quints + mastery This matters little

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

item 3078 item 3071 item 1306 item 3742 + MS quints + mastery This matters little

ewww, triforce? and stacked with a cleaver? get that shit out of here pls. if you want another mobility item item 3142

if you want on hit damage, crit, and movement speed at the very least make it a shiv. then youre only wasting the attack speed. and not like 4 stats.

swifties are situational good on him. but if you get them you dont have tenacity and youre really getting dumped by hard cc. would only recommend in case of slows dominating on the enemy team.

boss100001 votes

{quoted}

item 3078 item 3071 item 1306 item 3742 + MS quints + mastery This matters little

The problem is look at that cost of you go for normal Garen build with movmennt speed

item 1306 item 3742 item 3071

7255 Gold that Garen is spending to "Overcome" his low mobility and they want to nerf it more, it takes 2 itesm to make Garen into the mobile chase tank you want and even then you get a masisve warning cause you see a Garen run towards you its not like eve, shaco or Rengar where they are invisible and come out of nowhere giving you 0.1 second to react.

If a Garen is running at you, you get masisve warning, and if he was hiding in a bush you would of died to any other champion anyway (most of the time) so how is honeslty that hard to kite?

And if hes really that bad just pick Ashe or better yet, Build his super counter, kit item item 3022< there you go how to beat Garen, build item 3022 and kite him for days.

Altricad1 votes

So you're telling me a damage tank with potential true damage and labeled a "juggernaut" should't be kited? What next, %max hp damage should be removed so no-one can kill tanks?

BRBGTGBOWFLEX1 votes

I love Garen and I'm glad he's finally relevant. However, he is just way too much at the moment because once he gets Dead Mans Plate he is nearly inescapable.

I do not want him to go back to being irrelevant, but I also do not want giant Garen's spinning to win 24/7 every single game. He's too much Garen at the moment. He needs to calm down a bit.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

I honestly don't think it will make that big of of a difference. Garen will still be more mobile than he was pre-rework now that he is no longer slowed while moving through units.

Desiderium1 votes

Rioters don't like having one-on-one discussions about balance. Trust me, I know.

You should still trust their judgement. Just don't expect them to talk to you about it.

Erijian1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tomb of Insomnia,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qfmA8oJM,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-08-24T19:57:11.500+0000)

Rioters don't like having one-on-one discussions about balance. Trust me, I know.

You should still trust their judgement. Just don't expect them to talk to you about it.

There's no reason to really trust Riot's judgment when it comes to balancing Garen in specific. If I recall correctly there was some big discussion about a year ago where they straight up claimed they never want Garen to be even remotely strong (Or LCS viable) because he's a beginner champion.

These nerfs are unjustified and are the wrong kind of nerfs he needs if he must be nerfed; nobody wants to be forced into building Deadman's every game to even have a chance of getting near enemies. Fiora has a higher win rate than Garen does and Garen is getting nerfs before she is; it's obvious Riot has something against Garen.

Lugg1 votes

It's the same problem you have with any bruiser. You can't have a champion that does great damage and be very tanky. They are pretty much never balanced since they can outduel anyone.

Shénzhì1 votes

#5.16 still allows Darius' axe to pull target from out of range. At least give him a new animation...

Just saying.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb1 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Garen

Looks plenty strong to me. Could probably be nerfed a bit and stay above 50%. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking that you shouldn't have over a 50% chance of winning on your 2nd game with a champ tho

Erijian1 votes

There's a huge Garen hate circlejerk going on lately.

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3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

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