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Champions And Consistency (Riot Please Read)

boss10000··125 votes·6,210 views

I posted this in EUW and am going to post it here for more exposure.

This is one of the most annoying things in League Of Legends as Riot knows about it but isn't really fixing it (well sort of), This is the consistency of the game from one champion to the next.

What Am I Talking About?

With league of legends, the game is never consistent from champion to another champion, one of the key examples is: abilities hitting after flash on some champion but not others, this is a big issue as it changes from champion to champion and Riot clearly knows how to fix it as they will often do it when they do a big change to champions when they get buffed or nurfed.

Some of the major issues are with certain champion interactions with abilities, the major offender with this is Jax (So is Fiora W, Patheon Passive, or Blind Effects), who's E ability says "For up to 2 seconds, Jax dodges all basic attacks and takes 25% less damage from area of effect abilities." Now you would think this means if anyone AA's you, you will block the attack right?

Well what about on hit effect AA abilities, how are these meant to interact?

  • Do you block just the AA part but take the on hit damage.
  • Do you block the AA and the on hit is not consumed till an AA that hits.
  • Do you block both the AA and on hit taking no damage.
  • Do you block spells with on hit effects. Ezreal Q (You do BTW, more consistently than AA on hits)
  • Etc, etc, etc.

Video of most but not all the interactions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNlagyW8OMA&feature=youtu.be

Big Reddit Discussion https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3027nq/out_of_40_attack_modifiers_jax_e_works_properly/

You can see where im going, if you play Jax you have no idea when going vs one champion to the next on how this will work and how it will interact.

Why Is It Bad?

So as a player this is very very very annoying as there is no clear pattern or consistency and the clarity of the game is, to quote Riot:

"The job of clarity is to refine knowledge such that both parties can make intelligent choices. If one player makes a fatal error (either due to a lack of knowledge or mechanical skill), they should lose due to their opponent's superior skill, not the inconsistency of a game rule (that all particles accurately represent their hitboxes)."

Which is clearly an important aspect for Riot, so could we have a small group of Riots balance team that whole job is to go from champion to champion and check for these consistency, then make sure that all interactions are working correctly, make a note of this, then have the whole balance team fixes these over time (think texture update style, patch after patch).

This would vastly improve the game and make it feel much better to play and you can then feel confident going from champion to champion, not felling like the game is unfair, where your champion can flash away and still get hit by there ability, while if its the opposite way round your ability gets cancelled (This is what is meant to happen BTW).

Conclusion

I know that this would take some time and effort but it would be really nice to actually have this done so the game fells much more consistent and clear, weather your playing jax, teemo, garen, firoa, etc.

Just by having a small team to make notes and identify all the issues and bugs facing each and every champion, it would then allow for the slow and gradual improvement of all the champions in the game to be at a consistent standard, to stop confusion in the game when going from one champion to the next, there will obviously be some big jobs, such as Jax as stated above, but when it is all done it would vastly improve the feel of the game and make it much, much nicer to play for all players.

Finally, Riot it would be nice to have it so that all the champions could be made to feel confident with, that I can go from champion A to B and be 100% sure that an ability will work in this way and not worry about the game screwing me over, it would take a long time but it would be worth it in the end, for a more consistent feeling game that is clear to its players.

TL;DR

Depending on the champion being played, they will interact differently to each other when they shouldn't, e.g. abilities hitting after flash etc.

It would be nice if Riot could go through and make change to make the game and all the champions much more consistent.

50 Comments

bulldoggamer41 votes

I just wanna thank you for being civil and intelligent when you posted. I'm sure I'm not the only member of the community that appreciates that.

Thelmon6 votes

In the video, it looks like all skills that apply physical damage are blocked while all those that apply magic damage are not blocked. Some on hit spells apply both physical and magic damage, in those cases, the physical damage is blocked, but the magic damage and on hit effects are not.

boss100002 votes

{quoted}

In the video, it looks like all skills that apply physical damage are blocked while all those that apply magic damage are not blocked. Some on hit spells apply both physical and magic damage, in those cases, the physical damage is blocked, but the magic damage and on hit effects are not.

Not always true, look at shaco Q for example which is meant to be just a crit not even an on hit effect just a crit but it goes through.

It Hertz When IP7 votes

The very fact this is being debated speaks to the OP's point on lack of clarity.

boss100007 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ky35T4q4,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-04-07T21:17:53.826+0000)

The very fact this is being debated speaks to the OP's point on lack of clarity.

True the fact that people are even talking about it and not sure on it, proves the lack of clarity.

Firefox5095 votes

Nasus Q wasn't dodged (phys damage) Rengar Q was dodged (phys damage) Darius W was dodged (phys damage)

kass's W was dodged (magic damage add-on hit) jax's W wasn't dodged (magic damage add-on hit)

ezreal Q was dodged (phys ranged AA skill) same with gangplank

Azir's soldiers weren't dodged (magic AA)

Leona's Q was dodged with no magic damage but stunned (magic damage add-on hit + stun) Renekton's W wasn't dodged with damage and stunned (phys damage + stun) Garen's Q wasn't dodged (phys + silence)

Rek'sai's basic hits missed but his q's on-hit effect still hurt

CC seems to always be applied, but weither it hits or misses... theres NO clear indication about what hits or what doesn't, some magic add-on hit effects are blocked (kass), some aren't (jax), both gangplank and ez's Q were dodged but those are the only 2 sort of AAs that are consistant with each other for Jax's E, but then why does nasus's Q, and jax's W, and Garen's Q go through when other AA enhancers like leona's Q and kassadin's W, and rengar's Q are blocked, its so very inconsistant and theres NO clear situational indicator about what actually does or should go through or not, especially when comparing very similar skills

Ltank1296 votes

My greatest complaint of this is Yasuo's windwall. Passive aside, his wind wall is the most annoying part of his kit. You never know what it will or will not block.

Leona's e? Yep JarvanIV 's e? Nope.

Chogath 's w? Nope. Cassiopeia 's R? Negated completely.

Ryze 's point and click cc? Unnaffected. Lulu 's point and click polymorph? Negated.

I don't know what I can or cannot throw at him. The description says "projectile" but what counts as a projectile and what counts as instantaneous? For example, Zilean 's q used to be instantaneous but now is a projectile.

KaisadiIIa12 votes

Yasuo's windwall is actually an example of a consistent ability. It's easy to distinguish projectiles from non-projectiles.

Leona's E is a projectile, you can see a particle traveling from her to you. Jarvan's E (the flag) looks like a projectile, but it never goes through the windwall (he just launches it to the infinity and then it falls from the sky), so it isn't blocked. Cho'gath's W is not a projectile, once the ability is casted, it affects all the area at the same time. Cassio's R doesn't look like a projectile, but it seems like it is... I will give you this one. Ryze's W is instant, there is no traveling particle. Same for Lulu's W. Lulu's W has a particle traveling from her staff to the target, as Humbreonn said, and that particle can be blocked.

so tl;dr: If you can see a particle traveling from the enemy to you going through the wall, it's a projectile. If it happens otherwise, it isn't. (Jarvan's Q, for example, isn't traveling from him to you, it just extends but continues being attached to him all the time).

I hope this help you to distinguish which things it can block and which ones it can't.

Humbreonn5 votes

Actually Lulu's W is cancelled by windwall. It does have a particle traveling from Lulu's staff to the target.

As you said, Yasuo's windwall is a consistent ability at most of time (it's very easy do distinguish projectiles from non-projectiles), but sometimes it's not clear at all. Annie's and Cho's W aren't blocked by the wall, but Cassiopeia's R does. To me, it looks like the same type of ability.

KaisadiIIa1 votes

Good to know, I never noticed Lulu's W had particles.

And I agree with what you said about Cassio's R, it shouldn't be blocked.

flibitydoo5 votes

Wait a minute. If lulu's W is a projectile...

does that mean braum can intercept polymorph? And get polymorphed instead? that'd be pretty cool to see.

Humbreonn1 votes

I had never tested that before, but in theory... Yes :)

Kosm1K3 votes

Did you know that Yas WindWall can negate skarner ult? That's pretty inconsistent if you ask me. He wasn't allowed to block poros during snowdown because they're alive, why is skarner's tail any different?

McMoney1 votes

{quoted}

My greatest complaint of this is Yasuo's windwall. Passive aside, his wind wall is the most annoying part of his kit. You never know what it will or will not block.

Leona's e? Yep JarvanIV 's e? Nope.

Chogath 's w? Nope. Cassiopeia 's R? Negated completely.

Ryze 's point and click cc? Unnaffected. Lulu 's point and click polymorph? Negated.

I don't know what I can or cannot throw at him. The description says "projectile" but what counts as a projectile and what counts as instantaneous? For example, Zilean 's q used to be instantaneous but now is a projectile.

general rule of thumb is that if it has a travel time and is not a skill that is placed on the ground it will be blocked. Cass's R for example has a cast time but once it is cast there is no travel time so it is not blocked

Quantum Weeb4 votes

This has been a big problem for Quinn and Teemo players who rely on blind. It is one of the most inconsistent mechanics shared between multiple champions. I mean this both in the sense that some things are blocked while others aren't, but I also mean that sometimes regular autoattacks aren't getting blocked either.

https://youtu.be/KCe8i0p5CQE?t=40s

Blind feels like crit, an RNG ability that requires me to significantly lower my DPS and for a chance at lowering the DPS of my opponent.

Squeekems2 votes

For Quinn, the victims of her Blinding Assault consistently have their first basic attack go through after being blinded.

Quantum Weeb1 votes

{quoted}

For Quinn, the victims of her Blinding Assault consistently have their first basic attack go through after being blinded.

I'm pretty sure it's true for Teemo as well, but much more noticeable on Quinn due to her blind's duration being half as long (when Teemo has maxed his Q.)

Squeekems1 votes

It is as if her Q does nothing but damage.

usul12021 votes

They fixed her! or so the patch notes say. But their description of the fix matches perfectly with what was apparently causing the issues (command time updates instead of launch time updates on blind conditionals). I'm so excited to play her tomorrow.

DrCyanide4 votes

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-57-notes

Hopefully that's going to be a thing of the past.

boss100005 votes

{quoted}

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-57-notes

Hopefully that's going to be a thing of the past.

Hopefully this is a step in the right direction, and similar will be done for Jax, Fiora and Pantheon.

DrCyanide3 votes

Clarity: The Joke continues.

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a392 votes

You need more upvotes.

Prestige Eve2 votes

Sometimes Fiora will take the bonus true damage from Yi's E during parrys.

Sky Shadow2 votes

I got killed by this nonsense earlier today and yes, it is a consistent issue.

The fix is easy for this too. Just code it to when someone flashes it gives them 1 frame of 'On pressed' untargetability.

That would nullify AA instead of them following you through a wall to kill you while still keeping effects from items and DoT on you, so even if you flash you wouldn't be able to escape, for example Ignite. It would just nullify auto's.

Really irritates me when I burn flash and I still die because someone got that lucky heat-seeking auto off at the same time I press Flash. It uses the summoner, goes on full cooldown and I still die.

Triblade2 votes

The reason Jax's dodge doesn't dodge things like Nasus's Q is because way back in the day anyone could build dodge chance and dodge Nasus's as well as other auto attack modifiers and so they changed the code so Nasus wasn't being unfairly treated if every time he q'd someone got a lucky dodge. Its a old thing that could use some polish but this is the reason why Jax can dodge something and not others.

Also Flash used to pop projectiles so homing autos were not a thing, but flash was to op back then so everyone was forced to pick it ..........

rinsujo1 votes

Even just for Jax specifically, this looks like something that someone should have a peek at.

Three dashes will work, it looks like whether or not they have spacing.

"- - -" or "---" (without quotes.)

boss100001 votes

{quoted}

Even just for Jax specifically, this looks like something that someone should have a peek at.

Three dashes will work, it looks like whether or not they have spacing.

"- - -" or "---" (without quotes.)

Yeah, its just one of those things that when you see a video like that you can see how bad it is, or how it can massively affect a game, I lost vs a stacked Nasus cause of it, where that would be super different if it worked the other way round.

p.s. Thank you, that has been bothering me for ages.

Gavran1 votes

+1. Blind and AA modifiers is equally messy.

M0RDEKA1SER1 votes

Don't know how this works with other champions. I haven't actually tested it thoroughly. Against Teemo, when he blinds Udyr, the stun effect from bear stance still works, and the pheonix still procs, but tiger does not.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

It has to do with how the ability is coded.

Some abilities are coded as AA modifiers (like BORK), that make the AAs themselves do more damage. Jax's E blocks these.

Others, particularly older ones, like Jax's own W, are coded as a single-target spells that are applied at the same time as the AA. Since they count as spells, Jax's E does not block them.

######As an aside, they also apply spell vamp. Look at the runes & masteries of a D5 jax main with over 1k jax games, who I got rekt by the other day (he went 27-0-4, had two pentakills, one of which included a 2v4 quadrakill under tower).

Dragon841 votes

[deleted]

junglerboy161 votes

You're kidding. YOU ARE F#$%ING KIDDING.

Why the heck are you hijacking a really good thread to post scams and crap. GTFO.

Chessburger1 votes

I really hate Alistar's W for a similar reason. It's interaction with other dashes/blinks are so inconsistent that it got annoying to the point I just stopped playing him. Sometimes they dash and you throw them the other way they were supposed to be flying if you add the dash and your angle into consideration. A lot of the times the W knockback portion simply will not work. Try to W a katarina that E's while you're flying at her. You'll just end up looking stupid and the kat will neither be knocked back nor will she move from the position she landed after her E. And you will not land on her so you can't combo. It's just ANNOYING to the point of unplayability.

JRobin311 votes

You clearly put a lot of work into the video, so I applaud your effort. I'd also like to note that RIOT has deliberately creates some inconsistencies champion to champion on the argument of counterplay or game balance or something. If you want to know the interactions then you have to know every single champion, not just superficially but intimately. That said, a lot of the "inconsistencies" pointed out in your video make sense once you become intimately familiar with the champions involved. For example, if were familiar with Azir, then you would know his soldiers do AoE magic damage; Darius' W gives an on-hit effect; Ezreal's Q applies on-hit effects; Fizz's Q has two parts a magic damage part and a physical damage part - the physical damage is on-hit, the magic damage is spell effect (Fizz is one of those anomaly champs, but the interaction makes "sense" once you know what it is <.<); Gangplank's Q applies on-hit effects (it is also treated as melee but that isn't really relevant to your video); Garen's Q is on-hit that specifcally penetrates dodges (but not blocks and parries); etc

So as you can see, once you really become familiar with the champions a lot of the interactions start to make sense. However, the overall point of your post remains intact. There are so many champions that a player cannot easily distinguish champion to champion what kind of effect is taking place. My favorite example in this regard is Poppy: Poppy builds AD items, but her Q turns the physical damage into magic damage. What this means is that unless you are intimately familiar with how Poppy works, you would look at her in game build and think that you should build armor to itemize against the AD she is building. But this would be incorrect, she does magic damage and you should build MR vs her even though she has IE and BT. When your death screen shows her magic damage output, you scratch your head and start to wonder, but it's too late, you already itemized wrong and she already killed you. By the way, Poppy's Q is an on-hit that cannot be dodged or parried, but it can be blocked (which explains the interaction in your video). You just had to be intimately familiar with Poppy to know that; it was in no way obvious from just looking at her in game.

In conclusion, the problem you are showing us is not so much inconsistency as it is lack of clarity. Yes, there are a few champions that are inconsistent with the rest (such as Garen and Poppy). But, in general, it's the lack of clarity: when is an enemy applying an on-hit effect vs a spell effect vs an on-hit effect that penetrates dodges (or parries)? If you didn't read the wiki, then you don't know. There is nothing in game besides trial and error that will give you the answer to that question.

boss100001 votes

{quoted}

You clearly put a lot of work into the video, so I applaud your effort. I'd also like to note that RIOT has deliberately creates some inconsistencies champion to champion on the argument of counterplay or game balance or something. If you want to know the interactions then you have to know every single champion, not just superficially but intimately. That said, a lot of the "inconsistencies" pointed out in your video make sense once you become intimately familiar with the champions involved. For example, if were familiar with Azir, then you would know his soldiers do AoE magic damage; Darius' W gives an on-hit effect; Ezreal's Q applies on-hit effects; Fizz's Q has two parts a magic damage part and a physical damage part - the physical damage is on-hit, the magic damage is spell effect (Fizz is one of those anomaly champs, but the interaction makes "sense" once you know what it is <.<); Gangplank's Q applies on-hit effects (it is also treated as melee but that isn't really relevant to your video); Garen's Q is on-hit that specifcally penetrates dodges (but not blocks and parries); etc

So as you can see, once you really become familiar with the champions a lot of the interactions start to make sense. However, the overall point of your post remains intact. There are so many champions that a player cannot easily distinguish champion to champion what kind of effect is taking place. My favorite example in this regard is Poppy: Poppy builds AD items, but her Q turns the physical damage into magic damage. What this means is that unless you are intimately familiar with how Poppy works, you would look at her in game build and think that you should build armor to itemize against the AD she is building. But this would be incorrect, she does magic damage and you should build MR vs her even though she has IE and BT. When your death screen shows her magic damage output, you scratch your head and start to wonder, but it's too late, you already itemized wrong and she already killed you. By the way, Poppy's Q is an on-hit that cannot be dodged or parried, but it can be blocked (which explains the interaction in your video). You just had to be intimately familiar with Poppy to know that; it was in no way obvious from just looking at her in game.

In conclusion, the problem you are showing us is not so much inconsistency as it is lack of clarity. Yes, there are a few champions that are inconsistent with the rest (such as Garen and Poppy). But, in general, it's the lack of clarity: when is an enemy applying an on-hit effect vs a spell effect vs an on-hit effect that penetrates dodges (or parries)? If you didn't read the wiki, then you don't know. There is nothing in game besides trial and error that will give you the answer to that question.

Video isn't mine, I found it on the reddit thread I linked but all created to the author.

There are still some inconsistency but as you said it is mostly clarity that is just super annoying to lane vs, which as you say can mean oh look its X I have to go on the wiki or try it in game to know if i will dodge or be hit and then it can put you at a huge disadvantage.

This is especially bad at champ select where for example you see a Nasus, now alot of people would think Nasus know for stacked Q which is an AA, ill take Jax and dodge it then. Unless your well knowledge on Jax you would think this, how could you not only to find that the game then proceeds to screw you cause of the E.

Shinjusuke1 votes

While we're at it, Airborne targets need to be completely immune to knockup abilities, because I'm completely sick of bullshit like Malphite's ultimate hitting me when I'm 10 feet in the air already.

I'm equally sick of having to explain to new players why Riot completely forgoes common sense on this kind of stuff. Explaining why you still get hit with autoattacks during blind, why you can get knocked up mid air, and why you can flash and still get autoattacked by apparently telekinetic basic attacks from melee champions is just plain infuriating and makes me look like an idiot to whoever I'm explaining it to because it does not make sense.

Seriously, these should've been considerations several years ago guys.

revliledpembroke1 votes

I still think Panth's passive should block any weapon thrown at him. I mean, seriously, I can use my shield to block rifle bullets, antique pistol balls, crossbow bolts, archer's arrows, Ez's "mystical" aa's, the damage from Grave's gun, and the (likely magical in nature) tower shots. However, Nid spears (Q not AA), Shaco's E, Gnar's boomerang (Q not AA) are at least three thrown items that should be blocked if I can block bullets from a rifle. Thematically, at least.

ladention1 votes

thematic is not supposed to affect game play. If it did then caitlyns headshot should instakill/deal mega damage. its a fricken HEADshot.

revliledpembroke1 votes

I get that, I do. Otherwise WTH are the flying champions doing flying low enough that people swinging swords can hit them? However, what I want to know is why does Panth block Nid's thrown spear (the autoattack) but can't block Nid's thrown spear (her q)? Does she throw it with a little more oomph to give it extra range? If so, why does his magical ability to block ever attacks suddenly disappear>? It's still just a thrown spear.

SociopathFriend1 votes

Because at some point, you have to suspend realism in order for the game to function as a game. This isn't meant to be taken in a mean tone- but that's just how it is.

With some games like RPGs, gameplay is less important than the "real world" within the game.

This is not the case for LoL, a game so steeped in gameplay that it barely has a lore now.

If it makes you feel better, remember Nid's Q gives her spear a big glow on it- so it's a magical spear.

revliledpembroke1 votes

I know it's a magical spear....but any shield that can block bullets and musket balls should be able to block a thrown weapon. I think it's something that they should add to Panth's passive because I think it's terribly confusing to new players to see one type of thrown weapon blocked and another not

Xela Syab1 votes

I've run into this alot in lol especially with Quinn and Shen. Quin can technically stop spell channels with her e which leads to odd interactions with character animations. Shen's shadow dash also stops channels like Morgs ult but it doesnt say that with his ability and for some reason Rammus' taunt doesnt have the same effect.

SerBlaise1 votes

I don't think morg's ult is a channel...it works through xhonyas...

Haunt1 votes

I just want Talon's w to come back to him if he throws it out before he dies.

Literally every other champion gets that, they even changed Ahri's to be able to do it. I find it very annoying.

Snowy Comet1 votes

Very good post. Yeah, it's very annoying when you can't tell what onhits are and aren't blocked. As some people mentioned, it might take some work to fix this because of the way that some abilities are coded.

Migrañaboy1 votes

B b b b burden of knowledge!

boss100001 votes

Well it's been 3 months and still nothing from Riot, even about them looking at it, Please Riot can this be changed so that it makes Jax feel more better, this simple change would make him far more viable than any buff or damage change as it would make him consistent so that you can play him and have confidence in him and what you doing with him.

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