Jax E Buffs But Still No True Fix To This...

boss10000··78 votes·5,809 views

So basically 5 month ago I posted this thread which talked about how Jax as a champion could be made so much better if they Fixed his E to be more consistent with in the game and made it so that you honestly knew what to expect when using it.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Ky35T4q4-champions-and-consistency-riot-please-read

Now the issue I highlighted was that Jax's E can be super inconsistent in what it actually block, it will block an Ezreal Q but not a Nasus Q, and honestly which of them is more a AA?, now with this issue in hand when you play Jax you honestly (unless you are a Jax super main god) never know every possible interaction that Jax's E would have with a champion.


What this means is that you could go from one game where a Jax E will block a Warwick ult (yes it block Warwick ult, use to block old Fiora ult aswell) but can't dodge Shaco Q (Yeap this some how goes through Jax's E when it meant to only be a crit), there is literally no rhythm or reason to why the ability works like this, as it blocks some champions ultimate abilities but then can't dodge simple crits or on hit effect AA.


This as you would undoubtedly guess is stupidly annoying as the difference between a Jax E dodging a Nasus Q vs Not is masisve and can without change a fight completely, and the worst part is that if you read the ability there is nothing, to give you any indication what it works against, and would lead most people to be miss lead, how many people would ever think, well it worked against Udry, Yasuo, etc to dodge there on hit, so thereby of course it won't work against Nasus, or Shaco Q (which is just meant to be a crit) can suddenly go through Jax E.


I said it in the original thread and will say it here, if Riot wants to make jax more viable, they don't need to buff nay thing about him, just make his E consistent (aka, block all AA and associated on hit effects) and this alone will give players the confidence to play him knowing excatly what he as a champion is capable of doing and and trust the abilities and not a random no logic mechanic on what it does.


Simple fact you give people something reliable that they can trust and rely on then it will allow it to be used more and trusted more, this is the same reason Azir was not played at release he was to buggy and unreliable and his abilities couldn't be trusted to work, and not screw you over with his bugs, and simply by doing this for Jax people would again use him.

The inconsistency of his E is the one and only reason I don't play him anymore cause its just so BS to have to make a spreadsheet for every god dam match up so I know weather I can trust the E or be screwed by it, this one change would open him up to more play and make him and overall better and healthier champion to play.

50 Comments

boss1000010 votes

Jax Copy Of Original ThreadJax

I posted this in EUW and am going to post it here for more exposure.

This is one of the most annoying things in League Of Legends as Riot knows about it but isn't really fixing it (well sort of), This is the consistency of the game from one champion to the next.


What Am I Talking About?

With league of legends, the game is never consistent from champion to another champion, one of the key examples is: abilities hitting after flash on some champion but not others, this is a big issue as it changes from champion to champion and Riot clearly knows how to fix it as they will often do it when they do a big change to champions when they get buffed or nurfed.

Some of the major issues are with certain champion interactions with abilities, the major offender with this is Jax (So is Fiora W, Patheon Passive, or Blind Effects), who's E ability says "For up to 2 seconds, Jax dodges all basic attacks and takes 25% less damage from area of effect abilities." Now you would think this means if anyone AA's you, you will block the attack right?

Well what about on hit effect AA abilities, how are these meant to interact?

  • Do you block just the AA part but take the on hit damage.
  • Do you block the AA and the on hit is not consumed till an AA that hits.
  • Do you block both the AA and on hit taking no damage.
  • Do you block spells with on hit effects. Ezreal Q (You do BTW, more consistently than AA on hits)
  • Etc, etc, etc.

Video of most but not all the interactions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNlagyW8OMA&feature=youtu.be

Big Reddit Discussion https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3027nq/out_of_40_attack_modifiers_jax_e_works_properly/

You can see where im going, if you play Jax you have no idea when going vs one champion to the next on how this will work and how it will interact.


Why Is It Bad?

So as a player this is very very very annoying as there is no clear pattern or consistency and the clarity of the game is, to quote Riot:

"The job of clarity is to refine knowledge such that both parties can make intelligent choices. If one player makes a fatal error (either due to a lack of knowledge or mechanical skill), they should lose due to their opponent's superior skill, not the inconsistency of a game rule (that all particles accurately represent their hitboxes)."

Which is clearly an important aspect for Riot, so could we have a small group of Riots balance team that whole job is to go from champion to champion and check for these consistency, then make sure that all interactions are working correctly, make a note of this, then have the whole balance team fixes these over time (think texture update style, patch after patch).

This would vastly improve the game and make it feel much better to play and you can then feel confident going from champion to champion, not felling like the game is unfair, where your champion can flash away and still get hit by there ability, while if its the opposite way round your ability gets cancelled (This is what is meant to happen BTW).


Conclusion

I know that this would take some time and effort but it would be really nice to actually have this done so the game fells much more consistent and clear, weather your playing jax, teemo, garen, firoa, etc.

Just by having a small team to make notes and identify all the issues and bugs facing each and every champion, it would then allow for the slow and gradual improvement of all the champions in the game to be at a consistent standard, to stop confusion in the game when going from one champion to the next, there will obviously be some big jobs, such as Jax as stated above, but when it is all done it would vastly improve the feel of the game and make it much, much nicer to play for all players.

Finally, Riot it would be nice to have it so that all the champions could be made to feel confident with, that I can go from champion A to B and be 100% sure that an ability will work in this way and not worry about the game screwing me over, it would take a long time but it would be worth it in the end, for a more consistent feeling game that is clear to its players.


TL;DR

Depending on the champion being played, they will interact differently to each other when they shouldn't, e.g. abilities hitting after flash etc.

It would be nice if Riot could go through and make change to make the game and all the champions much more consistent.

Desiderium5 votes

Jax is one of the most annoying champions when he's strong. He does whatever he wants, gets tankiness for buying offense and offense for buying defense...He's an extremely easy champion with a very high potential and a very low requirement to reach it. League isn't a fun game when Jax is strong.

With that said, Riot has been very slowly and steadily buffing him over, and over, and over again for basically the last two seasons, but they're being very careful. For very good reason.

TL:DR he won't get straight buffs until he gets a rework.

PT Waluigi1 votes

The thing with jax is...early game he is really weak. He is a very strong late game champion but a weak early game champion. But yeah. He can be bit insane when he hits that mark of full potential.

The Quinndred1 votes

The only time he is even slightly weak is pre6 at which point, he is farming under tower and not making aggressive plays. He has two abilities to help him escape ganks and engages and he can farm under tower extremely well. If he plays right, he is a VERY safe pre-6 and when he gets 6 he can just go ham.

Hellreaver3 votes

Where does he get offense or buying defense? What?

Does anybody actually bother to check what they're saying is right when they post anymore or are we just making shit up for the sake of upvotes now?

Caeler2 votes

His ult. He gains Armor based on his AD and MR based on his AP when it's active.

Hellreaver3 votes

{quoted}

His ult. He gains Armor based on his AD and MR based on his AP when it's active.

You're right, he does get defense from buying offense, however he gets literally 0 offense from buying defense. It's an absolute lie.

Saianna1 votes

His old passive used to cover that part ;P

Baron of Bread4 votes

I can remember losing a few games as Jax. I thought I could 1v1 Nasus because I would dodge his Q, but then I would just die horribly. I had assumed it was a bug like the one they had with Blinding but it is great to know it is just a bad interaction. They really should do this clarity buff and then balance him from there.

boss100003 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VoaNGvvE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-09-01T20:29:01.932+0000)

I can remember losing a few games as Jax. I thought I could 1v1 Nasus because I would dodge his Q, but then I would just die horribly. I had assumed it was a bug like the one they had with Blinding but it is great to know it is just a bad interaction. They really should do this clarity buff and then balance him from there.

Yeap, but against a Warwick you can beat his entire ult if you time it right, so makes sense right a Q on what 4 seconds vs a ult on 70 seconds, make sense right?

Crett3 votes

{quoted}

Yeap, but against a Warwick you can beat his entire ult if you time it right, so makes sense right a Q on what 4 seconds vs a ult on 70 seconds, make sense right?

He wouldn't be the first champion to invalidate ults with a basic ability Yasuo Braum Sivir Nocturne

Tannhäuser Gate3 votes

Fizz Fiora Elise Vladimir

Scrimshäw1 votes

right? right?

Cloud Potato3 votes

Jax is a horribly designed champion, lacking completely in counterplay and given free defensive stats. Making him viable is a bad decision.

But this thread isn't about making Jax strong. It's about making how E works clear. It's about knowing what it does and doesn't block, not through trial and error, but by reading what it does, which is what 99% of the abilities in this game do. Buff or nerf, it doesn't matter. Do whatever is necessary to keep him in line after you fix the issue. But don't leave the issue there because it might make him too strong.

Tent Salesman1 votes

I agree with this. I play a good bit of jax and I do get very frustrated when my E (counterstrike) doesn't block nasus Q (siphoning Strike). I would honestly be happy with on hit (next auto attack) effects being applied but the effects of the actual auto attack being dodged. However i disagree that there is no counterplay because when you see a jax activate his E you need to disengage until it runs out. Then if you go in while it is on its long cooldown you will most likely win the trade if he is not fed. A good tryndamere will E away when jax uses his E. I don't think jax needs a rework. All he needs is a clearer definition on what he dodges and to be kept in line if his dodge is changed. Thank you all for your thoughts and opinions. Have a nice day.

The Bíg Ticket2 votes

This champ has been trash tier ever since his season 4 nerfs...there is no reason to pick him unless you wanna troll or lose on purpose. His E being inconsistent is one of many reasons. As you said it dodges Ez's Q, but it doesn' dodge Kog Maw's W. It dodges Irelia's W, it doesn't dodge Shaco's Q. It dodges Udyr's R, it doesn't dodge Miss Fortune's Q, etc...

HighH11 votes

I don't know man there's certainly better picks but I wouldn't say trash tier

EDIT: Nevermind you seem to troll on a lot of posts carry on

The Bíg Ticket1 votes

Name me one lane he doesn't lose by default.

HighH11 votes

No champion loses lane be default either you're good or the opponent is better it seems like you've had some bad experiences with Jax so not even gonna try to argue with this one have fun trolling the other people.

Gonna guess you reply with "hah can't even come up with a champion he doesn't lose to nice question dodge" or something along those lines

You've played 40 ranked Jax games this season and a Jax game 4 hours ago when I commented,troll confirmed

The Bíg Ticket1 votes

Yup I play him cause he is my main and my favorite champ, if you already checked my profile you would have seen there is no other champ I have played 20 or mor times and have such a bad winrate with as with Jax (21 out of 41, just barely over 50). The champ just sucks, face it. If you weren't Silver V but actually played at a decent elo you would understand.

Shield Villain2 votes

Honestly I think they do this just do jax doesn't become too powerful. If he had a reliable interaction with a bulk of the abilities in LOL, it could tip him into OP range. He's already a fairly strong champion, and very easily capable of 1v5ing a team if played well. If you gave him that sort of buff, where his E can dodge any type of empowered auto, or auto interaction, he would need to sacrifice something else.

Just my take on it though.

Guy Fox Teemo5 votes

Jax is actually quite, bad in the curret meta, he gets bullied out to easily early on, and he was nerfed quite a lot awhile ago, His E is unreliable and has weird interactions etc. LIke stated above. He's not very strong right now if not, quite a bit on the weak side.

Hard Penetrator2 votes

I would not say he is bad, but balanced. Just those juggernauts messed things up and made several picks weaker like Jarvan, Hecarim (heck I would even say that Riven got weaker) or unplayable like Wukong.

At least Jax can hold his own against majority of champions mid to late.

Transgressor1 votes

Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo

There's nothing to worry about as long as windwall blocks 90% of spells in the game, and ALL ranged auto attacks.

And hybrid champions are kinda fucked right now, hybrid itemization and balance has been left on a shitty state on purpose, since RIOT doesn't know what to do.

Personally, I'd rather have Jax dominating the meta, than fucking Lee Thresh J4 Viktor Vayne FOR THE BILLIONTH TIME.

Hard Penetrator1 votes

But J4 top was balanced for years, and now he is getting shittier and shittier every patch.

Transgressor1 votes

J4 was never balanced, he was just forgotten. Remember how he dominated the jungle at the beginning of the season? Remember how freakishly strong he is full AD? Yeah, he's not balanced. And there's never been a time where J4 was never relevant, unlike others.

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

bump

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

his E should be reworked like dodge 1/4 of attacks once he dodged he can use it.

right now there is no reasons to attack jax while he E, it is counter productive and jax players only use it to stun.

Duchess of Deer1 votes

sure you can buff it as long as you fix the deceptive hitbox

Oelyk1 votes

Totally agree, getting hit by garens q but pantheons passive blocks its is just rude.

diamondlight1 votes

Z-axis is also a problem. Rammus can roll on the ground and hit a Tristana flying through the air in a Rocket Jump. Doesn't make sense at all.

Unfortunately, 4 years later, I think most of these bugs with J4 Ult are still there: http://forums.euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=522518

Vayne can Q Tumble out of his IMPASSABLE TERRAIN, still, 4 years later...

Inconsistencies:

  1. Abilities that are Terrain or Terrain-Like - J4/Trundle/Anivia/Azir
  2. Vertical Leaps (z-axis) that can be interacted with by things on the ground, Riven/Tristana
  3. Dashes vs Leaps vs Blinks
  4. Auto Attack vs Ability Blocking vs Blinds (Jax, Fiora, Teemo, Quinn)
  5. Projectiles vs Magic Abilities vs things that Block (Yasuo Wind Wall vs Braum Shield vs Sivir Spell Shield vs Morg Black Shield; when is it a spell, projectile, ability); ex. Kog Maw R goes "over" Wind Wall, but Vel Koz W which opens a rift below the ground, is blocked by Wind Wall, hmmmmmm.

I don't think there is consistency between all of them.

Anidan1 votes

The only real inconsistency I can see in "Dashes vs. Leaps vs. Blinks" is in the dashes themselves, in that some of them can traverse walls and others can't. The rest seem decently consistent in their own right.

Though I'm also not quite understanding the inconsistency of 4 and 5 there.. those things seem largely unrelated..

diamondlight1 votes
  1. Teemo blind affects auto attacks but not skillshot spells, or any spell for that matter, yet, for skillshots, it seems like being blinded should affect it, also not sure about Ezreal Q vs Nasus Q in terms of blind, I think blind stops Nasus Q, but not Ezreal Q; Jax (see above), new Fiora W can dodge every spell ability and auto attack supposedly (untargetable? but also dodges AOE even if it's a DOT?), and I don't think Quinn and Teemo Blind have the same list of what it prevents and doesn't prevent, someone would literally have to test out both.

  2. What I am saying is there is inconsistency about what each blocks and doesn't block. Sivir can spell shield Ziggs ultimate, which negates all damage TO ALL PEOPLE IN RADIUS (not just her), Yasuo Wind Wall only supposed to block projectiles, Vel'Koz W isn't a projectile, yet it blocks it, and Kog Maw R IS a projectile but it doesn't block it (it goes over the wall), Sivir can't spellshield Kat ult, or at least it only stops 1 of her ticks.

In order to actually know what works and doesn't work between every champ ability and every other champ, you have to either a) find a video where they did all that work already, or b) go into customs with two accounts, level up both champs and try out and see what happens, or c) find out the hard way, in the middle of a teamfight

If we had Sandbox mode, this might be easier to figure out in terms of doing the research and finding every inconsistency...

Penta Penguin1 votes

Jax could block Old Fiora's entire ulti... I once recommend just a simple icon on abilities that shows it's an ATTACK, but people in this stupid board don't like clarity for some reason

Also funny, I think Fiora is one of Jax's poorer matchups now

AutoreactiveCD41 votes

I fear any buff they give to Jax, especially early game ones. Mostly cause when Jax is good he's basically a time bomb champion. Eventually, once he gets those items, you're screwed. I know there are things I can do about it, I know there's counterplay early in the game. I just hate playing against these types of champions.

If Riot made changes to Jax, I hope they change this aspect about him.

Jefftiffy1 votes

The only thing I want to say about that Video is it is working as intended for the most part. In fact it may actually be blocking too many things (ezreal Q cannot crit therefore it should not be blocked).

Nasus Q only benefits from its own damage meaning you don't get the AA damage in (only stacks, base, and scaling). Poppy Q is a spell. Jax W is a spell. Rek Q is only doing the base damage no AA damage. MF Q should not be blocked. As for Warwick ult it is because of his ult being used as on hit effects hence why it proc's Botrk and devourer's. Same reason he could block Fiora's old ult (they applied Hydra procs).

Basically any empowered AA should miss. And any spell/spell based AA should land unless it has AA damage tied in. Then the AA damage should be negated and only the spell damage hits.

weeaboomer1 votes

Yes, while we're at it, make it so that he can't attack you while he's spinning his weapon up in the air.....

Hard Penetrator7 votes

Oh man, did you consider working for Riot balance team? You could balance even more champions.

Let's make TF buy new deck every 52 cards. Let's make so Kogmaw can't aa after his E or ult or Q. Let's make so gnar can't aa ppl with f boomerang that doesn't go back. Let's make Zac ignore any form of physical dmg. Let's make Vayne have to dig actual silver for her bolts on SR. Let's make your screen black while playing lee sin.

You have a lot of work to do.

Singing Lark5 votes

While your at that, let's make any AD marksmen who buys a sword item melee.

The Loveless2 votes

maybe he's kicking the opponent in the tummy..?

Rundus11 votes

While I agree completely, I have to say that there should be a certain interaction between his e and stealthed champions that have yet to reveal their presence. It wouldn't make sense thematically for jax to dodge attacks that he can't see coming whatsoever, so a Shaco q crit is understandable, but that brings twitch to mind. If such an interaction was intended/put in, then would Twitch's first auto hit? Would it not because it is ranged and Jax would see it coming? Maybe put an ambush range that can hit through his e from stealth. Then a Rengo would be able to get a hit off using ult. Or Kha. It wouldn't likely win them the fight, but if Jax is one hit from dead, they'd be able to do their job and kill him, but once revealed subsequent autos would be expected to be dodged, as Jax would now see them coming. That's just my idea though. Anyone else wanna weigh in on the idea of a stealth-to-jax e interaction like that?

500 Minions1 votes

The shield should block ALL AA or spell treated as AA like Yasuo Q, and "on hit effect" will not proc. "On attack effect" like lulu passive should still proc.

Jefftiffy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=500 Minions,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VoaNGvvE,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2015-09-02T03:28:58.833+0000)

The shield should block ALL AA or spell treated as AA like Yasuo Q, and "on hit effect" will not proc. "On attack effect" like lulu passive should still proc.

I'm telling you Jax doesn't need it. I started this game in S3 and he was finally dumpstered in S4 (not that he deserved as much nerfing as he got). And he was almost as toxic as Yi except he just didn't die and could burst, DPS, and eat towers like no tomorrow. If you left him alone for about a minute and he can push double the distance Nasus can later in the game.

Sure he needs consistency on his E, but it doesn't need to be buffed. It is toxic in general and contributes to the reason half the champs in the game struggle to kill him past early game.

Zeurth1 votes

It blocks Ezreal's q because it counts as a basic attack. It does block Nasus q's but doesn't block the on hit damage. Didn't read the rest because I'm too tired.

eXtt1 votes

i've actually fed because i thought his e blocked all auto based/on hit abilities. was confused as fuck

Saianna1 votes

Spaghetti code...

I'm quite sure even Rioters aren't sure what Jax E blocks and what doesn't...

To fix that they'd have to untangle whole AA and empowered AA code. Which would most likely make 440436 other parts of code totally broken..

So.. If they really were to fix that they'd have to start anew. With client meant for millions of players.

boss100001 votes

Well we know they will do it eventually, they are planning for it, however the question is a matter of when which will probably be around 2020, but they will most likely get to it eventually.

Saianna1 votes

http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/images/4e2d838beddc6c698b002c8b.jpg

That's my face after reading your post. Not that it's bad or wrong to hope... But if that happens My grandshilds will have their own kids.. And i'll be quite busy with decomposing in grave..

I just don't believe in such fairy tales...

thumbnail91 votes

Either CC and damage goes down or Jax will never survive the 2 offensive item rush

Mob Psycho 1001 votes

It doesnt block Nasus' Q because it blocks only the auto attack part. The Q is bonus damage as if it were a spell.
The damage that comes through from Nasus is bonus damage, but it does dodge the auto attack damage.

The reason it blocks an Ezreal Q, is because it's considered an auto attack, proc'ing on hit effects.

The reason Yas' wind wall can block Vel'koz's W and not Kog's R is because Vel's W is a projectile and Kog's R is basically a missile landing from above.

Z-axis' dont mean shlt in this game unless you're Fizz.

Shaco's Crit should def be blocked though.

That being said, they should def recode his E and get it to block Nasus's Q and other on-hit stuff that still proc's while his E is up.

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