I honesty think this has to be the biggest lie ever told in all of league, cause if you look at his damage and scaling its all super high and has super scaling (nothing is lower than 80%).
So how exactly does lee sin have a bad late game?
I would honestly love to know, what exactly this bad late game is meant to be?
SpecterVonBaren21 votesIt's really more that because of the kind of role Lee usually plays, he typically buys some AD early and then builds tank items late. He doesn't fall off, he just transitions from an early game damage dealer to a late game utility tank.
Godaren1 votesIt's really more that because of the kind of role Lee usually plays, he typically buys some AD early and then builds tank items late. He doesn't fall off, he just transitions from an early game damage dealer to a late game utility tank.
Isn't that the same as falling off though? Think about how less useful a tank is late when the adcs are full build compared to early game where lee can one combo a carry.
SpecterVonBaren2 votesNo, falling off is like Renekton or Pantheon who lose effectiveness as the game goes on in both damage and utility.
Sire Hippington17 votes
MohawkBird3 votes[deleted]
Sire Hippington7 votestons of cc and utillity
A high cd aoe slow that diminishes over the duration, a rather small shield on compareable high cd, and a knockback with conditional aoe kockup on a meleeranged ult. Thats not tons of anything. Especially as his enrgie costs are pretty high if he can't land passive-procs in between, which often is hard to do ion a teamfight, as for peel, you would like to W to an ally and doubletap E for slow, which even with an followup AA takes half his energie. If you want to make an insek, you loose nearly your entire enrgie and use all cds. He can reliably use Q to get into the backline as it can be easily bodyblocked(nidalee has a similar problem come lategame), and if he uses a wardsetp, he becomes predictable, has no shield/escape for a rather long time and can't insec. He has NO CURRENT HEALTH DAMAGE. His missing health isn't as huge and bound to a skillshot, so not always hitting the target youd like, and the max-health damage is bonus health and very conditionaly.
Yes, lee can do alot of different things, but he has to choose. If he goes for an engage with his ult, he won't be able to peel for a long time. And thats if he can engage, which usually requiers a sneaky Q into the backline or a great flank. Again, the main thing with lee and similar champs is that he simply isn't reliable in teamfights. He** can** have a huge impact on a lategame fight, but more often than not, he won't.
63536895_DEL1 votes[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6n73FJ1W,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-11-05T00:01:20.249+0000)
Also, would you call Pant strong lategame? that dude has about the highest ad-scaleings ever seem, on rather low cd and quite high bases aswell. Yet he's known as one of the worst lategame champs, as it's really hard to put those ratios to work without getting obliberated in a teamfight.
begs to differ
Only Play Darius2 votesWell Wukong also has a very strong late game, unlike Pantheon.
Sire Hippington1 votesHow does he differ? because of his Ult haveing 4.4 ad ratio on his ult, over 4 sec. which means with only your E-AS, Wu would deal nearly as much damage to a single target by just useing AAs as by useing ult...
Also, that doesn't mean that pants 5.0 on q+e isn't amongst the highest in the game, cause those two skills together have a ratio that is higher than lees q+e+r, and just as high as talons full combo, inclouding the AA on his Q aswell as the dot(though not E+passive)....
63536895_DEL2 votes[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6n73FJ1W,comment-id=000500020001,timestamp=2015-11-05T14:15:31.272+0000)
How does he differ? because of his Ult haveing 4.4 ad ratio on his ult, over 4 sec. which means with only your E-AS, Wu would deal nearly as much damage to a single target by just useing AAs as by useing ult...
Also, that doesn't mean that pants 5.0 on q+e isn't amongst the highest in the game, cause those two skills together have a ratio that is higher than lees q+e+r, and just as high as talons full combo, inclouding the AA on his Q aswell as the dot....
Comparison is done at lvl 18 ratios
Pantheon's combo Q+W+E = 693 base damge + 5.0 bonus AD + 1.0 AP
Talon's combo Q+W+R = 900 base damage + 4.0 bonus AD, note that his passive will slighty increase the damage on his Q if he used E to engage
Lee SIn's combo Q+E+R = 1140 base damage + 4.8 bonus AD + 8% of missing health
Wukong's combo E+Q+R = 1190 base damage + 5.5 total AD + 0.8 bonus AD, note that he has 30% armor reduction on his Q for 3 seconds
"which means with only your E-AS, Wu would deal nearly as much damage to a single target by just useing AAs as by useing ult..." no because his ult has an 800 base damage
"Also, that doesn't mean that pants 5.0 on q+e isn't amongst the highest in the game, cause those two skills together have a ratio that is higher than lees q+e+r" Lee's Q+E+R deals 500 base damage + 0.5 bonus AD more damage
"and just as high as talons full combo, inclouding the AA on his Q aswell as the dot...." Pantheon has 1.0 higher ratio on his combo than Talon and 207 less base damage. Pantheon would have to have 207 or more bonus AD than Talon to make up the difference, which isn't possible because Talon builds glass canon and Pantheon would get destroyed if he built glass canon.
Considering all this, its no surprise he falls off late game, and unlike Talon, Lee, and Wukong, Pantheon has no disengage.
Halo2 votesTalon calc is off by a sht ton. Its really annoying to calculate it. [zombie-brand-facepalm]
Q will get extra damage from passive and basic attack. When you land q you land a basic attack. (something you forgot) (108 +150)x 1.10= 283.8 damage + the damage over time 283.8+ 50= 333.8
440+ 260+ 333.8= 1033.8
Then you add the E dmg amp 997.2x 1.15+ 25.8 (P dmg amp)= 1172.58
His whole combo level 18 would do 1172.58 damage and have a ratio of (0.83+ 1.20+ 1.5)x 1.15 + 0.5= 4.5595 We also have to add the normal ratio from his basic attack on q wich is 1.00+ 0.15+ 0.10= 1.25
So bonus ad ratio Ca 4.6 bonus AD + AD ratio of 1.25 And total damage Ca 1170
[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
Live2LetDie14 votesIt is because he is an all in champ. Think of LB, Riven, etc.. who all fall off hard late game. If your a champ that has to dive in there you either are going to have tank items or going to die instantly.
Lee has two choices, build tank and become a late game utility jung, or go damage, dive in and get insta killed before doing anything. CC destorys all these champs.
Toastey62 votesLB and Riven falling off late game
hm
MisterHealYoGirl13 votesThey totally do. If they snowball out of control, they can really screw you up, especially in 1v1s, but if a Riven makes even the smallest mistake in a teamfight, she's going to get obliterated. Same with Lee Sin: he has high AD scalings, so he can be built assassin, but if he goes in, he's not getting out, and he doesn't have any reliable way of getting to the backline, assuming that the carries and tanks are staying roughly in position. This leaves his best build as a tank, which means that all he has going for him is decent damage for a tank and okay utility with his kick.
Toastey8 votesyes, because how a champion performs in teamfights is the sole determining factor of how good they are with 6 items
Sire Hippington6 votesit actually is the main factor...
BluePolarizer11 votesit essentially is. if you suck at teamfights when 6 slotted, that means you are a detriment to your team when grouped in the late game and can be collapsed on if you split. In the ultra late game, being collapsed on is gg.
Toastey4 votesyes, because split pushing is always done alone with no wards. god forbid your team be pressuring any other section of the map while you draw multiple people away from them.
BluePolarizer6 votesthere's always counter warding and straight up running down a lane with righteous glory/talisman. splitpushing requires alot of setup to be effective, and that setup might not always be there.
MisterHealYoGirl3 votesThe current meta is very much teamfight-oriented, so although it's not the only factor, it's definitely critical.
Ralanr2 votesBy "in position" do you mean "In the way of his skill shot"? Because that's how he gets in and gets out of situations.
MisterHealYoGirl5 votesJust 'gets in'. But yeah. Resonating Strike has a low missile speed, so it can be dodged without too much trouble. If the carries are standing behind minions and tanks relative to him, they shouldn't have a terrible time. They just need to stay aware of where he is, like with Blitzcrank.
LaowPing2 votes^This. His early game is good due his insane ganking ability and good base damage. Once people start grouping he has problems picking people off and has to commit to all engages. People can peel him off if he tries to go in unless he pulls an insect with the most godlike flanking.
Champions falling off isn't just about scaling, it's about how well they perform in each stage of the game. Lucian falls off late game because his team fighting isn't as good as his laning phase, same for Riven, so they have to get far ahead in lane that they delete people when it's time to team fight.
The Bardic Gay3 votesWhile I'm not trying to say "Nerf lee sin!!!!" by any means, but for the record, resonating strike has a missile speed of 1750 units per second, which not low in the least. Only a few abilities in the game exceed that.
It's in the upper-mid teir of Missile speeds in the game. Actual low missile speed skill would be something Like Zyra's E, which has a missile speed of 1050 units per second (and rightfully so)
MisterHealYoGirl1 votesI'm fairly certain that Zyra's E has the lowest missile speed of all projectiles in the game, bar none. But basically, if you judge him by his engage potential, lategame, he's just a worse Blitzcrank. If you can expect your ADC to dodge hooks, you can expect them to dodge Resonating Strikes.
The Bardic Gay1 votesLissandra E and Anivia Q actually tie for that position at 850 units per second each. The more you know!
If we only look at lee's ability to engage, then yes, but Lee's very versatile, so it's not so simple.
junglerboy161 votesExcept Lee can get in and out whenever he freaking pleases.
2 dashes, hard disengage, and a slow to boot. Yeah, he can walk out of almost any situation where he isn't instagibed and/or chain CCed for more than 4 seconds.
MisterHealYoGirl2 votesOne of this dashes is only to an enemy, so it's not particularly useful for getting out of situations, plus he just used it to get INTO the situation. His W can get him out of things, but for that to work, someone else has to be engaging with him; nobody not involved in a teamfight is going to be within Safeguard range of the backline. His kick is definitely solid disengage, but it's also most of his damage combo, so if he has to use it defensively, he loses out a lot of his damage potential for the next 60 seconds. Listen, I'm not saying that Lee Sin is bad, by any measure. I'm just trying to explain how his early game dominance doesn't translate as well into the late game as someone like Tristana or Orianna. Their playstyle stays the same, just getting stronger over time, but Lee Sin's changes from a fighter to a tank, meaning that his damage isn't as relevant in the late-game.
junglerboy162 votesWard hop says hello.
Also, having to use his kick as a disengage is absolutely fine, since he can kick one enemy into the others, dealing even more damage and half the time, that is enough to finish a low health target.
Say he goes in and bursts the ADC with his Q>Q>E for a fair amount of damage. then he gets CCed and has to burn his ult to get out. He can either kick the ADC away into the rest of their team if they are still there next to him, most of the time killing them, or if they ran off, he can kick any other champ into the ADC for even more damage, while still disengaging safely.
Basically what I'm saying is using his ult as disengage doesn't mean it can't also be used to kill a carry at the same time.
Of course he's not phenomenal late game, there's no denying that, but Lee does not fall off nearly as hard as everyone seems to think.
MisterHealYoGirl1 votes"Falls off late game" is not the same as "is bad late game". It helps to think about every champion as a combination of risk and reward. Let's take Twitch as an example: he starts out high risk, low reward, since he's a weak laner with no escapes. As the game progresses, however. His risk decreases (due to the extra range from his ult) and his reward increases (since his damage scales hard and his ult is such a great steroid). Since his risk/reward ratio improves over the course of the game, we say that he scales well.
If we look at Lee Sin, he starts off low risk, high reward, since his ganks are so strong and he's a fast clearer and strong duelist. As the game goes on, his reward remains about the same (since his percent health damage remains relevant, and his bases are fairly high) but his risk increases, since the chance of him taking a bad engage and blowing up gets higher; he can no longer just fling himself head first into every fight. Since his risk/reward ratio worsens as the game goes on, we say that he falls off late game.
Just because he falls off late game does NOT mean that he's weak then; when played well, his success case is still really strong. It's just that he has to be more careful, since his success case becomes harder to achieve.
junglerboy161 votesOkay, THIS I can agree with, thank you for clarifying, I was confused about what you meant.
Dengeden14 votes[{quoted}](name=Toasted Pigeon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6n73FJ1W,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-11-04T23:23:52.106+0000)
hm
Good point.
Borbland2 votes2 letters of truth.
You're a genius.
Retillin2 votesWhat Jungler doesn't "fall off late"? I keep hearing Lee does, yet the only ones that DON'T seem to fall off late (Amumu/Sej/ect...) are tanks. So either an early lane pressure jungler (Lee/Rek) that can build tank and still do well (as we saw at Worlds) do not fall off as much as people say they do, or I don't understand what "falls off late" means.
ChaoticPinecone6 votesActually, what we saw at worlds was games being decided way before lategame. How many games did the jungler hit 6 items? (Keep in mind that Junglers in general benefit from a very cost effective first item and at worlds every single one bought a Sightstone, which is a fairly cheap item). I actually dont recall any game the jungler was so far in their build they upgraded to Ruby Sightstone.
Trias0003 votesI think in lategame they sell the sightstone
ChaoticPinecone10 votesSome junglers have a bad lategame, and Lee Sin is one of them. Some junglers have a decent lategame, like Trundle. And some junglers have an amazing lategame, like Amumu. Are you trying to convince me that Lee Sin's lategame is as strong as Amumu's?
People need to stop equating "bad late game" to "useless". It seems that you want a magic switch that turns him into a minion after 45 minutes. Just because he has a "bad" lategame doesnt mean he is useless, Even the worst scaling champions (e.g. Pantheon) have some strengths lategame. And some of the worst early game champions (Vlad, Kog) can have some strengths before getting items.
junglerboy161 votesI'm sorry, did you just rate trundle as having a "decent" late game?
He's one of the top duelists in the game and can win almost any 1v2 he pleases.
Not to mention tower killing speed and insane team utility.
ChaoticPinecone1 votesGotta ask it again - are you trying to convince me that Trundle's lategame is as strong as Amumu's?
Trundle is strong in some situations, sure. He can splitpush. He can 1v1 or even 2v1. His ult is great for helping your team shred tanks. And his pillar is some nice zone control. But his lack of initiation, low range, and single-target damage is a hindrance.
Amumu has a 1100 range initiation, AoE % max health damage per second, MR shred, and a huge AoE lockdown. One good Amumu ult chained with all your AoE abilities wins you the game if it goes late. The same cannot be said with Trundle.
junglerboy161 votesReally, you're comparing apples and oranges.
Amumu is an initiator tank.
Trundle is a DPS fighter/anti-tank.
They both have different jobs and both are exceptional in the late game, they just do different things when they get there.
ChaoticPinecone1 votesI'm comparing one jungler to another, and asking which youd rather have on your team at 50+ minutes into the game. Its similar to asking, "would you rather have Swain or Akali on your team at 50+ minutes into the game?" "Would you rather have Pantheon or Vlad?" "Corki or Jinx?"
Nobody is saying they have the same jobs. I'm asking which is more valuable at 50 minutes in most situations - a tanky frontline debuffer or a tanky frontline initiator?
junglerboy161 votesIn that case I'd take the trundle.
I've won a game in a matter of 2 minutes (yes, I mean that literally) of pushing from one inner turret to an exploding nexus and three dead champions at my feet. Amumu is too reliant on his team for my taste.
Only Play Darius7 votesTrust me the scalings are insane but he still has a relatively bad late game, I honestly don't know how it works out like that but if you have ever played him or closely observed him you would know he doesn't do much late game, possibly because once teamfights roll around he is forced to build tank and as such isn't able to really abuse those scalings.
Slamurai Jack3 votesLee Sin is too squishy to really teamfight late game if he keeps buidling damage and his damage falls off massively as time goes on if he doesn't keep building damage. Same reason 
all fall off late game. Lee Sin has far lower than average utility than normal tanks when built tank, much lower damage than other bruisers when built bruiser, and is far less reliable than normal assassins when built AD.
FistOfSharkiesha2 votesCompared to other fighters/assassins/tanks he has only one very small AS boost and 1 form of hard CC. I don't think he scales that bad, but he certainly doesn't scale as well as Udyr, Warwick, Xin Shao, etc. He's definitely left Shaco in the dust though. Just as good at early ganking without being laughable late game.
SiG DxD2 votessame thing as vayne has low attack range 550 LOL
Poske5 votes[{quoted}](name=SiG DxD,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=6n73FJ1W,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2015-11-05T08:10:30.529+0000)
same thing as
vayne has low attack range550 LOL
when people say vayne has low range they mean** SHE HAS NOTHING OVER 550 RANGE** so not just autoattack
Shocked that there are people who still dont get it why Vayne has low range
Even if you compare her to graves/lucian/quinn they still have higher range duo to their abilities. Even after rework i ll consider graves a champion with longer range then vayne. Since he has Q,W,R
