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Evolving R on Kha'Zix, what if... [A proposal]

Visigoth··75 votes·4,949 views

What if evolving R on Kha'Zix completely negated isolation for the duration. Seeing as how right now his ult in general is pretty bad, this would make it pretty worth it to evolve, and bring him back into the jungle. Seeing as how Riot refuses to give the execute back or reduce isolation range, I see this fit as a compromise. For the next 15 seconds (the time Kha'Zix has to use his charges), Kha'Zix would now do full isolation damage.

So how is this good, and not_ broken_?

This change would be good because it once again allows Kha'Zix to tower dive and be able to teamfight, at the cost of his ultimate.

However, I don't see how this would be broken for 2 main reasons. The isolation removal won't do much unless you have evolved claws, and not taking Wings until 16 would be a huge hit to his teamfighting and his chase/escape.

So while this means Kha'Zix will be able to dive and fight freely for 15 seconds, he can't utilize to its fullest extent until late game.

Lastly, with this change, Kha'Zix's ultimate will no longer go on cooldown until he uses all charges or after the 15 seconds. However no matter when charges are used, you always have 15 seconds of no isolation range.

This change would finally bring Kha'Zix back to how he was at the beginning of Season 4, but with less broken. He would again have a choice in what to evolve in what order. Q for damage? E for high mobility? R for no isolation? W for poke? It wouldn't be "Q>E>W" every single game anymore. Now he truly can evolve and adapt.

Thank you for your time.

57 Comments

junglerboy1622 votes

I still think they should revert him to his release kit and then number tweak him from there. Everything about it was healthy, just statistically overpowered (his Q was healthy, had good reasons to be evolved, and only needed number nerfs, W was good, had a reason to be evolved, and again only needed number nerfs, E was good, had a reason to be evolved, and has only received number nerfs, R was Ok, had a niche reason to be evolved, and needed slight number buffs). Number nerfs to that kit instead of the plethora of weird changes they made to him since then could allow him to actually be an assassin again, instead of another gimmicky pathetic "early pressure can't do any other role" jungler.

Auryiel1 votes

His evolved W proccing his passive was not healthy

junglerboy161 votes

How so?

Honestly, do you have any explanation or are you just spouting word of mouth that Riot said about nerfing it? It gave him a way to apply damage to enemies, and if it was just too damaging, then nerf the numbers. Nothing about applying his passive's enhanced slow and a little bonus damage is unhealthy, heck they basically reverted that change halfway when they made it slow enemies by 50% instead of 30% last season. If anything, the thing that made it too good was its broken interaction with Muramana procs where it still treated each spike fired as a single target ability, when it should have counted as an AoE/multi-target ability.

Auryiel1 votes

Long-range, massive AoE magic+physical damage CC on an assassin is not something that should exist

His evolved W should do something really good when KZ is close to his target instead of making him more poke oriented. Maybe give KZ his passive back when he's in the heal radius of his W? His evolved W being all about poke just diverts from what the champion is supposed to do and dilutes his identity.

EVERYTHING else about Kha'Zix makes you want to get in the thick of things and strike swiftly, then gtfo and lurk around until you go back in again. Poke just doesn't fit the champion and historically it's been either overbearing or total shit.

Kha'Zix is a predator who lurks around, waiting for his prey to misstep so he can tear them apart in the blink of an eye. There's nothing about him that says ''whittle them down''. The only reason his W procced his passive in the first place was to enable that playstyle by giving him access to a slow that would let him close in on his target. Ultimately, his evolved W has never been balanced because it either enables an assassin to do something he shouldn't or it's too weak to be justifiable as an evolve.

tl;dr His evolved W proccing his passive gives KZ a role he shouldn't have when it's strong and is otherwise plain trash.

Saianna1 votes

Isn't that exactly the same for champions like Rengar & Evelynn? They got nerf...reworked instead of number tweaks.

junglerboy161 votes

That's because for them, their original kits were broken, not just numerically strong. Reneger just had to mash QQQ to delete someone in the blink of an eye, and his core gameplay revolved around building a snowball item that nobody liked to build. The rework they gave him didn't really fix much of anything, but it is healthier than what our stab tabby used to be. I can't really speak to evelyn or her rework(s?), since at that point I either wasn't playing the game or wasn't actively aware of champion balance the way I am now. I honestly have no idea if people would consider old evelyn balanced or not, but Kha'zix has gone through SOOOO many weird buffs, nerfs, and mechanics changes that to really bring back Kha'zix they'd have to start from square one.

Saianna1 votes

I disagree on Rengars part. True he had only to spam Q. But Riots rework didn't change it at all. He still relies on Q which is just alot weaker. Also they have changed his identity from assassin to bruiser/fighter.

On Evelynn part: She used to have normal ability stealth (max 1minute) which made stun targets. She also had a heavy nuke. I and rest of minority asked for Evelynn nerfs (to balance her) instead of rework. Riot had taken her identity as assassin to figher-tank type (and then nerfed her 3 times more)

HeWolf8 votes

I think that this would kick W out of the way and make Q>E>R the only viable path. I'd change this idea to a reduction of the isolation range, instead of negate it. Anyway, his problems come at early levels (post-16 he's a beast, he has so much damage).

I once had this idea that they could make a change to empower the abilities depending on the order you evolve them, but that would take almost as much balance effort as reworking him, so it wouldn't be worth it.

CubedJustice1 votes

W is viable?

Profirix1 votes

His W is a better choice if you need a little more peel. It grants a slightly improved slow. Personally I think it should also grant increased damage.

CubedJustice1 votes

I've always found that the Q, E, and R are much too important to upgrade the W. But each to his own.

Profirix3 votes

I agree with this. His early game pressure is atrocious, but later his ability to pick targets off quickly is decent. If however the enemy is primarily bruiser-tanks he is total garbage the whole game. He really needs that execution on his Q... the fact that they removed this is what turned him into something less than viable at pretty much all stages of the game. It is hard enough to isolate an opponent. It is even harder to kill them before they are no longer isolated.

qetzel6 votes

I would say no. It removes counterplay to Kha'Zix - grouping. Even if it wouldn't be a problem until level 16, it would be a problem at and after level 16. There should always be counterplay.

Visigoth4 votes

{quoted}

I would say no. It removes counterplay to Kha'Zix - grouping. Even if it wouldn't be a problem until level 16, it would be a problem at and after level 16. There should always be counterplay.

forcing him to blow ult and then disengaging until he no longer has the always isolate. or just kill him since he's squishy as fuck anyways.

Profirix1 votes

While I do not agree with the proposition of removing isolation, I do see a problem with having him basically be required to build complete glass cannon to be useful. Kha'zix needs to blow his ult or his E in order to get into position of an isolated target. If he kills the target and has evolved E, he can get away.

The problem comes from his teamfight capability. He basically CANNOT WHATSOEVER get into an active teamfight. If you try and have opponents that are not half-braindead he will die instantly. The window in which to kill a target with Kha'zix's current skill-set is so small that many times it isn't even possible. Something needs to be done to either extend the window of isolation or make it so he is not completely reliant on it to do damage.

Riot even mentioned in the patch notes back when they first introduced the execution on his unisolated evolved Q that they did not want him to be so reliant on it because the opportunity was so chance. I really do not understand why they can leave a champion so shattered like this. It really is impossible to play him in any decent game. Your team either comes out ahead and you can ride your successful lanes to get fed or you play anywhere from a challenging game to a tough game and pretty much lose every single time.

AsasinCreedNova1 votes

having him basically be required to build complete glass cannon to be useful. Kha'zix needs to blow his ult or his E in order to get into position of an isolated target. If he kills the target and has evolved E, he can get away.

The problem comes from his teamfight capability. He basically CANNOT WHATSOEVER get into an active teamfight. If you try and have opponents that are not half-braindead he will die instantly. The window in which to kill a target with Kha'zix's current skill-set is so small that many times it isn't even possible. Something needs to be done to either extend the window of isolation or make it so he is not completely reliant on it to do damage.

Riot even mentioned in the patch notes back when they first introduced the execution on his unisolated evolved Q that they did not want him to be so reliant on it because the opportunity was so chance. I really do not understand why they can leave a champion so shattered like this. It really is impossible to play him in any decent game. Your team either comes out ahead and you can ride your successful lanes to get fed or you play anywhere from a challenging game to a tough game and pretty much lose every single time.

Profirix1 votes

Were you trying to say something here? This is just a shortened version of a direct quote.

Void Valkon1 votes

Thats always an option against every champ. Also, when you are strong enough to force him to retreat after ult, then he won't engage on you anyway. Besides, Qetzel is still right, it removes the counterplay on him. Enemy is alone? Great, I can kill that guy. There are 2 enemies? No problem, I press R and then I'm also good to go.

It kinda destroys his identity as predator who hunts for target that have no allies nearby.

Daedalus8715 votes

I think it would be interesting to have a change similar to this, but I would be hesitant to potentially give Kha'zix 30% uptime (23.8% if it doesn't go on cd until after use) on ignoring isolation, and it would potentially turn him into a bruiser.

So how about Kha'zix ignores isolation for 3 seconds after leaving stealth? It still keeps his assassinish feeling while preventing him building bruiser.

Also if this change goes through, E/Q > Q/E > R would be the evolution path taken 99% of the time, so it doesn't really solve the "need to make meaningful decisions" aspect.

+1 for the idea

Void Valkon4 votes

First of all, I'm a pretty huge fan of kha myself (hey, i even changed my name so it contains the "Void" now) so I will start off my saying why this would make kha OP as fuck: You know that kha has his Q every 3 seconds and that with his evolved claws, has an bonus AD Ratio of about 260%? Having guaranteed isolated damage for a whole 15 seconds makes you able to twoshot most squishies with 2 Qs, regardless of the situation. For a comparison another AD assassin, zed: Hitting Q + E with a shadow deals damage worth 230% bonus AD.

I'm not talking about the tank kha or bruiser kha, no, I am talking about the AD stacking assassin Kha. Jumping in, Q, stealth for 2 secs to wait until Q comes back up, Q again -> dead. Then jump to the next one and repeat.

But I get what you want to say. You want kha to have more windows of opportunity. So how about making his isolation range scale passively with his ult level? Something along 500 - 450 - 400 would be a fair tradeoff.

Jamnon1 votes

i like the range scaling idea but it might feel weird. good suggestion tho

Felvyne3 votes

No. Not because I don't like the change, it's because then it becomes a must having Q evolved if you evolve R, and probly evolved Q would become nerfed

Crett1 votes

{quoted}

No. Not because I don't like the change, it's because then it becomes a must having Q evolved if you evolve R, and probly evolved Q would become nerfed

But change is good Khazix

Felvyne2 votes

Veigar Not always

theragingnerd3 votes

REDUCE THE RANGE no range is broken

Smitty Manjensen3 votes

This would be broken like hell, his isolation damage is extremely op but without that damage he is useless, they need to reduce the damage and do something else for him.

HailFire Dragon2 votes

HELL YES

GuiltyGecko2 votes

Gonna be honest. The main reason I evolve R is to turn Kha into that stealth black color.

thinking man2 votes

giving him a nuke that does around 2k damage but only situationally for counterplay reasons no situational requirement is a shit idea

okay I didn't actually read the post and I didn't realize just how terrible this was until after reading it

15 seconds for your 2,000 late-game damage nuke to have no situational requirement is completely retarded. Trying to sell him as having to make an interesting choice because of a specific cancer combo that is stupidly broken isn't good.

MeesterMoo1 votes

Salty

grLKQ9ma0o1 votes

Preach.

This is a big reason why you can't do this.

Make his evolved W lower isolation radius on all targets hit by 100-150. Has counterplay, has a specific role.

41noob2 votes

this may be the worst balance change idea that i've ever seen.

bulletbear1 votes

Great idea. My only issue with this is that Khazix struggles early and mid game. His late game can still explode enemy carries pretty easy if they leave the group. Meaning that this change wouldn't effect him very much untill late game making him (in my opinion/random guess) overpowered late game but still underpowered early.

So what if this change effected his ult at all times? But instead it only gave isolation bonus when Khazix is Stealthed or for X seconda after he breaks stealth. This would give players a reason to evolve R without making it a requirement as it would let you have the isolation bonus for longer. I'm fairly certain that this would make Khazix overpowered once he hit level 6 so his numbers would need to be tweaked.

I like your idea. But making it only apply to the evolved R pretty much forces people to chose evolved R instead of W. This at least let's gives you a choice between R for the isolation and W for the poke.

Ultimately this is a better idea than having evolved W apply temporary isolation upon impact. Because this just further drives in the requirement to evolve everything except R.

I'm just taking a shot in the dark so let me know what you guys think about this.

Profirix1 votes

{quoted}

Great idea. My only issue with this is that Khazix struggles early and mid game. His late game can still explode enemy carries pretty easy if they leave the group. Meaning that this change wouldn't effect him very much untill late game making him (in my opinion/random guess) overpowered late game but still underpowered early.

So what if this change effected his ult at all times? But instead it only gave isolation bonus when Khazix is Stealthed or for X seconda after he breaks stealth. This would give players a reason to evolve R without making it a requirement as it would let you have the isolation bonus for longer. I'm fairly certain that this would make Khazix overpowered once he hit level 6 so his numbers would need to be tweaked.

I like your idea. But making it only apply to the evolved R pretty much forces people to chose evolved R instead of W. This at least let's gives you a choice between R for the isolation and W for the poke.

Ultimately this is a better idea than having evolved W apply temporary isolation upon impact. Because this just further drives in the requirement to evolve everything except R.

I'm just taking a shot in the dark so let me know what you guys think about this.

Why should the entire champion be based on whether or not an enemy screws up? That premise right there is what makes horrible champions.

bulletbear1 votes

That's why I'm suggesting making the isolation apply to his cults at all times

thePandev1 votes

I don't think jungle is the right spot for him. There is a reason why tanks dominate jungle right now. Gromp, Cinderhulk and CC/Initiation is the way to go ATM, Kha provides none of those. As cliché as it sounds, he needs to be formed into a mid and or top laner, because that's just where assassins thrive right now.

Profirix1 votes

I do agree that he is not viable in the jungle, but I don't even think he is viable in lane. Isolation works against him so badly.

Jot Te1 votes

I agree completely on this.

Immortal Strife1 votes

Just give Kha the option to evolve at level 1-6-11-16, I've always though Kha should have access to all of his evolutions. Kha is finally in such a mediocre state currently, it may be time to finally give Kha a full kit.

Trampské Cigáno1 votes

He has maximal amount of 3 evolves, but he can get the 4th one if he wins The Hunt is On! event, so thats why he hasnt 4 evolves standardly, rito wanted some action to this :)

Flemman1 votes

A good thing would be to remove the "only with rengar" event and make him chose a target at the start of the game. When kha won, as usual he acces to his 4 evolution, when he lose the target get an isolation free buff that stay all game.

YoungFarmer1 votes

I'm surprised they haven't I could think of some pretty big LCS plays for Khazix

MaizeCraze1 votes

The main issue I see with this is that Kha would again have reason to build off-tank bruiser instead of pure assassin. Instead of having 50% damage reduction for 6 seconds, Kha would now have 6 seconds of stealth and 5-7 (depending on CDR) Q's that deal insane damage.

HeisenWolf's opinion on skill evolution is the same as mine.

Migrañaboy1 votes

I'd prefer how he was before now in this meta.

I somewhat like your idea OP but sounds like k6 would be always Q>R>E and W evolution would only be useful on blind pick unlucky situations.

Jamnon1 votes

Khazix is in a weird position. he is supposed to be an evolving thing which can supposedly adapt to whatever arises, but his evolutions dont provide this to a degree. I get his passive, hes a lone hunter... but does that motivate him to not partake in team fights?

It feels bad that i want to evolve the same things in the same order, every time.

Scorpionex1 votes

there's three things they can do to make kha better

  1. Take away isolation on towers

  2. Take away isolation on minions

  3. just reduce the isolation radius in general

Now 1 wouldn't be ideal because kha would just evolve e first and literally tower dive you at level 6

2 I think is actually one of the better things that can be done since its kinda ridiculous that all an enemy has to do to shortcut your damage is walk next to a minion line.

The reduced isolation radius is I think the best because he needs more windows of opportunity to do what he does.

Personally though I think they need to scrap his passive because something that works so randomly should not be in a competitive game at least that's my pov.

4nth0l0gy1 votes

I still want him to be able to evolve a tank stat. I mean hell, he's supposed to be ADAPTIVE. Why do I always have to build him like an assassin?

Norlamin III1 votes

they should remove all of his evolution, and remote his jumping.

then he would be balanced.

grLKQ9ma0o1 votes

It would bring back Tank Kha'zix, which Riot knows they don't want. The reason I say that is because you would have to survive for 15 seconds, and because you would function more as a sustained damage dealer than as an assassin, which he should be. You'd build brutalizer-Cleaver/hexdrinker-Maw maybe Tiamat-Hydra, then deal enough damage to just build Randuin's, Banshee's/Spirit Visage, Merc Treads, and maybe a GA and be a scarier bruiser than Irelia and Jax combined.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

They would have to nerf his iso damage heavily if they did this, and if they nerfed it heavily then whats the point of having it in the first place?

I think isolation is supposed to be 'the' mechanic for kha zix. Taking it away because you hit level 11 or 16 seems like it would push him into having an absurdly strong late game.

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