Everyone complains about all the makrsmen

Kaìju··3 votes·381 views

But several have been nerfed and are struggling already. I'm all for making marksmen more fair, but we shouldn't demand they all be nerfed it the dirt. Ashe and Cait are already at a 48% winrate, and that's based off OP.GG who tracks higher tier players who should know how to win with less optimal picks. Lucian and As were forced out of bot they are so bad. The game is scaling too fast I agree, and Twitch/Trist/Kog are all out of hand, but blanket nerfs are a bad idea. If we were to blanket nerf the damage of every single ADC, what would be the point of Ashe?

20 Comments

GinoSoldier2 votes

ADCs need a role rebalance/change, and an overhaul of the entire crit system. Until that happens, i just can't bring myself to care if every single ADC becomes completely useless and other champions take over the botlane.

Crits need to work with champion kits to provide skill expression in champions, and their roster as a whole needs to be diversified between early/mid/late game focused champions so that they're no longer automatically the endgame gods they are now.

Kaìju1 votes

So you would ruin any fun that some of us have, even if we aren't the ones abusing the broken picks over balance? Because that's what I'm getting out of this.

GinoSoldier1 votes

Considering purely the competitive aspect of the game, yes, that's what i'm saying. Because many (not all) ADCs rely on Crit Chance as a randomizer to gain bonus damage and win trades they may not deserve to win at all. The ridiculous amount of damage they typically output late game also warps the entire game beyond recognition, as sustained damage becomes sustained burst, and classes who are meant to burst become far less relevant than they should be.

Considering the 'fun' aspect, i simply accept that Riot will take time to work on this, and is unwilling to send an entire class of champions to the dumpster while they work.

I find hilarious however, that you do not believe the ADC class as a whole is broken, as they have warped and negatively impacted the entire game since season 1 through their 'intended role'.

Kaìju1 votes

If you think the entire class is an issue then why did two early game marksmen get put in mid and jungle? Because that seems pretty not OP to me.

GinoSoldier2 votes

Taking ADCs out of botlane is probably one of the best things Riot can do balance-wise. By forcing ADC champions to compete on an even level with other champion classes, it becomes easier to balance out in relation to those other classes. I say bring the Ezreal, Varus and Lucian mid, bring the Kindred, Kalista, Jinx, Graves jungle. Bring Ashe and MF supports, and bring Vayne and Quinn toplane.

Every time an ADC was brought out of botlane in their regular state, they required gutting due to game balance issues. This indicates that the ADC class as a whole is indeed too strong and a major issue.

Kaìju1 votes

How do you make an immobile marksman solo viable though? They would have to have much more spell power I think and at that point you aren't even an auto attack based carry.

GinoSoldier1 votes

Marksmen are already near-viable in a variety of roles; Ashe and Kalista for example only need a couple kit tweaks and some itemization help to be on par with most enchanters out there.

Half the mages in the game are immobile and viable. Something can be worked out, i believe.

As far as Crit goes; I simply think every ADC should have a mechanic in their kit that rewards them with crit damage if they succeed something. An already existing example would be Caitlyn's headshots, instead of them dealing 'bonus damage', they'd deal a properly balanced amount of Crit damage. A different example would be to give one Crit attack to Sivir when she successfully spellshields.

Kaìju1 votes

What minor tweak would make Kalista as viable a support as Lulu?

GinoSoldier1 votes

Kalista has the very unique ability to be able to take out her Soulbound from ANY kind of crowd control, bad situation or dive with her ult. Kalista also provides excellent extra vision through her ghosts, and has above average mobility. Her early game Q poke is also quite strong, provided you level that up first, and can set up easy bursts of damage through AA/Q/Rend with Thunderlords.

Minor tweak would be this; Currently, when both her and her partner hit the same target, bonus damage occurs for Kalista. If that damage could be reversed to be coming from her soulbound instead, a Kalista/anyone botlane could easily coordinate to have perfect CS every time.

Item-wise, she can either go for the Stoneborn Pact/Ardent Censer route (especially now that Censer procs on self) by using cleverly timed Rends or through Relic Shield, which she can also proc through Rend. She can also rush Executioner's Calling for early game grievous wounds, making her a decent anti-Enchanter pick.

Of course, AD support itemization pretty much straight doesn't exist right now, but there's still ways to be useful through on-hit effects like Black Cleaver, Wit's End, Executioner's Calling and Frozen Mallet, combined with Runaan's to spread the procs around.

Kaìju1 votes

You know what. You've swayed me, I see your point and can agree with it. Congratulations, you actually won a debate on the internet. How how would Marksmen with no strong wave clear and no mobility go to other lanes? Or would only say 4 be playable outside of bot? Would Sivir, Jinx, and Kog be made to go mid?

GinoSoldier1 votes

The main point that needs to be done, assuming we're going for a complete do-over of the ADC class for balance purposes, is to shift a lot of their lategame power for early and mid-game, depending on individual champions so that they no longer require babysitting. That means base HP buffs, base damage buffs, abilities with stronger base damage, scaling nerfs to their kits, and nerfs to most of their methods for AD/Crit/Lethality stacking.

Assuming Riot did perform the kind of Crit rework i've suggested earler on, it'd make a near-perfect lever to control when and how ADCs attain their powerspikes.

Some, like Kog'Maw, Kindred and Tristana who are 'hypercarries' can keep most of their late-game awesomeness, but could still use a slightly better early game to be able to get there on their own.

Many others, like Graves, Vayne, Sivir, and Xayah should likely shine most in the midgame where most of the brawling occurs as they can use their innate defenses or mobility to survive fights.

Others, like Caitlyn, Miss Fortune and Lucian would do best in the early game, where they can bully the enemy laners and gain some amount of snowballing.

An example of how Kog'Maw could be made viable mid would be to grant him a Crit autoattack every time he lands his R, limiting his early-game power but giving him a power spike when most Midlaners become most dangerous. (keeping in mind his overall early game has been slightly buffed from current)

Jinx in her current state really only needs a way to sustain Fishbones' mana cost to be viable anywhere. Riot could either buff Manamune to start out stronger, with the same end result. Another option would be to create a mini-Essence Reaver (like Exec's Calling is a mini Mortal Reminder) that gives champions a bit of mana back on champion hit. Or they could lower Fishbones' mana cost too, that'd work.

Death by Glamour2 votes

Crit and to a lesser extent lifesteal need to be looked at.

Fed up with adcs being better drain tanks than vlad and mundo

Kaìju1 votes

And they should not be able to, but not every ADC is a problem is my point.

Death by Glamour1 votes

Aren't they?

Just because three of them are dominating doesn't mean their isn't a problem with the rest.

Edit the only one I would consider weak right now is miss fortune. She is a poor lane bully and a terrible scaler outside of being an ult bot

Kaìju1 votes

So then you think Ezreal and Lucian aren't weak, despite being forced out of bot?

Death by Glamour2 votes

No.

Lucian is fine. Let's not mindlessly buff champions rather than nerf the ones who cause the issues. That's how this all started.

ez is just a victim of the meta. Games don't last long enough for him to get a tear stacked. Do you think we should just buff him or actually look at increasing game durations.

Kaìju1 votes

If games are so short why is Lucian not the pick of the century? He's all early game.

Death by Glamour1 votes

Because a 2 item twitch/trist/kog even caitlyn is better.

The balance is away to hell, buffing Lucian is the best thing to do on paper but in reality you just replace one stupid thing with another who is arguably fat more infuriating to play agaimst

Kaìju1 votes

If hyper carries are better than Lucian at two items how is he as you described fine?

Death by Glamour1 votes

Because he is fine, he doesn't need buffs. They need nerfed

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