RFC is not the problematic item, Shiv is

Kaìju·1/5/2018, 7:39:05 AM·35 votes·2,778 views

I see a lot of people talking about Cannon Shiv and I agree it is problematic. But the way I see it, is that Shiv is the problem item.

Cannon gives 25% faster charge time, and one shot with up to 150 extra range. Who would this item benefit alone? Marksmen who only need one auto to start their job or do their job. Ashe can start chasing with the extra range slow. Draven can chunk a squishy out of position. Jhin can finish off a low health enemy.

Now who benefits from Shiv? AOE critical strike magic damage. It let's you chunk mayne two people with one hit, while adding mixed damage which makes itemization more difficult.

The reality in my opinion is that Shiv should be toned down in some way, and Cannon left mostly alone. Shiv gives marksmen, who are designed to be a relatively single target DPS class access to AOE burst damage. This doesn't even go into the fact that it also gives great wave clear, which is meant to be a niche that Hurricane gives but Hurricane is largely ignored on some of its bets users because it just gets out paced. Even champions like Ashe and Twitch who have great synergy with Runaans do to having strong on hit effects generally would do more damage if they just get Statikk because why proc an on hit effect when you can proc them with being dead as shit.

TLDR: Change Shiv, don't change Cannon much.

31 Comments

Daddy Ants1/5/2018, 12:13:02 PM11 votes

I'm an ADC Main (Vayne Twitch Jinx) and I have a suggestion.

item 3087 either needs it's damage to champions lowered or it's ability to crit removed.

{quoted}

lv 18 deal 400 AOE magic dmg seems fair

Most games end when I'm like level 15-16.

Salron1/5/2018, 8:21:50 AM9 votes

Shiv RFC didn't become an issue until Riot added the 25% faster charge time to RFC

Spoofghoul1/5/2018, 10:10:52 PM5 votes

Both

item 3087 and item 3085 should not be a thing in the first place it removes major weakness from ADC's

And lifesteal should not scale off of crit but just total AD Sustain sure, full health per auto attack fuck off

There are many things wrong with adc itemization but there are simply to many adc mains on the balance team for these things to ever get balanced properly

VoraciousX1/6/2018, 10:54:47 AM3 votes

My suggestion:

item 1018 : New Cost: 1000 Gold +25% Critical Hit Chance

item 3031 : Same Cost: 3400 New Combine items: Pickaxe + Caulfield's Warhammer + Cloak of Agility + 425 Gold 50 AD 30% Critical Strike Chance Unique Passive + 10% Cooldown Reduction New Unique Passive: For every 1% Critical Strike Bonus, +2% Critical Strike Chance. Additionally every Critical Strike Chance over 100 is converted into Critical Strike Bonus(replaces old passive)

item 3371 : Same Cost: 4400 New Combine items: Infinity Edge + 1000 Gold 80 AD 30% Critical Strike Chance Unique Passive + 10% Cooldown Reduction New Unique Passive: For every 1% Critical Strike Bonus, +2% Critical Strike Chance. Additionally every Critical Strike Chance over 100 is converted into Critical Strike Bonus(replaces old passive)

item 3508: New Cost: 3500 New Combine Items: Cloak of Agility + B.F. Sword + Cloak of Agility + 200 gold +40 AD +50% Critical Strike Chance New Unique Passive: Gain increasingly more Cooldown Reduction from Critical Strike Bonus provided from other sources(maximum +30% additional Cooldown Reduction at 40% Critical Strike Bonus). Additionally every 1% Cooldown Reduction past the cap(40% base, 45% with Cosmic Insight) is transferred into 1% Critical Strike Chance(If it becomes overpowered, can potentially remove the ability for this specific Critical Strike Chance passive to work with item 3031's Critical Strike Chance passive. This additional passive is mainly just to allow it to function with more Crit Strike without 100% needing item 3031. Also replaces old passive ) . Unique Passive: Critical Strikes restore +3% of your Maximum Mana pool.

item 1051 : New Cost: 350 gold +10% Critical Strike Bonus

item 3086: +15% Attack Speed +20% Critical Strike Bonus Unique Passive: +5% Movement Speed

item 3087: +35% Attack Speed +20% Critical Strike Bonus +5% Movement Speed (same passive as live)

item 3094: +30% Attack Speed +20% Critical Strike Bonus +5% Movement Speed (same passive as live)

item 3085: +40% Attack Speed +20% Critical Strike Bonus +7% Movement Speed (same passive as live)

item 3046: +45% Attack Speed +20% Critical Strike Bonus +5% Movement Speed (same passive as live)

The overall goal of this "Crit Rework" idea is to make damage gains happen over time rather than all from one item just with chances of it happening, while giving ADCs more diversity in crit items by spreading item 3031's current passive into all of the crit chance items(replacing their crit chance with crit DAMAGE), while also making crit CHANCE more of a rare stat only showing up in one of two items. I also made item 3508 and item 3031 work better together by separating item 3508's cooldown reduction from it, and placing it on item 3031 , while also buffing item 3508 's cooldown reduction PASSIVE by 10% and making overcapping CDR a BENEFIT to the item(straight up buff to make it more attractive without making it overpowered, at least I hope it wouldn't become overpowered). I intentionally left the attack speed items the same price so that the overall build costs wouldn't be horrendously overpriced(since technically I could probably increase every one of them to be like 350 gold extra)

If this gets enough likes I'll make a post where people can add on to the ideas and if I like them I'll make necessary changes as well as other things. It's obviously a very basic concept that will likely need more work. However I think crit should be made more into standardized damage than it's current random iterations. The current system makes one item just make everything more powerful. I feel like instead it should just make that one thing happen more often with all the other items increasing that one thing's effectiveness so that it's a smoother transition rather than "I completed one item so when I DO get that random occurrence, it's .5x stronger. Now I just have to make that happen more often". I feel like it should happen more often AND GAIN IN DAMAGE at the same time. I think in order for this to occur though damage across the board might also need to be lessened since ADCs are the main damage source in every game. Something will need to be done to make sure ADCs CAN REACH the late game that would need to be created for this to happen. I honestly think ADCs as a class need to be worked on to be played more like Jhin and Ezreal, as those seem to be the most fair ADCs of the bunch, but otherwise I think this would be a nice change to make ADCs more fluid in build paths as well as less snowbally. One thing I find really nice about this is that you don't HAVE to go straight up attack speed + crit. You would also be able to build item 3031 + item 3508 for 40% CDR, mana restoration on auto attacks, more base damage on auto attacks, and even more critical damage without a single zeal item(by building more cooldown reduction items to increase crit chance over the cap, synergizing with the passive on IE to increase critical damage instead when overcapping your crit chance. There are a lot of possibilities.

Kyunsei1/5/2018, 12:42:36 PM3 votes

Shiv need to become a pushing tool again, but nowadays you'll have to nerf Drakthar too if you want to nerf Shiv.

Saitho Orihara1/5/2018, 7:47:59 PM2 votes

Crit in general is a problem, we all won or lost a trade because of a crit with only a glove or something like that. Crit building ADC are super popular and strong right now because of the RFC/Shiv combo, RFC charging faster, giving longer range and Shiv doing AOE burst damage, adding a IE on top and there you go, your hypercarry is already hitting late game. Also the constant baby sitting that they're getting is really annoying at time, we no longer have Ardent Censer to worry about so that's good but most ADC semi-decent to CSing will get his 3 item spike pretty quickly and it's a race to who will shut down the other ADC first that wins the game in 25 mins. Tank Supports are popular because they can shutdown the ADC before the 3 items spike and make the enemy ADC useless. I remember Bork Vayne, the Vayne that required skill to play before her full build, the Vayne that wasn't Q + Shiv one shotting everyone once she got that Shiv and nothing else.

At this point Riot should do a rework on Crit and I believe it already as been mention but I could be wrong. I see the problem being more in the stat itself then 1 item but yeah, Shiv is clearly the worst of them.

item 3087 item 3094 item 3031 on a hypercarry is pretty much their full build and it's ridiculous that hypercarries who are late game champions no longer needs 4 to 5 items to be scary, they only need 3, 2 of them being low price and that should not be build together, it should not be a thing, choose one or the other, not both.

Ifneth1/5/2018, 9:46:08 AM2 votes

I agree with this. Shiv is also not a ranged-exclusive item, making it affect non-marksman champs, too. Tryndamere, for example, uses it to burst squishies and clear waves.

62021319DEL11/6/2018, 1:54:30 PM1 votes

Personally I'd just lower the range on RFC by 50 and lower the damage Shiv does by like 40 and make the discharge do physical damage instead of magic damage, but that's just me.

Jinx Hunter1/6/2018, 4:30:33 PM1 votes

No, how about we nerf all crit tem cost and make them more expensive and make shiv and RFC not stack with each other. Failing that, just rework crit.

junglerboy161/6/2018, 7:35:52 PM1 votes

The problem with RFC is that it allows you to break shiv even harder by letting it proc on structures, proc shiv from greater range, and proc more frequently, meaning those two items alone are all you need to be effective in a broad variety of situations.

I agree that shiv is the bigger of the two issues since they buffed its damage, but RFC amplifies the brokenness of Shiv far more than you give it credit for.

leakinb1/5/2018, 10:07:20 AM1 votes

lv 18 deal 400 AOE magic dmg seems fair

BLACK REALM GOD1/5/2018, 6:07:51 PM1 votes

how about... making them ranged/melee exclusive and buffing the stats individually to make up for the idea of having both be used together

AirKingNeo1/6/2018, 12:28:51 AM1 votes

I would either remove the Crit from Shiv or cut 5-20 base damage (the level scaling obviously, not a number between).

SpecterVonBaren1/6/2018, 5:36:10 AM1 votes

item 3094 Should be the crit+attack speed item you want when you want to deal a burst of single target damage.

item 3087 Should be the crit+attack speed item you want when you want waveclear.

item 3085 Should be the crit+attack speed item you want when you want to deal more aoe damage to champions.

There should be specific reasons you buy one or the other and they should have adjustments made to them to define them in their respective purposes.

Ariel the Cruel1/6/2018, 6:15:24 AM1 votes

It's not shiv, it's crit. But there's nothing wrong with DPS classes having burst.

. . . Unless they're mages.

PokladnicaZla1/6/2018, 7:56:35 AM1 votes

Always thought that Shyv charge up in a fight by AA a target and used for AoE team damage.