The "People Got Better" Argument

Kaìju·Nov 23, 2017·42 votes·2,557 views

So when people talk about the short lane phase and games, one comment I see a lot is that people are just naturally improving. I have a response question to that argument. Did people just all improve globally at the same time? Or is it just that games snowball too hard? Because I don't see how everyone could have just improved to such a degree that the meta is getting faster, especially adding on that it would seem EVERYONE suddenly got good at the same time. And before you say not EVERYONE got good, it must be enough people to impact the meta which would make it the vast majority. So what changed? Why did "everyone suddenly get good" at the same time?

48 Comments

Warlord ScrapNov 23, 201721 votes

No riot made the game shorter over time. If you read every patch notes in order theyve slowly nerfed turrets. Buffed minions, buffed ap damage to towers from 25% to 50% of ap.

DisembarkNov 24, 20172 votes

It’s a combination. Games are shorter but people have also gotten better (not everyone, but if you play normals ur normals MMR is higher).

In Bronze lane phase still often lasts 15min.

Warlord ScrapNov 25, 20171 votes

Im not saying its not somewhat an increase in skill but id argue thats its mostly from riots end. Skill alone doesnt make the average game time go from 55 mins to 35 mins.

Colgate GatorNov 23, 20178 votes

The short answer is no. The proper answer, however, is much more complicated.

Obviously you're going to get better at the game the more you play, but not everyone learns at the same rate nor everyone plays the same amount of games, and even if they did, not everyone is willing to actually get good at the game (I have friends who have played for about 5 years by now and still have no fucking idea how to last hit properly).

It isn't a secret that the game is more snowbally right now, but it isn't really tied to people being better or worse than a year ago.

SteelMankindNov 24, 20171 votes

Eh. Nearly every champ thats released nowadays would be among the most difficult champs in the game if released back in s1 or s2. Think of the "old school" hard champs, like Orianna or Vayne. In 2017 theyre certainly not easy, but neither are they as complicated as 90% of the releases in the last two years.

CowseedNov 24, 20177 votes

If everyone was getting better lanes wouldn't go 0/7 at ten minutes :D

But don't mind me. I'm just speaking out my ass

SteelflameNov 24, 20177 votes

There has been a clear growth of skill in the game, there is no doubt about it. Just look at the old "Insec" of Season 2. A rare, difficult to pull off combo at the highest levels... is now common place in gold games or lower.

Honestly, I'll blame 3 things for the increases speed of the game.

Animation cancelling. The full support of Animation cancelling by Riot has had rather major impacts on how fast champions can put out their kit. It used to be that you'd take 2 seconds to do the full Renekton combo. Now? EW(T)QE is able to be done in nearly no time at all.
Gold changes and changes to ADC itemization. ADC itemization has steadily dropped in price over the seasons. It used to be they were the be all end all lategame, because they had some 16k-18k gold build. That has dropped, and ADCs are able to spike as early as that first or second item, at a mere 2600-5000 gold. Gold/xp also just flows faster, and the "late game" happens earlier.
Game pace changes in general. More powerful objectives that produce massive windows of power just happen to be great at closing out games, unlike prior objectives that were a long slow boost such as old drake's 250 gold per kill for the team, meanwhile now Elder pops up with all that nonsense for like 90 seconds of a very high threat high power push to try and end the game generally, or Rift Herald (Mini-baron) and Baron itself also serve as strong pushing/game pace accelerating tools.

Sraeg2013Nov 24, 20175 votes

I haven't seen a single decent Insec in 2 years at least.

The best they can do is abuse the garbage mechanic of R and Q->R->Flash.

PhantomPranksterNov 23, 20175 votes

i don't think anyone has gotten better.

things that changed about the game is

Gold and itemization is way more important for damage dealing characters now because you can't start off with an absurd amount of lethality or magic penetration from runes and masteries. So people who were SHIT tier at farming and building properly are getting shit on hard body now for years of bad habits.

All characters now rely heavily on their base stats since runes and masteries can't stat pat or compensate for what characters lack like they use to with old runes and masteries. Meaning people who didn't get comfortable with their character without runes or masteries are now getting shit on because they don't know what their character truly feels like.

New runes and masteries pretty much evened out most of the characters now so characters that are weak aren't getting slapped around as easily.

Professor WardNov 24, 20173 votes

People got way better, ESPECIALLY AT LOWER ELOS

People 100% got better, in silver games i used to be able to win on my farm ability alone, because at silver elo 4cs per 10 was the average

Now a random silver botlaner averages double that,

Based soley on cs numbers i can tell you that the overall playerbase is MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE WITH THE GAME than ever before

Teridax68Nov 25, 20173 votes

If everyone got good at the same time, that would imply that the game has experienced little to no new player influx for months on end, which would itself indicate a major problem. I also don't really think there's much data to support the "everyone got good" argument in the first place, especially since this hasn't really happened so quickly at any other time in the game's development, so that line really doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Considering how many of Riot's changes since Preseason 6 have explicitly been explained as attempts to speed up games (as with the Preseason 6 minion enrage mechanic, for example), it is far more likely that laning phases are short now simply because the game's evolving balance and design have pushed them to become that way.

Paladin 0f LifeNov 23, 20172 votes

I am for shorter games. Less time, more elo, mistakes make a huge difference. That is how it should be as long as there are ways to recover and get shutdowns.

HalcyonDwellerNov 24, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Paladin 0f Life,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EEN5WLbk,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-11-23T22:54:57.087+0000)

as long as there are ways to recover and get shutdowns.

Well, right now, that is not the case. Especially considering the nature of snowballing.

Sraeg2013Nov 24, 20173 votes

(...)as long as there are ways to recover and get shutdowns.

The only way to recover in 5v5 is for the enemy team to purposely (or not) throw the lead away.

Twitch ChatNov 24, 20172 votes

If you think the overall skill level of the game hasn't improved just look at someone like hashinshin who hasn't improved in any area in 6 years. compare them to someone who can actually play the game in season 8.

Yordle XayahNov 24, 20172 votes

I'm just gonna leave this here https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/n3f5kn7V-as-a-diamond-silver-elo-is-surprisingly-hard

Paper1Nov 24, 20172 votes

The only way you know if people really have got better is to show data that supports this hypothesis. It would be interesting to see if anyone did a study/survey on this. From my perspective, I don't think players have noticeably got better. Solo queue games are still full of players making fundamental errors and being toxic towards each other. Because of this, it is near impossible to climb, but many players refuse to acknowledge this.

DunkinNoobsNov 24, 20172 votes

I've been low diamond since mid season 5. I can confidently say that low diamond players have significantly increased in quality the past 3 years. I'm a far better player than I was 2 1/2 years ago when I reached D5 for the first time, but unfortunately so is everybody else.

CosnirakNov 25, 20172 votes

The average skill level has clearly gone up. The % of players who are aware of and use guides, watch pro games, watch high skill streamers, ect. has gone up and that's certainly part of it, though overall it's much more complex than that. However, games have gotten shorter for several reasons I'm not going to bother listing, average player skill merely being one of those.

NekoniClawsNov 24, 20171 votes

Wait, who's arguing that?

Is it only people who main certain champions that suddenly got better?

[sg-ezreal]

Ez mains 200 IQ confirmed.

Seriously you can crunch the numbers and see why games are shorter. Or just try living past level 2 in botlane. Either one!

DengedenNov 24, 20171 votes

It's hardly sudden is it? There's still multiple games that last forever. Remember that guy who complained about the game ending at 10 minutes? Yeah the rest of his games were at least 25 minutes long.

Sraeg2013Nov 24, 20172 votes

Because game do "end" at the 10 minute mark.

Nobody said that a Nexus blows up at 10 minute mark, it's just that it takes the other team 10+ minutes to get that far after getting a lead in the first 10 that cannot be outplayed only thrown.

The only ranked mode where that can happen is Twisted Treeline, because a single player has a much higher impact there.

DengedenNov 25, 20171 votes

Crappy argument, basically every move where a team gained an advantage can technically be considered a throw.

Sraeg2013Nov 25, 20171 votes

The winning team going 1v5 times 5 isn't the losing team playing good, it's the other team being idiots.

The winning team going Baron without wards and at half HP isn't the losing team playing good, it's the other team being idiots.

DengedenNov 26, 20171 votes

Aite, if that's how you wanna pull it, I'll get back to you when I find a high elo game where a comeback happens but none of the things you mentioned happen.

Sraeg2013Nov 26, 20171 votes

Yeah, because no mistakes happen in "high elo" games.

DengedenNov 27, 20171 votes

Not on the level that you're setting it up to be, nope.

Sraeg2013Nov 27, 20171 votes

It never happened.

Nope, never.

Too bad I've watched too many Diamond/Master/Challenger streams back in the day to believe it being true.

DengedenNov 28, 20171 votes

It's the exception, not the rule and if you're really dumb enough to think it's the only way for it to happen, then, lol.

Sraeg2013Nov 28, 20171 votes

It's not an exception.

There was time where my favourite pastime activity was watching high ELO streams, Wingsofdeath in particular.

Even Diamond 1+ is getting AFKs, trolls and people who unintentionally play poorly.

They aren't gods that make no mistakes.

DengedenNov 30, 20171 votes

When did I say that? I said they often play longer games even without making gigantic throws

Sraeg2013Dec 6, 20171 votes

You know, I don't even need to check to know what you said is a complete bullshit, but for your sake:

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations

DengedenDec 7, 20171 votes

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/infographics/patch-7-24-infographics

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/infographics/patch-5-22-infographics

[vlad-salute]

Sraeg2013Dec 7, 20171 votes

According to that "infographic" the average game length for this patch would be somewhere between 30 and 35 minutes.

Meanwhile the average game length the website lists is about 28 minutes.

[sg-lulu]

DengedenDec 8, 20171 votes

Hmm, now should we take the stats that take an unknown formula or the one with more data.

azrolatorNov 25, 20172 votes

People would play ARAM because those games were over in about 20 minutes usually. 25 minutes for an SR is short.

EDIT: Just played an SR game where we won every lane back to their base in 20 minutes , inhib down, and they surrendered at 21. Game time is shorter because RIOT wanted offense to outscale defense even more than before, and changed things accordingly. Damage is more, more damage is more kills, more kills is more items, more items is more damage, more damage is more kills, and on and on.

DengedenNov 25, 20171 votes

Rofl, point me to a game in the past where winning every lane wouldn't have had that outcome.

azrolatorNov 27, 20171 votes

Rofl, point me to a game in the past that allowed an outcome of winning all 3 lanes to base in 20 minutes. Damage is boosted, that is what allows the quick games. Taking all the objectives wins the game, it doesn't deny that damage has increased.

DengedenNov 28, 20171 votes

Firstly, as you said, they surrendered.

Secondly, according to your genius logic, games back then only ended by 20 minutes if a team surrendered. You're seriously implying that teams used to ff before their inhibs went down. Are you kidding me?

azrolatorNov 30, 20171 votes

You're seriously implying that teams don't ff before their inhibs went down? Are you trolling me? Never mind, you don't need to answer that. Rhetorical.

DengedenNov 30, 20171 votes

You only ff with inhibs down when someone is trolling. I mean really, you've got to be kidding me.

ThefrostyvikingNov 24, 20171 votes

Well.....you´ll kinda naturally improve as you keep doing something right?

And nowadays there are dedicated youtube channels and web pages to tell you what's good and how to play it.

It's probably a mix between a larger amount of available and detailed information as well as the average skill rising over time.

I mean, you just have to play and know about others champs and items to get better........the more precise info you have the more accurate will your predictions and reactions be.

Then there is of course API and reaction time, but i doubt they get improved just like that or that so many focus on them so i do think it's just a matter of the average level of game knowledge going up.

DeadUnbornNov 24, 20171 votes

the game only decreases by half a minute on average game lenght.

Games got shorter because now everyone is playing damage champs and damage champs snowball. It is entirely a meta thing and people not taking optimal runes

AleksaTeemoNov 24, 20171 votes

This games are shorter than SSW`s wins at worlds...

UnknownTerritoryNov 26, 20171 votes

Late game doesn't exist anymore - Late game now starts from the beginning of the game*[sg-lulu]*

Rins Thigh SocksNov 27, 20171 votes

Back in Season 3, Bronze was hot garbage.

Hell, in season 4 I made it to Diamond csing at a rate of 3-5 cs a minute. I still maintained a ~53% winrate. Now, aside from Bronze 5 which is basically a division all its own, the rest of Bronze gets like 4-7 cs a minute. That is, to me, a much wider improvement than I ever expected.

So yes, I do believe everyone got much better. Constant, consistent access to knowledge via Youtube videos, guides, streams, etc. Just bridged a huge knowledge gap that has made players much better at getting a gold advantage than ever before. You remember how high diamond players would say, "If you wanna get out of Bronze just learn to cs well and ride that advantage to a win?" That's what everyone started doing and so everyone gets their items faster and when players can't play against that (Silver and Gold players, from my experience, still don't have finer laning mechanics so they die more frequently), it just leads to more snowballing. The game doesn't end as quickly because the players can't push their lead as well but things do tend to blow up more quickly than they did 2-3 seasons ago.

BerylCrabNov 28, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So when people talk about the short lane phase and games, one comment I see a lot is that people are just naturally improving. I have a response question to that argument. Did people just all improve globally at the same time? Or is it just that games snowball too hard? Because I don't see how everyone could have just improved to such a degree that the meta is getting faster, especially adding on that it would seem EVERYONE suddenly got good at the same time. And before you say not EVERYONE got good, it must be enough people to impact the meta which would make it the vast majority. So what changed? Why did "everyone suddenly get good" at the same time?

This reminds me of when people on private vanilla WoW servers try to say that they are "just better than the people who played it way back when." "People understand the game much better now and don't play weird specs." But in reality it's just because they are fighting 1.0 mobs with 1.6 items and 1.6 talents, or in layman's terms, they are fighting monsters with stats how they were on release, while using items and talents from 4 years later.