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"Marksmen are all the same" is only true if you keep making them damage carries and not utility carr

Kaìju·1/4/2018, 6:16:05 AM·45 votes·2,255 views

Nobody ever claims that Ashe and Sivir are the same because they do different things. One has vision and CC while the other has wave clear and a move speed steroid. If you want to make more unique marksmen and have a diverse bot lane that isn't just "who does the most damage today" then marksmen need to be given more utility and less damage. They should do different things that allow your team to win, with the added bonus of doing ranged DPS. Kog'Maw has his Q. Rather than making him just W to instant win if he has a team or auto lose if he doesn't he should fill the resistance shred niche more. Or Ezreal who admittedly does break something every season being a marksmen with a long range "auto" that is his Q. These abilities and themes should be embraced so that games are less about the strongest ADC and more about the right ADC.

Even Jhin was very popular last season when marksmen were bad because he's a utility carry with three CC spells and some damage, and people nut every time he says "HOW LOVELY!"

So making fun, useful, and healthy utility carries is absolutely possible, and it should be the norm. Xayah and Cait are two zone control marksmen, once with more range and long lasting control and one with short range and more escape for shorter control.

Making the next carry be "I built two and a half items I kill your team now thank you friends" is a bad idea. Utility carries also usually have a more stable winrate because they are useful even from behind, but more because they enable someone fed to win, not because they are over tuned.

Also utility carries like Ashe can still dominate with damage if you just reach late game so it's not like not designing them as hyper carries gimps their damage.

TLDR Make more utility carries and less hyper carries.

34 Comments

SSShutTheDuckUp1/4/2018, 11:55:56 AM26 votes

{quoted}

last season when marksmen were bad

https://robinsurbanlifestories.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/what-community1.gif

If you mean the beginning of the season - it was not marksmen being bad, it was lethality being OP, so everyone was one-shotting marksmen. Irony is that Jhin was building lethality as well

Edit: Aside from that I agree with your post. From a support player perspective I also prefer laning alongside (and even against) early/mid game and utility focused marksmen, rather that just stick my finger in my nose, shield/heal the hypercarry and wait for late-game

Teridax681/4/2018, 2:16:39 PM17 votes

I have two main thoughts on this: firstly, I completely agree that more utility carries could add a ton of diversity to the game, particularly as it would be a surefire way of designing marksmen that don't tread on each others' toes. Secondly, though, I don't think marksmen need to be made into utility carries just to differentiate them, as I don't think it's necessary or appropriate.

I think the main issue with the similarity of marksmen isn't just that many of them do the same thing, but that they often do it in the same way. As a class, they deal damage primarily through their autoattacks, and while that in itself is more or less fine, their itemization puts so much raw power into the same things, namely attack damage, crit and on-hit effects, that they end up becoming right-click machines in spite of their unique kits. This, in a way, mirrors the issues we've seen with supports, in that their itemization capitalizes so little on each champion's unique strengths that the class ends up becoming homogeneous as a result, to the significant loss of its champions' identities, and diversity overall.

However, whereas the problem with supports is that they all ended up using the same actives, marksmen all end up having the same amount of very passive power, namely autoattack-based power. This also leads to the perception that marksmen don't require as much skill as other classes, as well as a general lack of counterplay, because the vast majority of any marksman's power ends up being ultra-reliable, and therefore not very interactive. Because of this, I think it would help to make more updates to marksman itemization to offer less generic and passive, unconditional power, if only to differentiate between marksman types better (we currently still don't have marksman subclasses).

What I think could also help, on top of that, could be to differentiate the autoattacks of marksmen more. We've seen this in a select few cases, particularly with the addition of ammo, unique attack modifiers, conditional empowerments, and so on, but there's still a ton of potential for expansion. Even with a champion as unique as Sivir, a popular suggestion a while back was to make her Q her basic attack, obviously with reduced damage, so that there would be a more consistently diverse pattern of her and her target maneuvering around each other. Older champions like Tristana and Twitch could certainly stand to have more unique attacks, as they otherwise have few things that differentiate them from other marksmen.

Abilities are also good terrain to explore in order to differentiate marksmen: right now, the issue is that many of their abilities fall under the umbrella of basic nukes, free-targeted mobility, reliable self-peel and on-demand raw stat steroids. Tristana is the worst example of this, as aside from her E her kit is a bunch of stats, a dash and a targeted knockback. Twitch has stealth, but otherwise is largely the same, particularly since the more unique aspects of his kit (namely his DoT) aren't emphasized nearly as much as his steroids. Even a marksman like Vayne, whose kit stands out for a bunch of different reasons, has many of these same problems. It would therefore likely help to reevaluate the way marksman spells work: for sure, the focus should be on their basic attacks, but then abilities are the perfect opportunity to introduce modifiers and conditional power that would not only add more interaction, but also shape the way each marksman plays to a much finer degree.

Athenes Lulu1/4/2018, 10:58:55 AM9 votes

Utility? Cuts us supports a LOT of slack, too.

Maybe that's why I actually enjoyed laning with Ashe, Sivir, and Jhin even as a Lulu main.

Not sure if a bit offtopic, but most "ADC equivalents" in MMOs are always packed with utility because dealing sustained damage from range can only vary so much. I know, two different genres, but Riot could use a little more note-taking from that, despite most of such classes being extremely utility-based and supportive.

Apparently Noob1/4/2018, 10:41:09 AM7 votes

I feel like hyper carries need to have VERY clear windows of power. Draven is insanely powerful, but only when he can keep spinning his axes. Kog'maw is only powerful when he can keep pelting out shots undisturbed during W active. Both no real movement either. Very predictable, but incredibly strong.

But then you get shit like Vayne and Twitch who can enter the fight unseen and instantly turn on their strongest windows of power before anyone has a chance to react, and their power moves coincide with their windows of safety (empowered out of stealth)

Dasdi961/4/2018, 12:09:36 PM6 votes

Unfortunately riot thinks ideal adc gameplay is destroy entire teams in single digit time while being mass protected by your team. This leaves no room for "non carry marksmen" since aside from Jhin , most utility adcs are old design Ashe Sivir .

Ipressbutton1/4/2018, 4:52:02 PM6 votes

Remove ADC from the game

TeCoolMage1/4/2018, 5:31:59 PM4 votes

:'( I once said carries shouldn't be defined by their damage and no one cared

DPS/burst was needed to win the game they said

Sujiren1/4/2018, 8:04:00 AM4 votes

While Draven is my favourite ,adc character wise and design wise, I always felt like he is too risky of a pick, because if my support is a potato, then I would rather play Ashe , Jhin , Sivir Caitlyn or Xayah since they all bring some kind of utility to the table, rather than just damage.

Terozu1/4/2018, 4:27:08 PM2 votes

The utility tging is why mages/supports work so good when buildind ad, they can do shit other than auto. Annie can thornmail, Soraka can silence and sustain, Zoe has a range boost cc and w, Janna get bonus damage from most Crit items, Leblanc has mobility and snares (Crit Leblanc with Morg supp is terrific).

Chromatic Eagle1/4/2018, 3:03:15 PM2 votes

Ayyy Sivir mention.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1/4/2018, 5:52:23 PM2 votes

"Marksmen are all the same" is only true if you keep making them damage carries and not utility carr

no offense but its BS.

Marksmen are all the same Oo How Ashe, Jhin, Varus, Draven, Xayah, cait... are even close of each other ????
Most marksmen already have some utility (and its enough most of time).

Even Jhin was very popular last season when marksmen were bad

When was this time ???

adc role is always good ( not all adc, but the role is).
yeah crit need to be tuned down & reworked.

Rebonack1/5/2018, 9:08:20 PM1 votes

I've been saying for a LONG time now that if Koggers ever gets a remake again, they should focus his kit much more heavily on his resistance shredding. It fits thematically, gives him a unique niche to fill, and fits nicely with the idea that he's supposed to be the damage glue that holds an otherwise high utility/CC team together.

woodvsmurph1/4/2018, 6:23:38 PM1 votes

Unique-ish adc's: sivir - although her spellshield should be made more like fiora riposte, so she can block all abilities for a limited duration rather than just one; either that or chance fiora riposte to be like sivir spellshield

ashe - because of hawkshot and ult, although similar tools to both can be found in other's kits

kalista - because almost her entire damage is in her auto's and rend, her ult allowing new escape/engage tools for teammates, and her mobility with each aa

tristana - the demolish portion is unique, perhaps she could be built on a bit

draven - not that we don't have other high damage, close range adc's, but draven takes a bit more skill due to needing to catch axes, also he's snowbally thanks to adoration passive

jhin - due to his reload mechanic

twitch, cait, jinx are largely the same - being almost entirely aa-reliant after laning phase with stealth and aoe being the only differences, they all rely on long range safety as they sit there trying to mow down the enemy team from safety; cait and jinx are almost the same exact champion

vayne - used to take skill; her stealth duration for each tumble is far too generous now and adc's have gotten too much bonus damage vs anyone with higher hp than them; add in the much cheaper items and it becomes too much for other roles/champs; sure, she's semi-unique as a tank killer who doesn't need high ad, but still point-n-click aa with less skill required than sivir (who has no safety beyond spellshield and speed) to protect her when going in

HalcyonDweller1/4/2018, 6:48:38 PM1 votes

I'm in favor of this!

LordGeovanni1/4/2018, 11:39:34 PM1 votes

but if you make marksmen utility carries you would either have to make them do less damage or stop nerfing supports and tanks for doing damage when they have utility.

SonicBoom5001/5/2018, 3:53:10 AM1 votes

{quoted}

Nobody ever claims that Ashe and Sivir are the same because they do different things. One has vision and CC while the other has wave clear and a move speed steroid. If you want to make more unique marksmen and have a diverse bot lane that isn't just "who does the most damage today" then marksmen need to be given more utility and less damage. They should do different things that allow your team to win, with the added bonus of doing ranged DPS. Kog'Maw has his Q. Rather than making him just W to instant win if he has a team or auto lose if he doesn't he should fill the resistance shred niche more. Or Ezreal who admittedly does break something every season being a marksmen with a long range "auto" that is his Q. These abilities and themes should be embraced so that games are less about the strongest ADC and more about the right ADC.

Even Jhin was very popular last season when marksmen were bad because he's a utility carry with three CC spells and some damage, and people nut every time he says "HOW LOVELY!"

So making fun, useful, and healthy utility carries is absolutely possible, and it should be the norm. Xayah and Cait are two zone control marksmen, once with more range and long lasting control and one with short range and more escape for shorter control.

Making the next carry be "I built two and a half items I kill your team now thank you friends" is a bad idea. Utility carries also usually have a more stable winrate because they are useful even from behind, but more because they enable someone fed to win, not because they are over tuned.

Also utility carries like Ashe can still dominate with damage if you just reach late game so it's not like not designing them as hyper carries gimps their damage.

TLDR Make more utility carries and less hyper carries.

I kinda made an idea for a kind of support/marksman champion, some things are wip, but I think it's ready for more comments

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/skin-champion-concepts/RYzP0GBE-ren-the-cyber-gunner

Plastic 5 ADC1/4/2018, 12:26:04 PM1 votes

Marksmen are finally in a good spot now.

Deny it all you want but almost all the seasons before this one, marksmen have been trash and not much marksmen champs were viable.