Is there something actually more OP than %Max HP True Damage?

ValyrianBlade··3 votes·1,794 views

Yes - shields.

Seriously, shields are the only counter to %Max HP True damage... and there's really no counter to shields (I mean, you can attack someone else or just fight through them, but neither of those are a good option if you really need to kill that target before it busts up your carry / yourself...). Frankly, I'm somewhat okay with shields being so busted right now because at least not being able to kill someone is better than dying to someone no matter how tanky you are... but really ideally neither of these would be OP.

I think in order to nerf shields, we need to first nerf percent max hp true damage. That really needs to be conditional. Something so powerful should not be an inherently free part of a champions kit - it should be tough to land. Not a 3-auto-attack that really is 1 and two abilities (Vayne AA-Q-AA-E). Vayne's not even really OP in my opinion - just some extreme usage cases feel really bad.

Let's get in to shields though. Seriously - there are way too many, they stack way too hard, and they counter literally EVERYTHING. The huge majority of damage in this game is telegraphed and delayed. There are very few abilities that deal damage instantly where an ally can't react with a shield before the damage hits.

I mean, isn't anyone else sick of Poppy tower-diving you pre-6 just to poke because her passive shield blocks the TWO turret shots plus any retaliation damage you deal entirely? Even when she misses the stun on her charge because CotC procs on the displacement alone? Like seriously?

Or item 3401 item 3190 + any of Orianna Karma LeeSin Shen Ivern Janna Lulu Lux Sona Taric Thresh followed up with item 3107 item 3222 item 3174 item 3072 making that ADC you just 100 - 2'd suddenly unkillable then at 80% health again?

Like, it's nice that there's counterplay to % max HP true damage. Getting a massive shield on you is a great way to stymie that Vayne. We seriously need to reconsider how this works though.

Is the answer to simply give shields the slow treatment of S5? I honestly think this would be fair - at least put some skill in to it. Just like how slows were no longer allowed to stack - why should shields have EVER stacked? It would be more optimal for the shielder's to reapply each shield right before the previous one wore off ( / was killed off) as it would increase overall duration - yet with the huge duration on all the shields in this game they just all get unloaded at the same time.

We need 2 nerfs to shields: First, they need a shorter duration. Shields should be reactive to incoming damage. Not a catch-all to a fight where if a shield is on a key target you can't just wait it out because that target will kill you before it comes off. It should be an option if your opponent shields too early to hold your abilities for a bit then crush them for the mistake.

Second, they need to either not stack or be less effective at stacking. Either 50% effectiveness for additional shields after the first (similar to summoner 7's debuff) or only the strongest shield applied has any effect (like slows). So if you get a 400hp shield and it has 375 of it eaten then a 200hp shield is applied on you, you have a 200hp shield, not 225. If the 400 and 200 are applied at the same time, you get 400, not 600.

Don't do this until you fix percent max hp true damage though. Shields are the only thing holding that in line...

17 Comments

Lady Yuki1 votes

You know, throughout Season 5 Janna was my preferred luxury ban - whenever Zac and Vi were both banned, i'd use my ban on her.

Now Karma is VEEEEEEERY close to taking her place. Only reason she hasnt is because she's very rarely picked.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lady Yuki,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qGFNe1Xn,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-09T01:12:51.320+0000)

You know, throughout Season 5 Janna was my preferred luxury ban - whenever Zac and Vi were both banned, i'd use my ban on her.

Now Karma is VEEEEEEERY close to taking her place. Only reason she hasnt is because she's very rarely picked.

Yea, sometimes it sucks how the strong stuff isn't popular so you don't like to ban it because it feels like a waste.

I've gone through weeks of banning something OP and feeling like it was a waste until a pro finally plays it and people finally stop questioning my ban.

Gator Raid1 votes

Attack speed slows are your friend against a Vayne.

If you're a tank, get item 3143 , get item 3110 . They will screw over a Vayne big time.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gator Raid,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qGFNe1Xn,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-01-09T01:21:45.726+0000)

Attack speed slows are your friend against a Vayne.

If you're a tank, get item 3143 , get item 3110 . They will screw over a Vayne big time.

Honestly, I like to just kill her 1v1 all mid game with Quinn . Land the blind and she's a sitting duck.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

{quoted}

Is there something actually more OP than %Max HP True Damage?

Yes, the irrational excuses people make to fear %max hp true damage like its this unavoidable and "un-voidable" thing

There is a defense against this and suggesting it simply kills you and makes all defense useless is a counterproductive lie.

The sheer amount of bullshit people spew in response to this damage type has drowned out the more logical approached to the point its completely buried the math that actually sums up what this actually does. I literally have to spend 30 minutes just to find the math to show what %hp damage actually does when it was posted in a fucking article. THAT IS FUCKING OP AS SHIT!

Big Lincoln1 votes

you wrote a lot but you haven't actually said what the counter or defense is

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

Because that's not what my post was about. There's so much bullshit out there that its hard to build the counterargument. We literally can't discuss this without me doing serious work.

Granted, that is a sign that %true damage is relatively complicated which violates riot's own clarity principle which I can easily prove but again that's not actually what my post is about and you haven't really asked for it thus far.

To be more direct, if you are going to ask me to explain to you the defense against %hp true damage then I am going to ask you if you know how to do some plot pointing or like doing a lot of math.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, the irrational excuses people make to fear %max hp true damage like its this unavoidable and "un-voidable" thing

There is a defense against this and suggesting it simply kills you and makes all defense useless is a counterproductive lie.

The sheer amount of bullshit people spew in response to this damage type has drowned out the more logical approached to the point its completely buried the math that actually sums up what this actually does. I literally have to spend 30 minutes just to find the math to show what %hp damage actually does when it was posted in a fucking article. THAT IS FUCKING OP AS SHIT!

I'm not sure I entirely follow this - sorry... I mostly meant to use the true damage circle jerk as clickbait for shields (which appears to have failed). I agree it is overrated a bit - shields being the counter I'm evidently suggesting. There are minor other ones, but it is still quite strong.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

shields should be strong

What needs a nerf is healing, not because healing is strong, it needs to be nerfed to make way for shields as a far superior alternative regardless of healing balanace. Healing is inherently toxic. It counteracts meaningful choice in a lot of cases. Shields can do the same but are much less bullshit in most cases as long as healing isn't being combined with it.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

shields should be strong

What needs a nerf is healing, not because healing is strong, it needs to be nerfed to make way for shields as a far superior alternative regardless of healing balanace. Healing is inherently toxic. It counteracts meaningful choice in a lot of cases. Shields can do the same but are much less bullshit in most cases as long as healing isn't being combined with it.

I can counter healing with grievous wounds. Literally everyone has access to it: summoner 14 item 3165 item 3123

I can't do anything to reduce the effectiveness of shields.

Healing isn't BS at all. Even the biggest drain tank is easily killable with grievous wounds. Shields however can be insanely OP.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

{quoted}

I can counter healing with grievous wounds. Literally everyone has access to it: summoner 14 item 3165 item 3123

I can't do anything to reduce the effectiveness of shields.

Healing isn't BS at all. Even the biggest drain tank is easily killable with grievous wounds. Shields however can be insanely OP.

Forcing people to buy specific items that aren't universally useful and viable to counter healing is not healthy design. Warping the meta to the point that people absolutely must get these things is again unhealthy design.

Not everyone has access to ignite once the game starts. Am I forced to take one of the other two items if someone decides to sustain? Because they are often unappealing choices especially item 3123

Forcing people to build into counters is also bad design, counterbuilding is not counterplay. Counterbuilding should be an option. That there are so few paths to take against healing and all of them are kindof conditional and involve some risk, a lot more than needed to heal, suggests that perhaps healing must not be too strong in this game or its just strong as shit and nothing will be done about it. But the point is that either way its probably just a bad design.

Damage can go around a shield. You don't need an extra stat to prevent a shield You don't have to go out of your way to get a specific debuff to stop a shield though you could. Healing can be just as insanely op as shields can but shields are more versatile after the thing in question has already occurred

For a game this fast paced, and designed to be fast paced, a shield is more appropriate than a game suffocating heal. Which is why this game was slowing to a crawl when healing was out of control but is snowballing out of control instead when shields are which is more appropriate for a faster paced brand.

And yes, you can do something to reduce the effectiveness of shields, armor and MR penetration both do this. You could say the same for heals but heals don't tend to be small temporary things, they are instead things that grow into massive undoings of any otherwise meaningful acts and decisions made by opponents

ValyrianBlade1 votes

{quoted}

Forcing people to buy specific items that aren't universally useful and viable to counter healing is not healthy design. Warping the meta to the point that people absolutely must get these things is again unhealthy design.

Not everyone has access to ignite once the game starts. Am I forced to take one of the other two items if someone decides to sustain? Because they are often unappealing choices especially item 3123

Forcing people to build into counters is also bad design, counterbuilding is not counterplay. Counterbuilding should be an option. That there are so few paths to take against healing and all of them are kindof conditional and involve some risk, a lot more than needed to heal, suggests that perhaps healing must not be too strong in this game or its just strong as shit and nothing will be done about it. But the point is that either way its probably just a bad design.

Damage can go around a shield. You don't need an extra stat to prevent a shield You don't have to go out of your way to get a specific debuff to stop a shield though you could. Healing can be just as insanely op as shields can but shields are more versatile after the thing in question has already occurred

For a game this fast paced, and designed to be fast paced, a shield is more appropriate than a game suffocating heal. Which is why this game was slowing to a crawl when healing was out of control but is snowballing out of control instead when shields are which is more appropriate for a faster paced brand.

And yes, you can do something to reduce the effectiveness of shields, armor and MR penetration both do this. You could say the same for heals but heals don't tend to be small temporary things, they are instead things that grow into massive undoings of any otherwise meaningful acts and decisions made by opponents

I mean, I agree with your point that the ADC healing up after nearly being assassinated is problematic. My experience though is that it's shields which allow it. The lifesteal itself isn't OP - I can finish off that ADC who the assassin chunked hard faster than they can lifesteal. UNLESS they have that 500hp shield on them. Then they can replenish their health while I either wait out the shield or use my burst trying to break through it (then my abilities are on CD and they can lifesteal faster than I can finish them off).

As for counterbuilding: I agree to an extent. I long argued that item 3157 was not viable "counterplay" to AD mid laners. That said, item 3123 is a much more direct counter to healing. Further, summoner 14 can be chosen AFTER you've seen your enemy champion selections. If they have a Vlad/Swain/Mundo/Soraka and no one on your team takes ignite, that's a mistake on your team's part (unless said player is explicitly planning to go item 3165 oritem 3123, may even be a mistake with the former because of the difficulty of getting them under the threshold).

Anyways though, as long as the healing isn't out of line, it's manageable. It's frustrating, but manageable. And often, even a strong Swain is kneecapped by an ADC that's smart enough to build item 3123 mid game. The fact that healing isn't oppressive early game (sustain is annoying but not oppressive) and there are both AD and AP options that are attractive on any offensive champions is a good start. Much better than item 3157 which isn't useful on a good number of mages, especially early and especially compared to item 3155.

Although I do respect your points and really do come partway to agreeing with them. Simply, healing has never bothered me. If a champion with healing starts getting big there are counters available for it. The same can't be said of other types of champions. If a Yi starts getting big I can't magically change from Quinn to Maokai top lane, or from Brand to Leona support, nor can I buy an item to give my team more hard CC. You don't lose to healing in champion select like you may lose to lack of cc. I don't think you lose to shielding in champion select either necessarily - but you can be set for a hard game if the enemy team has sufficient shields. I've not seen many teamfights where one team brings drastically more shields than the other and still loses.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

Vayne chunked by assassin

after a while she gains 500 shield / hp

She can go in again

You could potentially ignore 500 shield and zone her out or you can just shred it without worrying about her getting even more back before you can do anything. There is clarity in how tanky/squishy she will be at any given moment

You cannot ignore hp. Hp regen can't really have a cap aside from 100% max hp placed unless you want to get technical and tacky as hell. She will very soon be completely healed, what the assassin did no longer matters. gg meaningful decisions! Enjoy getting shredded as soon as she heals in a few seconds!

l Helios l1 votes

Fountain laser. Why am I not allowed to just run onto the fountain and kill their entire team?

#Nerf Fountain Laser 2017

Möral Support1 votes

[{quoted}](name=l Helios l,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qGFNe1Xn,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-01-09T01:36:27.048+0000)

Fountain laser. Why am I not allowed to just run onto the fountain and kill their entire team?

#Nerf Fountain Laser 2017

You can! Simply pick one champion: Ryze

l Helios l1 votes

But what if I want to survive the dive? Why should the laser kill me almost instantly? It's just not fair.

ProtestantCaesar1 votes

Ryze can bring super minions into the fountain with his ultimate. The super minions can tank the laser for a long time.

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