Questio for Riot's Balancing Team

DarkinPrime··21 votes·1,091 views

What is your definition of success? What metric is used to determine what changes are made? To what goal are they aimed towards.

If you can not define it with numbers, then you guys are aimless and that is why the game is always unbalanced. What would a balanced game look like in terms of the spread of win rates, pick rates, ban rates etc.

I've asked this many times. I don't think you guys have an answer. I think its just...uh well we feel such and such is too strong, so we are doing this and that.

Not good enough. You are a multi billion dollar company. Explain to your customers how you make decisions that impact them when they use your product.

28 Comments

Aseraan13 votes

My best bet is the sold skins.

DarkinPrime1 votes

Exactly.

underscores2225 votes

I don't think there is the ability to reasonably expect a numerical definition of success - change is iterative and heavily dependent on current conditions.

If, for example, any specific change(s) to a champ in a patch is designed to make them a bit weaker in the early game, what exactly is the definition of that? Obviously it can be achieved by trimming a little bit of damage or tankiness or increasing cooldowns some, but to say "we want galio to be 10% more likely to die 3 times by 20 mins in mid" seems a bit too specific and potentially impossible to measure due to the huge combination of other factors (player skill, opponent, jungler pressure, etc)

Even if you want them to say "we want all champs to be as close to a 50% win rate as possible" there's still huge issues. 50% win rate how? Average across skill levels? 50% at each tier of play? Champs like Garen and Ryze aren't going to be easy to get to that spot, and it's been basically accepted that some champs aren't as good at low/high tiers due to teamwork, experience, mechanics, etc. You can't reasonably expect them to be fairly close to even winrate across the board.

And are you asking for goals on a per patch basis? They do try to indicate the thoughts behind most of the changes the put in patches (Zoe is too strong, so we're moving power from here to there) even if they aren't strictly numerical in nature. Would you rather see "Zoe has a 56% win rate and is able to deal 1.2k damage with one spell rotation consistently from levels 4-8, so we're gonna nerf her." What happens when I play Zoe, fail miserably, and the point back at the patch notes and question why I wasn't able to do 1.2k damage with a rotation like they said? Would I then feel like they were lying about how strong Zoe is because I can't attain the same stats? (No, I wouldn't, because as I said, I fail miserably at Zoe. Other people, however, aren't so self-aware)

What does balance even really mean, anyway? If it means that if going against champion A, you could pick either champion B or C and have an equally good chance of winning, what does that mean for the game? Why would you pick one champ over the other? Presumably, there's more going on than just a 1v1 (champ B works best with this team comp, champ C is a split-pusher, etc) but then would each champ be equally good against champ A in the lane? If you pick champ D, who you know will struggle against A but has a better late game, does that make it balanced if the game ends after 20 minutes because your entire team of late game champions got stomped?

PickIe Rickkk4 votes

We want games to last 30 minutes we want first tower to go down around 12 minutes we want around 2 dragons taken on average per game in an average game we want people to take baron atleast once per game we want mid laners to have 10k gold by 22 minutes on average we want gold differential range between teams to be within 2-3k gap on average at 20 minutes

that would be a start. You can't balance champions around a game that has no structure. Not having the amount of time in the early game differ from patch to patch because that fucks with every single champion in the game.

underscores2221 votes

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here, because while I do agree with most of your points (I like the slightly longer games that are more even as well) I feel like you do not necessarily speak for the majority of the playerbase, and that you probably have not considered the complexities of your statements in context of the overall game. I don't have answers, I'm just asking these questions to get thought going on what actually is involved (at least, to my mind) in some of these changes.

So first off, do "we" want longer games? You might be the average voice of NA, but what does Korea have to say about the matter? What tier of play are we talking about? Why 30 minutes and not 33? Is there really a "best" average game length for maximum enjoyment? I think it's fairly clear that there's a lot of personal opinion regarding this question.

I recall reading somewhere recently that the average game length was something like 27 or 28 minutes. Is that close enough to 30? How systematic do you need to be to bump the game time up, and will that make an actual difference?

Towers going down, average dragons, baron - those are purely balance issues with that particular mechanic, so adjusting then should be easy if it were decided that doing so was necessary. Personally, I think dragons are currently fine and turrets too weak.

Mid laner gold at X time. This is a crazy one. Anivia and Talon get their gold in almost entirely different ways, yet both are mid laners. How do you determine if kill gold needs to be higher (more snowballing - helpful to roaming mids) or minion gold needs to be higher (helpful to farming mids) to reach this goal? What will adjusting either do to the other lanes and jungle? Do mages need better farming/last hitting options (more CS compared to now) to reach that gold goal? What will this do to items that are bought/mid lane power spikes?

I'm going to assume here that average mid lane CS is roughly equal to average top/bot CS at the end of lane phase - if mid lane is getting the same farm, but feels like they're down on gold compared to side lanes, what does that mean? Fewer kills/assists? Less chance of pushing towers down? Where is the difference coming from? You can't hope to solve a "problem" if you don't know whats causing it. Are mage items just too expensive? If you make mage items cheaper, what will that do to bot lane with the mage supports like Brand, etc?

And how do you balance gold difference between teams in a reasonable manner? If one team has great objective control and the other team doesn't, shouldn't that reflect in team gold? I get that you want to be able to leverage a winning fight into a comeback, but how do you ensure the gap isn't too large on average? More gold for shutdowns? Less gold from baron/dragon/turrets? Playing with these mechanics seems risky to me (though I am a fan of putting all towers back to 150 global gold). How do you reward players for doing the "right" thing in game - or offer strategic options that are "equally good" - without providing them too much benefit? If the dragon is always worth 150 gold (in pure gold, or effects) and towers are worth 175 gold, shouldn't taking a tower ALWAYS be the better option?

But even then, say we get the game to be as you would like - a bit longer, a bit slower, maybe even a bit more even between teams. How do you then balance champions around it? Going back to my previous post, how do you decide that Ziggs is doing too well at getting towers early, and what do you do about it? Is it Ziggs' fault that roaming mid laners are popular, so he is picked to pressure mid? Is that not a valid counter strategy? Does enforcing one state of game balance remove options that would otherwise be valid if there was no enforcement? In other words, if Ziggs is nerfed because he's taking tower too fast, doesn't that defeat the point of picking Ziggs against a roaming mid - all because it was decided that turrets, on average, shouldn't go down before 12 minutes? Doesn't that give an unfair advantage to the roaming mids?

The big question on the state of the game's balance is, to my mind, "Is the current environment of the game one that every champion can equally succeed in?" Or, to put it another way, "Are there champions that are unsuccessful in the current state of the game?" Now, you can define unsuccessful in any manner of ways, but overall - to me, personally - it feels like I have the opportunity to be successful with any champion I choose for a game. Isn't that a good indication of balance on a champion level, and therefore indicates the game, from at least one point of view, is technically balanced? You may not agree with its balanced state (as I noted, we agree that game pacing could be better) but I never look at champ select and say "Oh, I want to play X and I can't because I will for sure lose with them." And yes, that used to be the case back in season 3 and 4. Eve, Urgot, Kalista - there were a handful of champions that were actually bad across the board, regardless of play, team support, etc.

PickIe Rickkk1 votes

It was an example, not directly reflecting my personal point of view.

I prefer 35-40 minute games 100% of the time I prefer people who cast spells as their primary function to be alpha and auto-attack based be Beta, but do more damage over a 5 second period I prefer first tower going down at 15 minutes

Could you add a TLDR i gtg rn and i cant read all of this

you have valid points and I can explain what I mean by what I said, like outliers in gold differentials being acceptable. Like if you're above the average gold range, you're ahead and will be stronger than an average champion at the current time in your game according to the fundamentals of the game. I didn't mean penalize people who are ahead, or give power to people who are behind.

Reasonably, Defense should be easier to do than offense. Similar to a defensive bonus on allot of games like Risk or RPGs. The attacker can still win, but they have to be either A) Have momentum, B) Use Divide and Conquer strategy. or C) Being able to overpower the defensive bonus Those 3 are very basic and give the defensive side opportunity for counter attacks and strategy. What currently happens now is you just get rolled down mid and the game is unrecoverable by 8 minutes.

DarkinPrime1 votes

Dude, there are 130 champions. I see the same 20 every match. The game is stale, and boring.

underscores2221 votes

I seriously doubt you see the same 20 every match, but I'll go ahead and assume that was hyperbole.

In a quick look at my match history, I see about 40 unique champs in my last 5 games. Considering I've been playing mostly only Kai'sa, that feels like very few repeats (mostly vayne, yasou, and kat). Sure, that's just my experience, but I don't think you can seriously say that there isn't a wide variety being played.

thefourtysn4 votes

League of Legends is unique because it's a game of adaption. If you don't adapt then you will fall 6ft deep, and most games similar to league are literally the same. League is constantly changing the (meta) and compared to other games like league, they seem to keep everything in (balance). Nothing really chances and that's where they lose a good portion of their player base. Nothing new and exciting the same concept with new (in-game) shops and lacking chance of mechanics.

UpDownLeftRightAB4 votes

I didn't realize the META changed so much. When did we change from 1 top 1 mid 2 bot and a jungler?

The actual meta has been stale and forced.

I Main Swain6 votes

{quoted}

I didn't realize the META changed so much. When did we change from 1 top 1 mid 2 bot and a jungler?

The actual meta has been stale and forced.

tfw you dont understand what meta means

UpDownLeftRightAB3 votes

It refers to both ideas. Don't tell me, you didn't realize that meta doesn't only refer to which champions are played but also how the macroplay is oriented.

I Main Swain1 votes

{quoted}

It refers to both ideas. Don't tell me, you didn't realize that meta doesn't only refer to which champions are played but also how the macroplay is oriented.

i do, but your comment implied that you were saying that because the macro meta never changed then the meta must be unchanging

DarkinPrime1 votes

Please. The same handful of champions have been viable for years now. Fresh my ass.

LordGeovanni4 votes

We aren’t looking for a 50% winrate and play rate for every champion, because some champs may always be easier or harder, or more fun to play, or more niche experiences.

Please then why do supposedly hard champions ( Fiora Riven Vayne Yasuo LeeSin ) get buffed everytime they drop 1% below 50% winrate

Kai Guy1 votes

Across the MMRS. Fiora 50%+ only in silver division. Riven under 50%. Vayne Under 50% LeeSin Under 50% Yasuo 50%+ In gold as a top 50% on both roles in silver and bronze. Sub 50 In plat and above.

I see nothing on PBE about any of them. Your point seems to be inaccurate or exaggerated,

LordGeovanni3 votes

didnt think id get to use this so early not even 2 hours https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d1Lx1yQc-M&feature=youtu.be&t=10m5s

Kai Guy1 votes

Shes sub 50%. Shes not on pbe for buffs.

Your point has nothing to do with Hash's comments.

Eerrman2 votes

I heard Riot is targeting shorter games.

SpaghettiVase2 votes

I honestly think they look to see if there's dips in players. Seems that way at least since usually when they talk about why they don't listen to the boards they used the whole "The majority loves our changes" rhetoric.

Colton1471 votes

Perhaps balance is when Ziggs reaches 100% win rate... A win rate he honestly deserves.

I Main Swain1 votes

you cant completely measure the success of a champion based on nothing but numbers, there are factors that arent really measurable by numbers very easily such as a champions kit being toxic or having a popular theme

also, you cant just demand they explain everything they do and how they do it to you. i dont expect chickfila to write an article explaining the whole process that went into them changing the recipe for their breading if they were to do that or whatever other example you want to use.

LordGeovanni1 votes

They could tell you but then they would have to kill you. Otherwise you would be holding ammo when ever they make a buff that is clearly not dealing with overbearing adcs or overbearing supports (when the only reason supports are overbearing in the first place is because they people they babysit are far to strong to fight and for the support far too strong and thus important to leave alone )

wildfox991 votes

What is your definition of success?

when boards start whining for a champion being exaggeratedly broken,they can call it a succes [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

y0r1ck1 votes

The game is always unbalanced because riot likes it like that. That way they can keep putting out patches to keep the game fresh.

Vanjie1 votes

It honestly changes with champion to champion. They make it up as they go along. The Developers will sit here and tell you Yasuo is an amazing champion, but he really isn't because no one wants to play against him. What do they do? Buff him.

The Minion hunt1 votes

I've asked this many times. I don't think you guys have an answer. I think its just...uh well we feel such and such is too strong, so we are doing this and that. that is how, you want balanced, life aint balanced. 1 champ 0 abilities just right click, same range, all 10 people play it. another one lets watch the minion go at it without champs.

you can pretend math can solve everything, but paper is paper, cut something into 3 exact pieces of same weight, size, and volume down to the smallest measurement and come back and talk to me.

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