Boards›Gameplay

Soooo, what's the basis on all these ad assassin items?

Pierce The Veal··2 votes·2,223 views

Let's establish this first: AD assassins throw in a few autos here and there, and like to nuke people, right? K, here I go:

Maw of malmortius: armor pen, ad, and magic resist with a nice magic shield. Is a good ad item, and pretty good AD caster item. Though this would have been classified as a bruiser item had it been out a year or two back. Pretty much required against most midlaners.

Black cleaver: gives HP. Not really required on an assassin, and gives armor reduction... but you have to attack 6 times to fully activate it, so there's no way for assassins to proc it before they nuke someone: which means it's not really an assassin item. Only reason it's bought is because they're forced because it has 20% cdr and AD.

Youmuu's: ad, armor pen, cdr yay! Active gives movement speed (woot!) and... Attack speed? I though this was only an AD caster item!?

Death's dance: ad and cdr= yay, healing on everyone except kha'zix? Garbage, cause they're all aoe ad assassins. Damage taken turned into bleed? Really? Antiburst, pro sustain, on a would be ad caster item?

Duskblade of drakthurr: Ad, movement speed, and armor pen! Finally something that looks good! But wait! The passive gives even more damage! If you auto attack, something most ad assassins barely do, and have difficulty doing many times. The passive would be great for people tanky enough to get to an enemy while wanting to be able to finish them off, or someone who could easily proc it from afar.

Hmm, is it just me, or is this "ad caster/assassin itemization" just an alternate set of items developed for adcs and bruisers?

41 Comments

Shadòw6 votes

What?

Why should AD Assassins never auto-attack? That's plain Bullshit

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

What?

Why should AD Assassins never auto-attack? That's plain Bullshit

Of all the things to focus on on this entire post,

You had to focus on "never auto attacking," which I never actually said?

In their combos they basically don't auto attack. They never build any attack speed, so they will only toss in an auto or two, which barely allows them to take advantage of duskblade of draktharr. But if you pay real close attention, the main people build duskblade aren't assassins. Moreover, ad assassin mains as a whole thought duskblade was a bad idea, but noooo! It's good on them I swear! Ahem, here you go jhin!

You didn't make any comment on the black cleaver mess? How I have to auto 6 times (or blow my burst to speed it up) to fully proc black cleaver and maximize my damage? Isn't that the best?

Shadòw1 votes

And after your combo or when cleaning up you'll make a lot of aa's as AD Assassin.. Duskblade is an good Item on AD Assassin, it just works well on Jhin too.

And... you know.. Black Cleaver stacks don't necessarily come from AA's..

Any source of physical damage, including spells, apply a stack

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

What?

Why should AD Assassins never auto-attack? That's plain Bullshit

Following up on my previous comment:

Of course we should auto attack. We should use our 0.8 AS to attack 6 times to proc black cleaver, across a whole 7.5 seconds, before we blow our burst.

Shadòw2 votes

...what is your point?

item 3071 stacks apply with all AD Damage, not only on Auto-Attacks.

That's why it is also strong on Assassins, esp. Zed because you usually get all stacks with one combo (2-3q's, 1e,1-2aa's) and have some heavy Ult Damage in the end.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

...what is your point?

item 3071 stacks apply with all AD Damage, not only on Auto-Attacks.

That's why it is also strong on Assassins, esp. Zed because you usually get all stacks with one combo (2-3q's, 1e,1-2aa's) and have some heavy Ult Damage in the end.

Please don't tell me you actually think most assassins (A) hit as many attacks as Zed (B) have delayed burst like Zed. Hint: they don't.

It isn't strong on assassins relative to how strong it is on ADCs and Bruisers. I'm honestly surprised ADCs didn't start building it sooner than they are now.

The point, which you conveniently ignored, is that assassin items are weakest on the class they are intended for.

Shadòw1 votes

And now?

Many Assassins still benefit from the Armor Reducion.

And i don't understand what you mean?

item 3142 anditem 3147 are core on Assassins, the class they were desingned for.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

And now?

Many Assassins still benefit from the Armor Reducion.

And i don't understand what you mean?

item 3142 anditem 3147 are core on Assassins, the class they were desingned for.

Core on literally on only 2 of the assassins in the game, talon and zed. All of the remaining assassins don't build more than half of the items.

Do note that if you don't build these items on talon and zed, you will likely suffer. You at least need one of them (black cleaver) for the cdr, because it's set up that way.

They have no other items they can build, yet these items lend themselves to adcs and bruisers, but it doesn't work the other way around.

Shadòw1 votes

They also work on Khazix and item 3147 at least is very strong on Shaco.

And this pretty much were all AD Assassins that exist in the Game.

And why shoudn't they have other items to build? There is also item 3156 item 3053 oritem 3812 who are all also pretty strong on said Champions.

They have no other items they can build, yet these items lend themselves to adcs and bruisers, but it doesn't work the other way around.

And that's why they should be made meele only.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

They also work on Khazix and item 3147 at least is very strong on Shaco.

And this pretty much were all AD Assassins that exist in the Game.

And why shoudn't they have other items to build? There is also item 3156 item 3053 oritem 3812 who are all also pretty strong on said Champions.

And that's why they should be made meele only.

Maw is legit good. Simply because it's a great bruiser item with a good hunk of damage attached.

Death's dance is literally only good on kha'zix... And lee sin.

Kha'zix can build many of those items, but he would be stupid to do so. Duskblade and youmuu's are both bad for him, and black cleaver is bought if only for the mobility, cdr, and AD.

It's just, many of these items are great on AD assassins, but even better on non-assassins. Because they have stats like attack speed, hp, armor reduction per hit, and damage taken changed to burn damage instead of stats that assassin's would legitimitely want. If we wanted an assassin percent armor pen item, it would give a HUGE amount of penetration but only for a couple seconds. THAT would be a burst item.

My complaint isn't that these items are bad on these champions, it's that they're designed in a way where they're obviously better on other AD champions than on assassins.

Shadòw1 votes

I still don't understand your point. item 3142 and item 3147 are the only Items that have been primarly desinged for assassins, and they work very well on them.

There are not many AD Assassins out there... Talon and Zed are pretty much the only Mid-AD Assassins. But on them, both Items are excellent.

The only problem is that ADCs like Lucian and Jhin no longer go for the late game build, but abuse the huge burst to snowball early. But they were never desinged to be abused on ADCs.

Still, I wouldn't say that the Items are better on other classes apart from ADCs and AD Assassins.

The only reason why ADCs build them in the first place is the current snow-ball meta. Games end way too quickly, before ADCs even get Fullbuild and their classic Crit-Build gets useful.

That's why they simply shit on crit and go for the snowbally item 3142 item 3147 Build. This Items were desinged to be snowbally, perfect for Assassins.

The reason why ADCs abuse them is not bad desing, but because the current Meta shifts too much into snowballing.

Riot needs to do something to make ADCs aim at the late game again, either buffing crit items, or making the Assassin Items meele-only so they won't get abused.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

I still don't understand your point. item 3142 and item 3147 are the only Items that have been primarly desinged for assassins, and they work very well on them.

There are not many AD Assassins out there... Talon and Zed are pretty much the only Mid-AD Assassins. But on them, both Items are excellent.

The only problem is that ADCs like Lucian and Jhin no longer go for the late game build, but abuse the huge burst to snowball early. But they were never desinged to be abused on ADCs.

Still, I wouldn't say that the Items are better on other classes apart from ADCs and AD Assassins.

The only reason why ADCs build them in the first place is the current snow-ball meta. Games end way too quickly, before ADCs even get Fullbuild and their classic Crit-Build gets useful.

That's why they simply shit on crit and go for the snowbally item 3142 item 3147 Build. This Items were desinged to be snowbally, perfect for Assassins.

The reason why ADCs abuse them is not bad desing, but because the current Meta shifts too much into snowballing.

Riot needs to do something to make ADCs aim at the late game again, either buffing crit items, or making the Assassin Items meele-only so they won't get abused.

Ah, good point,

Sooo, why does Youmuu's active give attack speed if it's designed for assassins?

As for duskblade, it's just simply easier to abuse on ranged.

Shadòw2 votes

Assassins profit from Attack Speed a lot too.

When you simply don't have enough Damage when behind, or when you miss your Abilities, the Attack Speed helps you that you are able to still kill your target when you are able to stick to it.

Attack Speed is NOT a useless stat on Assassins

item 3147s stats are simply snowbally.. High AD, Flat Armor Pen and that Passive. It's perfectly desinged for Assassins, but.. like I said, it only gets abused because ADCs now go for high burst and snowball builds. Basically they play like Ranged Assassins. The Meta is the Problem, not the Items.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

I do agree that they benefit from attack speed too, however, they don't benefit nearly as much from it as any other AD class in the game, thus, it becomes abused.

My beef with duskblade is from back on release. We AD assassins protested it, because we would be basically forced to buy it on champions like talon and zed, but the passive is actually not that good for us because we more often than not need to burst a champion immediately, and often end up wasting the passive. Ranged champions are able to abuse it better because they have the luxury of range to proc the passive on the target of their choosing.

Shadòw1 votes

The Passive procs after 2 seconds.

For a Tank focusing classic ADC.. that's way too less time to be effective.

On an assassin it is great because you either kill your target faster and get the passive back, or it helps you to actually get that last piece of Damage done.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

The Passive procs after 2 seconds.

For a Tank focusing classic ADC.. that's way too less time to be effective.

On an assassin it is great because you either kill your target faster and get the passive back, or it helps you to actually get that last piece of Damage done.

More often than not the passive is overkill on an assassin. What an ADC can use it for is two auto twice and and finish anything with less than 3000 hp no problemo. Continue on to use all the armor pen you have to shred the tanks.

The only reason you'd want it on an assassin are the huge stats. The passive itself isn't the best on the intended class.

Shadòw1 votes

Ofc it is.

It only deals damage when the target is low enough. A normal ADC never gets a tank low enough in 2sec so that passive is effective.

Also, the ADCs are also not building it because of the passive. They are also building it because of the snowbally-stats to burst down squishy targets fast.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

black cleaver is not an assassin item, and it was never meant to be. it was always meant to be a bruiser item first.

and the problem as you pointed out, is that for some reason a lot of assassin items like ghostblade and duskblade are still allowed to be purchased on ranged ad carries.

i dont understand why cleaver, ghostblade, and last whisper dont just share the same name passive like they did with maw and steraks. at least that would deal with cases of adc and assassins stacking excessive amounts of armor penetration.

Iageri2 votes

Ghostblade used to be an ADC item.

No one really used (Besides me) it till Riot slapped 20 Armor Pen on it...

However, I wouldn't mind Cleaver or Duskblade being (Melee only)

But some ADCs now depend on ghost blade to even be viable. Twitch He doesn't need to do the armor pen build, but ghost blade is critical to him. What do you expect people to build first on him if they removed it from ADCs?

item 3153 ? You're joking... That's now a **noob trap first item. **

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Ghostblade used to be an ADC item.

No one really used (Besides me) it till Riot slapped 20 Armor Pen on it...

However, I wouldn't mind Cleaver or Duskblade being (Melee only)

But some ADCs now depend on ghost blade to even be viable. Twitch He doesn't need to do the armor pen build, but ghost blade is critical to him. What do you expect people to build first on him if they removed it from ADCs?

item 3153 ? You're joking... That's now a **noob trap first item. **

Ghostblade isn't and was never an "adc" item, and has had armor pen on it since it was released years ago.

Botrk is bad, yes, but not utter garbage.

Iageri2 votes

http://image.prntscr.com/image/1dab3c2668fe413f8eec3ea2ad2daffc.jpeg

BOOM BOOM BOOM! There it is.. Riot endorsing ADCs to use ghost blade. I used ghost blade on her BEFORE THEY MADE THAT HINT! IT WAS BROKEN!

Don't believe me here's the link to those notes from V5.7

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-57-notes

Back then Ghostblade used to give Crit chance and CDR. Active was still the same as it was today...

If you Direct your attention to the Wikki Page..

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Youmuu's_Ghostblade

V5.22:

NEW RECIPE: Caulfield's Warhammer + Serrated Dirk + 1000 Gold = 3200 Gold Attack damage increased to 65 from 30. Critical strike chance removed.

So it wasn't until recently.. that it was then reworked into a PURELY ASSASIN ITEM.

So it did always have armor pen.. but it's been a long time.. Can't expect me to remember everything about every item.

But hot damn.. If it was how it used to be it would still be nice on tristana with that crit chance..

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

http://image.prntscr.com/image/1dab3c2668fe413f8eec3ea2ad2daffc.jpeg

BOOM BOOM BOOM! There it is.. Riot endorsing ADCs to use ghost blade. I used ghost blade on her BEFORE THEY MADE THAT HINT! IT WAS BROKEN!

Don't believe me here's the link to those notes from V5.7

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-57-notes

Back then Ghostblade used to give Crit chance and CDR. Active was still the same as it was today...

If you Direct your attention to the Wikki Page..

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Youmuu's_Ghostblade

V5.22:

NEW RECIPE: Caulfield's Warhammer + Serrated Dirk + 1000 Gold = 3200 Gold Attack damage increased to 65 from 30. Critical strike chance removed.

So it wasn't until recently.. that it was then reworked into a PURELY ASSASIN ITEM.

So it did always have armor pen.. but it's been a long time.. Can't expect me to remember everything about every item.

But hot damn.. If it was how it used to be it would still be nice on tristana with that crit chance..

No, it was considered garbage on ADCs back then. Some random rioter saying you can build ghostblade on tristana doesn't make it an adc item. It built out of brutalizer back then, which, for your information, was considered core on ad casters. Additionally, zed and talon benefitted from the crit chance when they built ie, allowing their burst to be even burstier.

If anything, it was made into an "ADC item" back when ghostcrawler upped the active duration for ranged champions from 4 to 6 seconds, same as melees.

As for it being chaned to 65 ad 0 crit chance, do you know why they did that? Because back then, like now, Youmuu's was being built on so many adcs that it wasn't even funny. Draven and lucian being notable ones.

Iageri2 votes

Because back then, like now, Youmuu's was being built on so many adcs that it wasn't even funny. Draven and lucian being notable ones.

AND IT STILL IS! GUESS WHAT

YOU JUST PROVED MY POINT IT'S ALWAYS BEEN BUILT ON ADCs!

GOOD DAY TO YOU SIR!

#ADC ITEM

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

AND IT STILL IS! GUESS WHAT

YOU JUST PROVED MY POINT IT'S ALWAYS BEEN BUILT ON ADCs!

GOOD DAY TO YOU SIR!

#ADC ITEM

And my point is, it's always been the "assassin item." Way back in season two, we rushed brutalizer, and later upgraded into you know what? Youmuu's. I don't know how one can possibly not comprehend that an item intended for one class is being abused by another class.

Actually you're right. Zhonya's (yes adcs have abused this item too), guardian angel, black cleaver, duskblade, youmuu's, and death's dance are all adc items.

Now give me my assassin items.

Iageri1 votes

Okay then, lets be mature and real here and say..

It is a high burst item that is used by many ADCs and Assassins

I don't know how one can possibly not comprehend that an item intended for one class is being abused by another class.

Yea it's called Mages and support items...

This is why none of the classes can have "Nice" things.

Because in turn if something nice came out for ADCs that could benefit assasians they'd use it..

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Okay then, lets be mature and real here and say..

It is a high burst item that is used by many ADCs and Assassins

Yea it's called Mages and support items...

This is why none of the classes can have "Nice" things.

Because in turn if something nice came out for ADCs that could benefit assasians they'd use it..

Name a single item that ADCs got that could benefit assassins.

My point is literally every "assassin" item released has something non assassin sneaked in. Assassins don't want attack speed, assassins don't want anti burst, assassins don't want hp, assassins don't want to sit around attacking somethig to reduce their armor, assassins don't want to be unable to harrass a champion with their autoattacks because of a passive.

How hard is this for Riot and the community to comprehend? The only reason they're being "abused" is because they're purposefully designed to be able to be abused.

Iageri1 votes

item 3812 Not really beneficial to assassins, but I've seen other classes Riven using it.

And yeah, this came with the Marksman itemizations.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/na/site/2016-season-update/preseason.html

Dude.. items get used by anyone who can use it to it's fullest extent.

There's no (Melee Only) sticker on that item so riot doesn't give a shit...

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

item 3812 Not really beneficial to assassins, but I've seen other classes Riven using it.

And yeah, this came with the Marksman itemizations.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/na/site/2016-season-update/preseason.html

Dude.. items get used by anyone who can use it to it's fullest extent.

There's no (Melee Only) sticker on that item so riot doesn't give a shit...

We don't see titanic hydra and ravenous hydra on ranged champions for a reason.

But when Rito freaking promises these items as assassin items, and then builds them in a way that makes them much better on everyone other than assassins, then we have a problem.

That's also why freakjng ADCs are building armorpen AD now: because AD caster itemization was purposefully designed to lend itself to sustained damage dealers.

WoonStruck2 votes

Originally, Ghostblade was weaker on ranged champions.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Originally, Ghostblade was weaker on ranged champions.

This, yes.

Then the Ghostcrawler appeared.

Sona Ping1 votes

Fervor of Battle is weaker on ranged champions, does that make it not an ADC mastery?

BloodyTompon1 votes

It's better to have them softly stat bound than strictly preventing it. People tend to feel it limits the possibilities when there are strict 'can't be bought' cases like hydra.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

{quoted}

It's better to have them softly stat bound than strictly preventing it. People tend to feel it limits the possibilities when there are strict 'can't be bought' cases like hydra.

??? Hydra's passive wasn't working on ranged, you could still buy it.

Sona Ping1 votes

The issue is that your question is built on a false premise.

Just like how there is no such thing "AP assassin items" (e.g. Diana builds item 3001 but so does Galio &Viktor ) and there is no such thing as a "fighter item", there is no such thing as "AD assassin items".

You've got the wrong kind of game, this isn't one those games where you can't equipped the jeweled ceremonial dagger that the giant, fanged rat was carrying (somehow) as your Dexterity score isn't high enough because your mage just... forgets how to hold a knife if its quality is too high.

Items in this game are sets of stats and abilities that you buy if they would help your character. Players freely buy whatever combination of items to craft strategies to help them win. Certain items are bought for their benefits to the character and so consequently, those items are bought for other characters for those same or other benefits.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qAfyjRtH,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-08-04T20:00:48.201+0000)

The issue is that your question is built on a false premise.

Just like how there is no such thing "AP assassin items" (e.g. Diana builds item 3001 but so does Galio &Viktor ) and there is no such thing as a "fighter item", there is no such thing as "AD assassin items".

You've got the wrong kind of game, this isn't one those games where you can't equipped the jeweled ceremonial dagger that the giant, fanged rat was carrying (somehow) as your Dexterity score isn't high enough because your mage just... forgets how to hold a knife if its quality is too high.

Items in this game are sets of stats and abilities that you buy if they would help your character. Players freely buy whatever combination of items to craft strategies to help them win. Certain items are bought for their benefits to the character and so consequently, those items are bought for other characters for those same or other benefits.

Please stop playing dumb.

You're telling me that there aren't "adc items" and class specific items, when there are literally entire item sets that work perfectly on adcs, and mages, and even supports respectively. Need crit, attack speed, ad, and lifesteall? Good, here are these items that have exactly what you want, and you don't have to pay for anything else. Also, don't worry, no one else would use them because they're simply not good on anyone who isn't a ranged carry.

You want cdr? Armorpen? Quick burst? AD? Here have an item that has some of that and needs to you to sit around attacking. Here's one with delayed burst. Here's one with attack speed.

AcidTheWarlock1 votes

The whole issue is that there really aren't designated stats for assassins, and it was stated that the reworks were meant to define that.

Mages want AP, CDR, and mana, just like fighters want resistances and tanks want HP.

AD itemization needs to be looked at as well.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

The whole issue is that there really aren't designated stats for assassins, and it was stated that the reworks were meant to define that.

Mages want AP, CDR, and mana, just like fighters want resistances and tanks want HP.

AD itemization needs to be looked at as well.

There are.

AD, CDR, armor penetration, spell/physical vamp, and movement speed.

A potential stat is animation speed.

These are and have all been clearly identified as AD caster stats. So far the only item to offer these and only these is duskblade (death's dance has damage reduction). Yet, duskblade is triggered by autos and not manually, and is therefore much better on ADCs who can easily trigger it from afar.

A proposition of mine was to remove the damage reduction on death's dance, drop its physical vamp to 8%, and instead make it convert all spell vamp and lifesteal into physical vamp.

AcidTheWarlock1 votes

item 3074 item 3748 are both good AD assassin items.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

item 3074 item 3748 are both good AD assassin items.

An hp AD item

And a legitimitely ok AD lifesteal item. Just so you know, many AD assassins have dropped ravenous hydra from their build altogether because it's too expensive with too litlle benefit.

zlumpy1 votes

Maybe the problem with assassins isn't the items....maybe it's the assassins themselves.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe the problem with assassins isn't the items....maybe it's the assassins themselves.

Maybe I'm not complaiming about AD assassins? Maybe my issue is that ADCs and bruisers are making better use of AD assassin items than assassins themselves are?

I'm just here to point out how every assassin item coincidentally either has stats used best by other classes, or is harder to make use for assassins than other assassins (duskblade is easier to proc with a ranged, black cleaver requires you to stick around and attack many many times).

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Pierce The Veal

You want to know what makes League feel so bad now?
Gameplay110 comments
138
votes
Let's Brainstorm a Solution to Dynamic Queue
Gameplay221 comments
106
votes
Melee champions should have more damage or tank potential than ranged champions
Gameplay158 comments
41
votes
In regards to off meta play, why does everyone imply communication works at all?
Gameplay52 comments
27
votes
PSA urgot’s ult does *not* heal him to full with death’s dance
Gameplay31 comments
23
votes
In the pursuit of skill we have killed off strategy
Gameplay13 comments
20
votes