Does anyone mind explaining to me...

Pierce The Veal·May 16, 2016·3 votes·935 views

Why Nocturne's passive is recieving AP scaling? Of all the buffs for him that Riot could think of, it was to give his passive heal AP scaling.

Nocturne:

Umbra Blades (Passive) now has a .5 AP ratio per unit hit.

0.5 AP healing PER UNIT HIT

What is he supposed to do build a Cap? This just doesn't make sense at all, both thematically, and from a balance perspective. The most AP nocturne used to ever get in his builds was 30 AP from trinity force. Guess what? Trinity force doesn't have AP anymore.

Are we trying to encourage him to build the new Guinsoo's? Is that what we're trying to do? Why isn't he allowed to have his heal scale with AD like fancy old Xin Zhao?

And now we're going to have full AP nocturne's running around thinking it's a legitimate build. And you know the crazy thing? That heal is gonna be insane on an full AP nocturne, but it sure as hell isn't going to make Nocturne more viable or useful, and definitely isn't going to help him fulfill his role as a bruiser/assassin/melee carry.

http://champion.gg/champion/Nocturne His champion.gg page for reference. LOOKK AT IT. I DON'T SEE ANY ON HITS OR AP ON HIS CORE BUILDS. DO YOU?

38 Comments

Sona PingMay 16, 20162 votes

It's simply to make it so that if the choice is made to buy Guinsoo it is not a huge gold dump on completely wasted stats. AP Ratios are likely being given out to a few champs because it's a "free" buff; it is a buff increases usability of the champion but is unlikely to grant any "real" power so it can be easily given out without repercussion or effecting the champions power budget, so they do not have to adjust the champions power down in other areas.

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q9ALnxPZ,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-05-16T19:49:42.330+0000)

It's simply to make it so that if the choice is made to buy Guinsoo it is not a huge gold dump on completely wasted stats. AP Ratios are likely being given out because it's a "free" buff; it is a buff increases usability of the champion but is unlikely to grant any "real" power so it can be easily given out without repercussion or effecting the champions power budget, so they do not have to adjust the champions power down in other areas.

Historically buffs that "gave little power" ended up completely changing how the champion played and did become part of their power budget. The reason I'm worried now is because that buff on Nocturne will shift a huge amount of power. It's 0.5 AP healing per UNIT HIT.

Think about that for a second. It's not hard to hit 6 units with Nocturne. That's 3.0 AP healing. If he has 100 AP that's 300 HP. 200? Then 600 HP. That will definitely majorly impact his playstyle.

Sona PingMay 16, 20161 votes

"It's 0.5 AP healing per UNIT HIT. " You kind of buried the lead with this one, dude. Anyways, that is quite a bit and we know Riot has made changes that are a little... unrefined, let's say, () so it is something to keep an eye on, you have that right imo.

Let's think on this one for a bit. Well, what scenarios are there where he would be hitting that many targets? 1 There are jungle camps with 3-4 but not taking damage from camps when it's late enough to get Guinsoo's isn't that big a deal. 2 Diving into a team he can hit 5 champions, but when fighting champions, he usually targets a single champion away from others and usually doesn't hit anything else. If he does into a group that singles him out for focus and the average Nocturne build wouldn't survive that long, right? Nocturnes usually build damage to focus a vulnerable target, not really survivability.

Nocturne only has one AP scaling right now, so it seems he is not particularly enticed to go more than Guinsoo's. And if it does make for some variations in builds, I don't see that being necessarily a bad thing. As you noted, Deathcap Nocturne is not going to be useful. Well, I'm just raising questions, and waiting to see. Thoughts?

P.S. edit:

{quoted} Which is silly because perhaps these champions shouldn't have to rely on rageblade.

Truth. They need buffs outside of Guinsoo's synergy.

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q9ALnxPZ,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-05-16T20:33:11.212+0000)

"It's 0.5 AP healing per UNIT HIT. " You kind of buried the lead with this one, dude. Anyways, that is quite a bit and we know Riot has made changes that are a little... unrefined, let's say, () so it is something to keep an eye on, you have that right imo.

Let's think on this one for a bit. Well, what scenarios are there where he would be hitting that many targets? 1 There are jungle camps with 3-4 but not taking damage from camps when it's late enough to get Guinsoo's isn't that big a deal. 2 Diving into a team he can hit 5 champions, but when fighting champions, he usually targets a single champion away from others and usually doesn't hit anything else. If he does into a group that singles him out for focus and the average Nocturne build wouldn't survive that long, right? Nocturnes usually build damage to focus a vulnerable target, not really survivability.

Nocturne only has one AP scaling right now, so it seems he is not particularly enticed to go more than Guinsoo's. And if it does make for some variations in builds, I don't see that being necessarily a bad thing. As you noted, Deathcap Nocturne is not going to be useful. Well, I'm just raising questions, and waiting to see. Thoughts?

P.S. edit:

Truth. They need buffs outside of Guinsoo's synergy.

Finally someone who can see what I'm trying to say. I'll edit my original post with that "per unit hit." I was a little too hurried and I assumed people would know his heal was based on how many people he hit.

Anyway, variations in builds are welcome, but this change is evidently not going to be just a variation in build. Do note that guinsoos makes his lassive trigger faster, and here's what's scariest about it: splitpushing. That heal might not be the best in team fights, but I can bet you that if he survives a fight his having some AP will guarantee a full heal afterwards, on top of making him MUCH stronger at surviving during the fight.

It's actually not going to make AP nocturne viable, but Lich bane nashors, gunblade, guinsoos, rab cap is gonna be scarier than people think.

And my issue really is that this doesn't suit his identity. He's supposed to be an assassin that picks people off, like a living nightmare that shreds people. HE NEVER REALLY LIKED DEVOURER IN THE FIRST PLACE. The highest winrate builds on him always went warrior instead of devourer. There is literally no reason to make Guinsoos enticing on him now, considering he was never an on hit champion.

At least shyvana and Yi liked devourer. Nocturne didn't like it that much. He literally has no on hits besides his passive, which he doesn't like all that much. While I'm willing to accept shyvana's changes, there's no reason to get a bystander like Nocturne involved in this hybridization effort.

TehNACHOMay 16, 20162 votes

like fancy old Xin Zhao?

Please don't delude yourself.

Honestly, Nocturne doesn't even need a straight buff. He's rocking a 50% overall win rate and performs above average in general in the Jungle. Any AD orientated buff could skew his already decent balance due to how AD heavy his favorite items are. On the other hand:

Are we trying to encourage him to build the new Guinsoo's? Is that what we're trying to do?

Is there anything wrong with this? He isn't building Guinsoo's anyway. All this is doing is opening up another build path for him. I thought people on the boards like build diversity.

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Please don't delude yourself.

Honestly, Nocturne doesn't even need a straight buff. He's rocking a 50% overall win rate and performs above average in general in the Jungle. Any AD orientated buff could skew his already decent balance due to how AD heavy his favorite items are. On the other hand:

Is there anything wrong with this? He isn't building Guinsoo's anyway. All this is doing is opening up another build path for him. I thought people on the boards like build diversity.

My point is that if he needed a buff, a fucking AD scaling buff would be what he wanted.

I've been here since season late season 1-early season 2. I know what fucking happens when Riot "opens another build path for a champion." It becomes the only fucking way to build that champion pretty quickly. After this buff I won't be doing myself any favors by not building Guinsoo's on Nocturne. Same thing goes for Gunblade. Next thing you know they have to nerf something somewhere else in his kit to make up for it, and bam, his original playstyle is now much worse than his Guinsoos playstyle.

You know what that fucking means? He will have less build diversity due to this change. "Don't delude yourself."

Wolfram OxfordMay 16, 20161 votes

They gave three devourer junglers (Yi, Shyv, Nocturne) AP scaling to benefit them if they happen to build Rageblade.

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wolfram Oxford,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q9ALnxPZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-16T19:28:01.893+0000)

They gave three devourer junglers (Yi, Shyv, Nocturne) AP scaling to benefit them if they happen to build Rageblade.

Which is silly because perhaps these champions shouldn't have to rely on rageblade. They're just making it so that they're pigeonholed into building it.

BeldairMay 16, 20161 votes

I always built Shyv like a bruiser....Cinderhulk, DMP, Warmogs, Titanic, Berserkers, Bloodthirster.

Has worked wonderfully for me.

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I always built Shyv like a bruiser....Cinderhulk, DMP, Warmogs, Titanic, Berserkers, Bloodthirster.

Has worked wonderfully for me.

I mean, that makes sense. And she is actually the champion who I don't really have problems with getting AP ratios on her skills because she already does magic damage. But how would you like it if she got nerfed in other area because hybrid Shyvana got too strong?

With the buffs coming to her, that probably won't happen. But with the 0.5 AP per unit hit coming to Nocturne, I would be surprised if it didn't majorly shift his power.

BeldairMay 16, 20161 votes

If she had nerfs in other areas i would be livid...when i jungle, she is my comfort jungle pick.

Noc on the other hand, I only played him a couple times (wasn't great with him) so idk how bad the AP scaling will be on him but judging from ppl's builds on him, i'd say it's gonna be dreadful.

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If she had nerfs in other areas i would be livid...when i jungle, she is my comfort jungle pick.

Noc on the other hand, I only played him a couple times (wasn't great with him) so idk how bad the AP scaling will be on him but judging from ppl's builds on him, i'd say it's gonna be dreadful.

Better build AP onhits on a champion who doesn't like onhits and builds either like an ADC, Ad caster, or bruiser.

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wolfram Oxford,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q9ALnxPZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-16T19:28:01.893+0000)

They gave three devourer junglers (Yi, Shyv, Nocturne) AP scaling to benefit them if they happen to build Rageblade.

Do note that Nocturne didn't like devourer over warrior enchant.

lagomorph129May 16, 20161 votes

I saw a video that theorized it so well. I agree on the premise that it's for HYBRID purposes as opposed to gimmicky full AP purposes, but we'll see what happens. Nobody's perfect, after all; and that very well includes rito.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpMvwWaf6zc

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I saw a video that theorized it so well. I agree on the premise that it's for HYBRID purposes as opposed to gimmicky full AP purposes, but we'll see what happens. Nobody's perfect, after all; and that very well includes rito.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpMvwWaf6zc

I mean, sure, let's turn three non hybrid champions into hybrids out of nowhere instead of admitting we fucked up with an item. Shyvana is literally the only champion that somewhat makes sense as a hybrid.

lagomorph129May 16, 20161 votes

Everything started SOMEWHERE.

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Everything started SOMEWHERE.

Yeah,

And I'm saying it shouldn't start with champions that were never hybrid in the first place.

Maybe it should freaking start with champions that are intended to be hybrids. I don't understand why you people think it's a good idea for them to change how three champions play and balance them around a playstyle that their playerbase doesn't want. As I said earlier, it's like buffing hybrid items by giving Annie ad scalings.

"This is different," they say. "This time we're using on hits for hybrids."

Because on hits worked so well with feral flare and devourer. And even more because hybrids worked so well as a class. So now it's a good idea to take some on hit champions, make them hybridish, and wallah! "By combining two forms of imbalance and messing with the playstyles of of champions that people love, we can create balance from imbalance! Duh!"

Look, I don't mind an AP scaling here or there. I'd just change my build to include guinsoos and gunblade, but next thing I know tomorrow we won't be able to play these champions like we used to enjoy playing them.

xShiNjiNxMay 16, 20161 votes

Maybe sm1 will take that garbage mastery point that gives ad and ap per lvl instead of lifesteal and spell vamp

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Maybe sm1 will take that garbage mastery point that gives ad and ap per lvl instead of lifesteal and spell vamp

Lol 15 ap 10 AD.

Lol.

Let me consi- Rofl stop.

xShiNjiNxMay 16, 20161 votes

Lol that's how I felt abt it... if they Wana make nocturne a hybrid champ, which idk if I'd be opposed to it or not, then they're gana have to do more than just give his utility spells an ap ratio. Aka his E and passive.

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Lol that's how I felt abt it... if they Wana make nocturne a hybrid champ, which idk if I'd be opposed to it or not, then they're gana have to do more than just give his utility spells an ap ratio. Aka his E and passive.

Exactly! But here's the deal, Nocturne is traditionally not a hybrid champion, why do they have to force him to be? He didn't even like getting guinsoos, and he only built devourer as his jungle item before because it happened to be the seemingly best jungle item for him. Heck! The highest winrates for Nocturne were when he built the warrior enchant.

So why is he of all people becoming a hybrid champion?

xShiNjiNxMay 16, 20161 votes

I mean, at the end of the day he's not getting nerfed, so I wouldn't really complain. I just think it's a weak attempt to make him stronger with hybrid items. Nocturne likes attack speed, and he likes the health on his passive. I personally loved the synergy with feral flare, however that's gone. So maybe they're looking to give him that spark back. However for 3600 gold, that's gana be hard to get esp with its clunky build path, at least with botrk u get cutless along the way when building a 3400 gold item. I doubt it'll help too much. 3600 gold in the jungle with a bad build path is going to be hard to do.

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I mean, at the end of the day he's not getting nerfed, so I wouldn't really complain. I just think it's a weak attempt to make him stronger with hybrid items. Nocturne likes attack speed, and he likes the health on his passive. I personally loved the synergy with feral flare, however that's gone. So maybe they're looking to give him that spark back. However for 3600 gold, that's gana be hard to get esp with its clunky build path, at least with botrk u get cutless along the way when building a 3400 gold item. I doubt it'll help too much. 3600 gold in the jungle with a bad build path is going to be hard to do.

It's not gonna help him. It's going to pigeonhole him into either being forced to build guinsoo's and gunblade because of their sheer power, or avoid touching any AP altogether because he already scales too well with AD.

Perhaps at the end of this day he won't be getting nerfed. But trust me, if this huild path gets strong at all, or isn't strong enough, Riot will be changing him even more to make up for their mistake.

xShiNjiNxMay 16, 20161 votes

I know what ur saying, but I don't think it'll get to the point u are fearing. Afterall shyvana and xin arnt doing too bad being hybrids, with or without rageblade.

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I know what ur saying, but I don't think it'll get to the point u are fearing. Afterall shyvana and xin arnt doing too bad being hybrids, with or without rageblade.

As a Nocturne player, I don't want him to become a hybrid champion. He's NEVER been good as a hybrid. Forcing him into it isn't going to improve his playstyle or make him more fun to play.

xShiNjiNxMay 16, 20161 votes

How is giving him an ap scaling forcing anything? Yi has an ap scaling on his W and he use to only be built as crit/dmg/attack speed. (aside from when ap yi was super popular and later nerfed) I think you are blowing this out of proportion forsure.

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

How is giving him an ap scaling forcing anything? Yi has an ap scaling on his W and he use to only be built as crit/dmg/attack speed. (aside from when ap yi was super popular and later nerfed) I think you are blowing this out of proportion forsure.

Let me ask you a question. If you give someone a scaling on an ability, and the scaling is too good to pass up, would you willingly build any other way? That 0.5 AP scaling per unit hit is INSANE. It's something that completely changes Nocturne. It's not something that's "blown out of proportion." It will definitely take a huge part of his power budget.

xShiNjiNxMay 16, 20161 votes

Rengar has an 80% ap scaling on his W although ap rengar is viable, it is by no means superior, nor does it pigeonhole him into a hybrid build.

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Rengar has an 80% ap scaling on his W although ap rengar is viable, it is by no means superior, nor does it pigeonhole him into a hybrid build.

But that's how he was designed. And do you know what the best build for release rengar was? AP RENGAR!

When certain scalings are too good to not take advantage of, then that champion will almost have to utilize them to do well, at least relative to their other buildpaths.

Simply put, putting that 50% ap scaling on Nocturne is going to either be useless, or it's going to break him. After which they'll either have to buff it till it's useful, or nerf the rest of his kit until he's not OP if they want to keep that scaling tacked on. In short, no matter what happens, this will end up in further changes to Nocturne, unless it somehow perfectly doesn't change him at all (hint: it definitely will) and Riot decides to insist on making it work. That odds of that happening are zero to none.

There's just no reason to put it on him. He was already a warrior jungler, not a devourer user. He has AD in his kit, and no on hits besides an occasional passive proc, and his AD scalings are good. There's no reason to make this change besides using him as canon fodder for their future changes.

xShiNjiNxMay 17, 20161 votes

There's just no reason to put it on him. He was already a warrior jungler, not a devourer user.

This is where ur thinking is flawed.. Nocturne has statistically preferred the attack speed jungle item. (flare) (devourer) etc..

The reason why people bought warrior over devourer in higher elos is because they couldn't afford to delay a power spike as long as devourer took to stack. Warrior is good the second you buy it, doesn't need to ramp up. Thats why it was bought when devourer was around, not because it was a better stat for him, but because it gave him damage NOW and didnt have to wait 20 mins to stack.

Pierce The VealMay 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

This is where ur thinking is flawed.. Nocturne has statistically preferred the attack speed jungle item. (flare) (devourer) etc..

The reason why people bought warrior over devourer in higher elos is because they couldn't afford to delay a power spike as long as devourer took to stack. Warrior is good the second you buy it, doesn't need to ramp up. Thats why it was bought when devourer was around, not because it was a better stat for him, but because it gave him damage NOW and didnt have to wait 20 mins to stack.

Nocturne has never built on hits. And as a champion who passively gains attack speed from his W, he scaled and continues to scale harder with flat AD. Unlike Shyvana and Yi HE HAS NO PASSIVE ON HITS. His passive stacking a little faster wasn't good enough for him to justify devourer. The new bloodrazor instantly gives its damage, why don't we see people building it?

As a matter of fact, Nocturne loves armor pen, he scales massively with AD, and the more CDR he has the harder he can stick to people and the more often he can use his ultimate. 40% cdr on him is core.

You'd think that as a champion that "preferred" attack speed items, he'd be building more attack speed than a ghostblade in his build nowadays...

I've been playing him since Day 1. I know his ins and outs. Simply put, he is more of a hit hard champion than someone who likes to hit you hundreds of times.

xShiNjiNxMay 17, 20161 votes

That explains why he built flare + botrk so much and devourer + botrk, cuz he doesn't scale with attack speed... here a derp

WeatheredMay 16, 20161 votes

Because Guinsoos is a hybrid item. It's so that they can effectively use all of it's stats, thus making it a better item for hybrid champions (which Shyv and Noc are becoming) instead of just being an abused item because it's overloaded. Now they want champions to only use it when they can use it efficiently, kind of like triforce.

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Because Guinsoos is a hybrid item. It's so that they can effectively use all of it's stats, thus making it a better item for hybrid champions (which Shyv and Noc are becoming) instead of just being an abused item because it's overloaded. Now they want champions to only use it when they can use it efficiently, kind of like triforce.

What if we made the item useful, rather than making it so that these champions basically have no choice but to build it. It's like trying to buff Annie and then giving all of her abilities an AD ratio, and then wondering why Gunblade is almost always in her builds.

Zane ZephyrMay 16, 20161 votes

Moobeat literally said directly to me that it's because they want hybrid items to feel better

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zane Zephyr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q9ALnxPZ,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-05-16T19:37:22.530+0000)

Moobeat literally said directly to me that it's because they want hybrid items to feel better

Yeah. So the way they make hybrid items better is by changing non hybrid champions into hybrids, without touching Jax, Kayle, Akali, Skarner, you know, the real hybrids.

Akali is SO HOTMay 16, 20161 votes

To make getting rageblade on him better.

Pierce The VealMay 16, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q9ALnxPZ,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-05-16T20:04:11.300+0000)

To make getting rageblade on him better.

Which he already didn't like getting, even when devourer was around. In fact, kore often than not, warrior was better on him than devourer. He scales with ad, not on hits.