Can we get a utility de-warding item?

only zhule·Jan 9, 2020·34 votes·13,056 views

is a thing. can we maybe get something similar for champions who DON'T build attack damage and lethality?

I know as a support it really sucks that i can only clear like 1 (2 if i'm super lucky) ward per use of my . Not that i don't find more, but that my champion attacks so freaking slow that i can't land 6 basics before the item runs it's course.

36 Comments

Metal JannaJan 9, 202031 votes

For real. Much as I hate how hard it is to maintain vision lately it's annoying that the midlane assassin has more power over vision dominance (the support's job) than the supports do.

Waka FIockaJan 9, 202018 votes

[{quoted}](name=Metal Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q6P7aLi0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2020-01-09T03:49:34.119+0000)

For real. Much as I hate how hard it is to maintain vision lately it's annoying that the midlane assassin has more power over vision dominance (the support's job) than the supports do.

senna, pyke, and any ad support also gets to do their vision control job much better and safer than everyone else. it's really unfair considering those kinds of champs carry the 1v1 potential while utility and tank supps don't.

PB4UAMEJan 9, 202011 votes

Its so ass backwards only RIOT could have come up with the current support climate.

Nea104Jan 10, 20201 votes

[{quoted}](name=Metal Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q6P7aLi0,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2020-01-09T03:49:34.119+0000)

For real. Much as I hate how hard it is to maintain vision lately it's annoying that the midlane assassin has more power over vision dominance (the support's job) than the supports do.

Indeed. It's such a huge misconception, going on since forever. Plus, now the "support" is supposed to deal tons of damage in exchange. What a wonderful design.

And still, you are forced to call these people "competent", even when they keep doing things like this, and not fixing them for whatever reason.

The thigh guyJan 9, 20208 votes

This ability should never have been given to fucking assassins in the first place.

It flat out removes a part of what little counterplay they have just buy having this ability.

Josh SandJan 9, 20208 votes

^^^ x9000

I dont get why the fuck Assassins get utility added to their build path FOR FREE. The real kicker is that its all really high value utility like Banshees Veil passive or Blackout.

I dont understand the rationale of giving assassins a full menu of different Black Cleaver-calibre items. Its kinda horseshit considering itemization that other classes are dealing with.

Im a support main, and I love Senna, but the freaking Utility from that vision clearing item is absolutely absurd. When paired with a sweeper, its literally more vision clearing power than I would ever need.

That lethality item completely trivializes the vision game - what used to be a strategic choice is now a completely automated auto pilot setting. It completely dumbs down playing for vision control.

Clearing wards used to be a point of skill expression, but this item basically just scripts ward killing. Terrible addition to the game.

RagnaveilJan 9, 20201 votes

I mean, the reason why they have it is the same reason why mages have Zhonyas active: Makes no sense.

Garson211Jan 9, 20206 votes

for me this 3 ward limit is just stupid af,i preffer old time warding no matter what.

AZ FrostJan 9, 20205 votes

Be nice too if wards and pots had a separate spot rather than the main 6 slots. It sucks when you're full build with 6 items and you can't buy a pink ward.

only zhuleJan 9, 20202 votes

[{quoted}](name=AZ Frost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q6P7aLi0,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2020-01-09T07:35:06.807+0000)

Be nice too if wards and pots had a separate spot rather than the main 6 slots. It sucks when you're full build with 6 items and you can't buy a pink ward.

Totally agree, i mean even as a support sometimes i'm stuck between needing wards and needing a 6th slot for part of an item (rarely get to 6 full built)

Starcraft243verJan 9, 20203 votes

[{quoted}](name=AZ Frost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q6P7aLi0,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2020-01-09T07:35:06.807+0000)

Be nice too if wards and pots had a separate spot rather than the main 6 slots. It sucks when you're full build with 6 items and you can't buy a pink ward.

It's done on purpose.

C0NCH0BARJan 9, 20205 votes

I brought this exact point up and got so much criticism for it. The points against me were that AP supports can build things like redemption for long range aoe healing, ardent censor for shield/stat boosting, Mikaels Crucible for a cleanse, and Athene's Unholy Grail for shield/healing boosting.

Having their own unique way of utility boosting should be allowed, which seems fair to me. However, with vision being SOOOOO important and having fights revolve entirely around it, it just feels so bad with a huge part of your influence in the game being put at a huge disadvantage.

Pika FoxJan 10, 20202 votes

{quoted}

I brought this exact point up and got so much criticism for it. The points against me were that AP supports can build things like redemption for long range aoe healing, ardent censor for shield/stat boosting, Mikaels Crucible for a cleanse, and Athene's Unholy Grail for shield/healing boosting.

Having their own unique way of utility boosting should be allowed, which seems fair to me. However, with vision being SOOOOO important and having fights revolve entirely around it, it just feels so bad with a huge part of your influence in the game being put at a huge disadvantage.

Look at it this way; An assassin style champion has a bigger desire to disable/clear wards theyre passing through to make plays. A utility based champ has far less desire and benefit to do this, as them being spotted doesnt really negate a play being made, given they literally cannot make plays, they prevent plays or turn plays. Someone else is the one initiating them.

Having the playstyle difference in assassins asserting control via blacking out wards to make plays versus enchanters enhancing their utility across the map or negating opposing utility is a better diffusion of power between the types of supports.

Senna being the oddball in the mix, as she can kinda do either or, or both, but neither to an amazing extent.

C0NCH0BARJan 10, 20201 votes

That's a really good viewpoint. I like it. Helps negate some of the frustration of it, though it still feels bad XD Good perspective bud. I appreciate it.

Hay5eedJan 9, 20203 votes

item 3179 is awful and these type of items need to be removed, not expanded on.

This passive does way too much for the player.

1.) Lets you know when you can be seen

2.) Reveals the ward for you

3.) Lets you kill it in one hit

Shit I've been occasionally building this on supports because of how busted this passive is.

notkaiJan 9, 20202 votes

I'm not even sure an additional item would be needed. I think that perhaps the sweeping lens trinket could be adapted into a tiered item, with supports paying more gold to upgrade it to receive an extended duration of ward revealing, to compensate for supports who can't attack wards quickly. Or perhaps an effect that lowers the health of surrounding enemy wards during the reveal. Something that would keep the sweeping lens tricket accessible to other roles who might want to monitor enemy vision in their area, but allow junglers and supports who don't build lethality/ad to pay for increased efficiency.

Of course, this is just an idea. But I agree with the general concept that there should be more effective ways for non lethality/ad, slow-attacking supports to clear enemy vision.

Z3SIeeperJan 9, 20201 votes

I think the only problem is this proposed item possibly being the next "Sightstone" where basically every support has to buy it.

bondkillerczJan 9, 20201 votes

Well, I don't believe that it would be much different from how supports always used to work. You see, there's always something expected from supports - at least bulding a support item. I liked the old ones where you had to pay to upgrade them instead of upgrading automatically after finishing the quest. It's for the reason that the bs pseudo-supports (Brand, Xerath, Lux, Yasuo, etc.) would almost never upgrade and wouldn't have that much vision power as they have now with an automatic upgrade which they don't have to pay for. Because of that I believe that making that item would make bot lane more enjoyable again because these champs wouldn't appear on bot that often (this is in the case that it would end up as sightstone) and if it wouldn't end up as Sightstone, then I would be happy to introduce it as a very good way to help supports do their job again. :) My only problem with this item is that I think that Riot's logic would be to give it tons of AP, therefore making it an item for these exact bs pseudo-supports. :/ If there would be an item coming out that would be supposed to serve the purpose of supports, it might have some slight AP but should focus mostly on utility as that makes it undesirable for pseudo-supports.

only zhuleJan 9, 20203 votes

{quoted}

I'm not even sure an additional item would be needed. I think that perhaps the sweeping lens trinket could be adapted into a tiered item, with supports paying more gold to upgrade it to receive an extended duration of ward revealing, to compensate for supports who can't attack wards quickly. Or perhaps an effect that lowers the health of surrounding enemy wards during the reveal. Something that would keep the sweeping lens tricket accessible to other roles who might want to monitor enemy vision in their area, but allow junglers and supports who don't build lethality/ad to pay for increased efficiency.

Of course, this is just an idea. But I agree with the general concept that there should be more effective ways for non lethality/ad, slow-attacking supports to clear enemy vision.

I think just making an AP version would be enough. Biggest issue with caster character is your attack speed is terrible so even if you get lens you its only like 20% as effective vs on an auto attack focused champion.

Then again i think item 3179 is horrible, imagine how stupid the game would be vision wise if item 3364 only has a 45 sec cooldown. Not even accounting for the single shooting of wards, just being able to clear wards/traps every 45 seconds is stupidly powerful.

OleandervineJan 9, 20202 votes

Or, just knock Umbral Glaive out of the AD support arsenal, OR, rework the item so that it gives generic stats for that ability so anyone can use it.

Support PositionJan 9, 20201 votes

Wards right now are so trash, unless your gonna allow 5 wards to be placed and 2 controls. Then no. We don't need anymore dewarding in any way.

OleandervineJan 9, 20203 votes

People want to be on equal footing in terms of vision, not on the shit end of the stick just because Senna cleared all your wards without any effort simply by buying an AD item.

Like, it's understood that vision is in a bad spot. But it sucks HARD for you to be in an EVEN WORSE spot because of this item when you don't have any way to properly counterbalance the vision loss.

Starcraft243verJan 9, 20201 votes

Oracle has a 60s CD in late game, if you run ingenious hunter it's 36 seconds, so, no we do not need more items to remove vision.

only zhuleJan 9, 20205 votes

{quoted}

Oracle has a 60s CD in late game, if you run ingenious hunter it's 36 seconds, so, no we do not need more items to remove vision.

So as a tank, or utility support your going Domination tree? As a tank or utility support you are getting an average game length that gets you to lvl 16 or higher?

Now i'm not saying it's impossible. just saying i can't think of many support champions who go down that route (but i'm also thinking pure supports not other lane champion that COULD support)

Starcraft243verJan 9, 20203 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q6P7aLi0,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2020-01-09T16:55:42.812+0000)

So as a tank, or utility support your going Domination tree? As a tank or utility support you are getting an average game length that gets you to lvl 16 or higher?

Now i'm not saying it's impossible. just saying i can't think of many support champions who go down that route (but i'm also thinking pure supports not other lane champion that COULD support)

it depends, but to be honnest this rune is awesome if you are using a lot of active items, and support are using a lot of active items. You can also keep a pink.

only zhuleJan 9, 20205 votes

{quoted}

it depends, but to be honnest this rune is awesome if you are using a lot of active items, and support are using a lot of active items. You can also keep a pink.

It would be nice if we had a spare slot for wards. really annoying to want/need a ward and have to choose been a 6th item vs. anti warding.

Hell i simple fix would be something that gives the same anti ward passive that item 3179 has. doesn't have to detect wards, just something that allows players to single hit, kill wards. Maybe as a trade off the support warding items regain a ward on a moderate cooldown.

Doge2020Jan 10, 20201 votes

I had a couple of concepts but I accidentally lost them while writing this comment lol.

THIS IS A LONG COMMENT! I’M SORRY IF THE LENGTH ANNOYS YOU

They essentially combined the item 3179 passive and the support item to give supports more vision control. I’m just going to write out the more complete concepts that I had.

EDIT: Now that I am looking at it, this comment would work better as a new post displaying a slight support item rework concept. I’m going to keep the ideas that relate to the anti-ward passive on this comment and compile those ideas with the other ones I was going to write into one post.

Augment support items: these augments (my fancy way of saying upgraded) for the supp items will give support players more variety and control over how they want to play. Unlike the current upgrade system of the support items, these Augments cannot be obtained for free. I think that for how strong the augments are, gold costs are required. I’m also thinking of adding an item “requirement” for each augment. For example: the cost of the Blackout augment can be reduced slightly if the player has a control ward (Another option is to design new items that have the passives/actives of each augment, these new items can only be obtained/purchased if the player has a support income item.

Here I am at a crossroad, any augment effects that are shared with current items would be unique but based on this fact that the effects won’t stack, IDK if I should use the initial idea that the augments who share effects with current items, like Blackout, would be lesser versions of the current item. Gah I’m explaining it bad... using the Blackout augment as an example: should this augment share the same values as the passive on Umbral Glaive? Or should it be a lesser version? A lesser version could vary between shorter duration, longer CD or the blackout effect from the augment will only reveal wards and won’t traps.

New support starting item (suggest names please): it gives the anti-ward passive once it is upgraded to the final form. I’m not that good at balancing values, but I think that this new item would be better off if it gave the user adaptive damage. Honestly idk what this item’s income passive would be. If this idea isn’t too complicated, I guess that this item would fluctuate between the two income passives from the other support items. Players would have to use one of the income passives for a set amount of times (I’m thinking 3-5 uses in a row), but if the player doesn’t set the income path 5 minutes after purchasing the item. It will randomly set the income path and the player can’t change it. In a Gamplay visualization form: before setting the income path, the support with this item can use the Spoils of War passive to execute minions and he can proc the Tribute passive be auto attacking or landing spells on enemy champions. Let’s say the support executes a bunch of minions to the required amount, the item’s income passive is set to only the Spoils of War and he can no longer use the tribute passive to gain income. As broken as this income passive sounds, I think it is fairly balanced because it has a very low threshold to chain the player to a certain path. And it can give supports more flexibility by allowing them to dictate how they receive their income. Example a bot lane lost to an early fight and it is clear the enemy team is going to constantly push the waves to the tower to prevent the poke support from using the Tribute passive. Normally, a support champ with wouldn’t gain a lot of gold, but that same poke supp with this item can instead set the passive to the execute passive and he/she can help the struggling adc to gain income.

Starcraft243verJan 10, 20201 votes

If I remember correctly it's a choice from riot to not allow a special slot for the ward, because in late game they want the vision to be reduced again so every move is riskier.

I'm not saying I do agree with with design decision, but they are doing this on purpose.

Killing wards in one auto would remove the small battles over the wards that happens in botlane and I think these small fight should stay in place.

only zhuleJan 10, 20201 votes

{quoted}

If I remember correctly it's a choice from riot to not allow a special slot for the ward, because in late game they want the vision to be reduced again so every move is riskier.

I'm not saying I do agree with with design decision, but they are doing this on purpose.

Killing wards in one auto would remove the small battles over the wards that happens in botlane and I think these small fight should stay in place.

I would agree if item 3179 did not exist. I think having to battle for vision is great, i just wish that certain champions weren't better at it by nature/ there weren't items designed to favor some champions over others.

Karn BishopJan 9, 20201 votes

What? no we have an issue of lack of vision right now why would we increase vision removal tools further?

OleandervineJan 9, 20201 votes

Yes, this is understood. However, the mere existence of Umbral Glaive gives an insane advantage to someone like Senna or Pyke, who can clear YOUR wards with little to no effort, while someone like Taric, Leona, Janna, or Lulu is at the mercy of their AA and the red trinket to clear wards. Hell, Senna and Pyke don't even need to buy a red trinket in order to clear wards with this item, so already they're at an advantage just for building this item. Asking for an equivalent of this item is not done because people want to exacerbate the low vision problem. It's done because people want to remove the sheer advantage opponents get by having this item on the board.

RagnaveilJan 9, 20201 votes

then lower the damage glaive does to wards. right now it does triple (aka 3 damage).

Crescent DuskJan 9, 20201 votes

[{quoted}](name=only zhule,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q6P7aLi0,comment-id=,timestamp=2020-01-09T02:20:41.009+0000)

is a thing. can we maybe get something similar for champions who DON'T build attack damage and lethality?

I know as a support it really sucks that i can only clear like 1 (2 if i'm super lucky) ward per use of my . Not that i don't find more, but that my champion attacks so freaking slow that i can't land 6 basics before the item runs it's course.

If anything, this game needs more vision, not less. Pretty dumb that as a jungler I can have a pyke constantly harassing my jungle with his rengar and I can't do a single thing about it because they are provided far more vision clear than I can keep up with to prevent dying to the torrent of invades this meta has brought on the jungle.

Clockwork MouseJan 9, 20201 votes

Would be lovely is Riot let you buy Wards fromt he shop and plant as many as you like. And then add a De-warding item like the old Sweeper as an item too. So as a support you can ward up your whole jungle for 1000 gold, and also unward the enemy jungle as well. Maybe we can have a better game with more agressive plays if people don't have to play so safe and guess where the enemy jangler is all the time.

LordGeovanniJan 9, 20201 votes

Have it work on wards Drop 10% cdr and give it some real stats even if the price has to go up https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Arcane_Sweeper_(Item)May Be it Dc's every 15 seconds after destroying a ward.

Sgt Pepper 420Jan 9, 20201 votes

SUGGESTED NEW ITEM: BLINDSTONE (Icon - Ruby Sightstone wearing a Lee Sin blindfold) (or ELEISA"S BLINDSTONE if the proposed ACTIVE is included.)

40 AP 10% CDR 50% Mana Regeneration 10% Heal and Shield Unique Passive: Blackout Part 1 - Reveal all wards and traps - 45 second cooldown. Disabled in favor of Umbral version if that item is owned.

--- OPTIONAL CONSIDERATIONS --- Unique Passive: Blackout Part 2 - 50% Attack Speed vs wards and traps - Disabled in favor of Umbral version is that item is also owned. Unique Passive: Basic attacks deal 15 Magic Damage On Hit Unique Passive: Active Item CDR 10% Unique ACTIVE: Purchase up to 2 max fills at base of "Control Wards" at 75g each. Cannot purchase Control Wards in other item slot if owned.

Build Path: Definitely needs to include item 3114 + item 1026 = 1650g for these two component items. Combine Cost totals presented below.

I think Active Item CDR on an item would be awesome to bring back. The 20% that old RSS had was a bit much - especially if combined with Ingenious Hunter so maybe 10%? But Active CDR only makes sense to add in the context of the next issue...

Blackout Part 2 seems to indicate that an AS item should be part of the build path and I really like this Part 2 because of the slow attack speed of most supports/mages. The only component item that makes any sense at all is Recurve Bow. But Recurve bow adds AS in general not just vs wards and also has on-hit bonus damage. Component item traits are rarely dropped from a final item and AS vs non-wards is not really necessary for supports (maybe Senna and Taric?). On Hit damage also is not really much of a bonus for most supports except maybe Senna Pyke and Taric. So for the combine, you either need to keep the AS in general AND the on-hit damage OR you need to have something bonus to replace them. Active Item CDR would be a useful substitution for these if Recurve is part of the completed item recipe. But Recurve also adds to the component cost to the point that it almost becomes a non-support price range. Recurve+FI+BW = 2650 with zero combine cost.

OPTION 1: item 1043 + item 3114 + item 1026 + ZERO COMBINE COST = 2650 total gold and gets all 3 of the above "OPTIONAL" PASSIVES.

OPTION 2: item 3114 + item 1026 + 450 combine cost = 2100g and gets ONLY "Blackout Part 2" from the optional passives.

OPTION 3: item 3114 + item 1026 + 650 combine cost = 2300g and gets "Blackout Part 2" and the Active Item CDR.

Also, for any of the above, add (+150???) to combine cost if you want to add the possible unique active control ward slots. The biggest downside to adding a control ward active to an item is that it might end up becoming viewed as a mandatory item for all non-AD supports.

I valuate the Active Item CDR as 200 based on SS vs Ruby SS. Ruby SS was SS + item 1028 (400) + 400 and gave an extra 200 health beyond the Ruby Crystal in addition to the extra ward in addition to the Item CDR.

POACHING: This item will be bought by all enchanters and probably all "AP damage supports". It might be bought by some AP Midlaners. Especially AP Assassins like Fizz and Leblanc who don't care about AD/Lethality. It almost definitely would be bought by some/all AP Junglers. Elise and Evelyn would definitely buy an AP+Blackout item. Ivern would definitely buy. Nunu might. Cho might but probably not (does Cho passive get +heal bonus?). Some AP Midlaners would not be interested in filling an item slot that has only 40 AP and the CDR and mana regen and heal/shield power are not stats they would be going for either.

Final thoughts... I would love to see both this item and Umbral have the +150 cost and get "Control Ward Active" option. Adding a "Control Ward Active" to both these items would also probably satisfy a lot of junglers that wish they still had tracker's knife. Especially LeeSin & Jax .