Zoe is being fixed on PBE, but she will still have a design issue

Ahristocats··5 votes·350 views

Currently on PBE: -Zoe waveclear is being nerfed -W doesn't drop teleport anymore -CD refund on E is being removed -Q damage is being reduced by like a half 45-105+0.2 from 45-165+0.4 -Passive AP ratio buff from 20% to 32.5% (nearly 50% increase) -W AP ratio buff from 40% to 60% (50% increase) -Base AD buffed by 2

That's good (kudo for doing this after 5 months balance team) Now Zoe no longer only revolves around hitting E and Q, with cd on E removed she loses a huge amount of power budget from only hitting E, and damage is being transfered from Q to passive and W this makes zoe's gameplay much more than hitting only E and Q, because now passive has fairly a huge amount of damage so Zoe players need to be careful at not overlapping the passive too much, using summoners to gain damage is also now much more requiered to deal damage because she can't deal massive damage from only Q anymore

Now we need to talk about an other problem, THE RNG

it seems like from release Zoe's W was like "hey this spell is too gimicked to be good, let's GIMICK IT EVEN MORE by adding an RNG drop mechanic that gives zoe free items and summoner spells in lane" not only the rng is shit, but her W feels so out of place, you have her E+Q+R+passive that function really well together, and then you feel like zoe's W could have been whatever the fuck you want because it doesn't matter.

In my opinion, ZOe's ult should be her W, and she needs a new ult her ult should become her W while getting a cooldown rescaling (like 20/18/16/14/12 seconds) and her W should become her ult, but less gimicked and no RNG bullshit

Zoe's W drop mechanic exists, because her W is unreliable as fuck so it was added to balance her power and not make the spell shit in most of the time (definition of gimick) so to remove it, you need to make the spell reliable, in my opinion it should become point and click like Rubick's ultimate: -20/16/12 seconds Point and click 800 range spell, steals THE LAST summoner spell/item that was used in the last 5 seconds by the target then, you're able to use the summoner spell or item for 240/300/360 seconds OR until you die after using a summoner spell/item, you gain damage and movement speed (like current W, but less damage and movement speed because you will be able to proc it more often due to the spell being reliable)

and that's it, no drop mechanic

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

finally, let me just end this by reminding people that zoe's current W should have been what made zoe unique, everyone was hyped by this character that could steal things from enemies

but it just ended up being something that you don't give a fuck about except getting free shit from minions and in my opinion, this version of ultimate i'm suggesting would fixe that because zoe would have a low cooldown summoner spell/item steal that she would revolves around

12 Comments

ModWulf Helhammer6 votes

RNG doesn’t instantly equal bad design.

Ahristocats5 votes

in zoe's case it by far equals it

you play against zoe and you're let's say Syndra you want to trade at lvl 3 but it depends on if zoe has cleanse from minions or not to remove your stun

now, meddler's reasoning is "don't agress her if she has cleanse" but that is not a good design to me unless the window of time you're unable to do anything is low (IE: gp's lifetime on barrels being reduced)

but even if you nerf the time where she can use her summoner spells/items from minoins, then what the fuck is this spell good for? literally a pile of gimcked shit that is 5% of zoe's gameplay

zoe's identity SHOULD be her W, but currently holds no impact or holds most of its impact from the drop mechanic that is boring

yoshi27901 votes

But her W lacks counterplay, you don't know what spell she will get until she kills the minion... And the difference between a cleanse and an ignite/barrier can mean everything in a 1v1.

Dracocrash1 votes

Heavily disagree. RNG makes the loser feel crappy if it favors the enemy. RNG makes the enemy feel crappy if it favors the user of said RNG.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

That..that isn't a reason. You could just as easily reverse that statement and it would support RNG.

RNG is bad when there's no possibility of interaction from either side, or when there's as imbalance of knowledge on one side. That's why everyone can see how much crit is built, or what dragons are spawning, and why neither Zoe or her opponent know what's in the balloon, just that it's there.

For an example of bad RNG, it would be like if you couldn't know how much crit chance the enemy ADC built, or that only the team that killed the dragon gets to know which one spawns next, or if Zoe knew what was in the balloons, or even if she was the only one who saw them.

Dracocrash1 votes

That..that isn't a reason. You could just as easily reverse that statement and it would support RNG.

That is a perfectly valid reason. I'm going to need a reason as to why it is invalid. Not sure what you mean by reversing the statement, please reverse it for me.

neither Zoe or her opponent know what's in the balloon, just that it's there.

This is bad RNG and just because zoe doesn't know whats in the balloon doesn't justify the RNG. Let's simplify this. A minion shows up with a balloon. This can either be favorable for zoe or not favorable for zoe. Now the laner has to make a choice. He can initiate a forced trade on zoe or he can ignore the balloon. If he ignores the balloon and zoe gets a favorable outcome, he loses. If he ignores the balloon and zoe gets unfavorable outcome, he wins. If the laner initiates a forced trade on zoe he forces zoe to either take free damage for a balloon or ignore the balloon and trade back causing the laner to loose the trade.

The laner has no idea if zoe will take the balloon or if its worth trading for the balloon. This creates a horrible dilemna for the laner since out of all the possible outcomes, 3 are against him and 1 is not. Zoe on the other hand, only has one bad possible outcome out of 4. That would be - if the laner decides to force a trade on her, and instead of trading back she decides to take the balloon but it results in an unfavorable outcome.

So, tell me where is the skill expression in this? There is only skill expression for zoe , the laners have practically 0 skill expression. It comes down to if the drop of the balloon is favorable for zoe or not, the laner cannot know that and therefore any decision he makes to deny or not deny the balloon is baseless and being punished or rewarded for his decision is UNFAIR.

That's why everyone can see how much crit is built, or what dragons are spawning,

The rng on dragons is not justified by the fact that both sides have equal information. Its justified by the fact that neither dragon favors either team too much. (this is riots philosophy not mine, I think the RNG on dragons is somewhat stupid and not justified, especially infernal drakes, but that's off topic.) An example would be - Air drake is valuable for split pushing, but it is also a valuable counter against split pushing. So this drake spawning does not favor a split pushing team, since if it's taken it can be used to counter them too. In zoe's case her bubbles do not have this balance, and therefore the RNG is NOT justified.

Crit is not amazing RNG either btw. Riot and the player base have expressed their concern about this. Unfortunately crit is not something that can be removed that easily.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

You don't have to force a trade to get Zoe away from the balloon. You just have to stop her from last hitting it. Which is something you should be trying to do anyway, on any minion. It's the whole point of harass in lane.

And I haven't seen it anywhere that Riot is opposed to crit.

Dracocrash1 votes

How do you stop someone from last hitting, in a even lane without trading?

P.S that's a simplified thought experiment, I wouldn't go to much into the details and go more into the logic behind it.

Unfortunately, I am unable to obtain the link right now. But i remember very clearly, riot wanted to do away with crit runes because of how RNG they were. And in the case of both dragon and crit, the RNG involves giving information to both teams, not depriving them of it.

Here is how zoe's RNG could be balanced, Zoe has to last hit the balloon, and she can pick up whatever drops from it after a solid delay of 20 seconds. Both laners now have INFORMATION and aren't relying on blind guessing to take actions.

Pika Fox1 votes

She can only get free Ws from minions, which are telegraphed to you. Punish her for trying to last hit them (if she doesnt last hit she doesnt get the item), and punish her if she goes for the item if she does.

Ahristocats1 votes

exactly where did you see me stating that it lacks of counterplay?

the only thing i said is that it's gimicked due to the RNG, the RNG itself makes the mechanic less desireable, and that zoe's entire W is completly out of her gameplay due to how shit it is compared to her passive/Q/E/R

the boards are trully amazing at times like this where they transform what you said

Pika Fox1 votes

The RNG is engaging and fun. Zoe is forced to interact with her opponent to get the item, and neither know what it will be until it pops, then Zoe has to somehow use it to her advantage and the enemy figures out what to do around it.

People see RNG and complain even though its entirely fine. Unless youre on the LCS RNG literally is the least of your problems, as you dont have the skill to worry about consistency.

Ahristocats1 votes

the RNG is not engaging and fun, nop the fact that zoe doesn't know what it has IS a problem because her entire freaking game can change by a large amount of power depending on THE GAME itself and not on your skill if you get cleanse against the right match up it totally changes everything if you get zhonya against zed it changes everything

i see RNG and complain because the zoe has a part of her kit that doesn't depend on herself, you can summon the "use it at her advantage" but she could use anything to her advantageit doesn't matter, it doesn't make the RNG suddenly acceptable, it just means the zoe was good to use something that didn't depend on her to be here

also, you still ignored the fact that the drop mechanic while can be engaging(lul) completly limits her W as a character the drop mechanic is just her to give zoe a little more power in her power budget to not make her shit) but it feels totally out of place

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