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You know why Assassins and Bruisers are "Weak" ?

Wukong Airlines··26 votes·2,342 views

The first thing you should put into consideration is "The amount of damage they deal, and how fast they deal it".

Second thing is the overall state they reached after the previous reworks of classes and items.

Riot's balance team Reworked the Assassins class because they were "hard" to deal with if ahead and had no counterplay, resulting in not taking away a lot of base damage from certain champs + putting delays on their burst combos, but they too destroyed some of their niches. Talon Was the only AD AOE assassin champ. they took a lot of base damage from his abilities, he lost [[15%]] damage enhancer on 1 target from his previous [[E]] but nobody actually is considering the fact that it's huge losing this passive, and Riot should've kept it if they were serious about making him "single target assassin".

On the otherhand, you have ADCs with more improved items [[defenses + MS + AS + AD + crit change + crit enhancement]] all can be granted in only a couple of cheaper items and can almost triple your damage with no delays and with AOE if possible [[based on the champ you choose, ex:Twitch ]].

After releasing Ornn , Every class got their items buffeditem 3386 item 3384 item 3371 item 3383 item 3380 item 3374 item 3379 item 3382 item 3373 [[Mages,Tanks,Bruisers,ADCs]] except the assassins. Doesn't this send a clear message?

and for Bruisers, why do they have to pay more to be even with Tanks or even ADCS? You need at least 3 kills in lane and above the average farming mechanics so you can be able to "Trade" with a Tank when they finish their items. and even if you reach lategame, the fact that they receive way less damage than you, can heal [[Maokai ]] or Do % damage to you on a low CD + the CC that allows their ADC to finish you is brutal.

You tell me to build a constructive thread so I send the message? There's no msg will be receive, it's a matter of favoritism.

48 Comments

ValyrianBlade15 votes

Bruisers and assassins are struggling for one reason and one reason only: supports have been over-buffed.

You can refer to items all you want, but there hasn't been a considerable change in the cost of a bruiser build's existing items, and the introduction of new expensive items like titanic hydra and steraks gage is a buff to their itemization, not a nerf (they can still choose to pursue their old builds).

The fact that a bruisers build is more expensive may still be a problem, it's just not a new one.

The new problem is that in riot's attempt to make more people play support, they've made too many strong shields (which get applied INSTANTLY! ) that Assasins can't possibly do their job against a decent support, and bruisers can't do theirs against even a garbage support.

An assassin used to win by 100-0'ing the enemy carry before they got locked down and killed themselves. Pretty hard to do that when said carry immediately gets a full extra health bar in shields before your delayed burst goes off.

A bruiser used to win by engaging the back line and killing the adc before the enemy back line killed him. This wasn't necessarily a burst kill, the bruiser had some decent survivability to last and dish out his initial burst followed by some sustained damage. Now, the support doesn't even need to shield the burst, doesn't even need to be around when the bruiser engages, just needs to show up to shield (or use redemption from long range) to heal/shield the adc before he dies.

The new strength of supports and the lack of ways to deal with shields, makes assassins and bruisers much worse at doing their jobs, while it doesn't really affect tanks all that much (or ranged poke like Jayce).

Tokogawaruf2 votes

So much this.

Needs far more upvotes

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Rather than supports, for some reason marksman have 3 barriers they can stack themselves if they want, ontop of GA.

Then add a support on that and suddenly it's not so strange that they seem so hard to kill, i would know since i actually play the build on Ashe just because it's so stupidly strong......that and i can't get away with playing Ashe using a normal build <.<

ValyrianBlade2 votes

{quoted}

Rather than supports, for some reason marksman have 3 barriers they can stack themselves if they want, ontop of GA.

Then add a support on that and suddenly it's not so strange that they seem so hard to kill, i would know since i actually play the build on Ashe just because it's so stupidly strong......that and i can't get away with playing Ashe using a normal build <.<

Summoner spell barrier (or heal), bloodthirster/ deaths dance, and what's the third?

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Relic shield, overheal, BT.

Although you´d ditch relic shield in the end, but by then you can get something that is better at that point anyhow.

And you´d even have earned more than you paid for the item, several times over depending on how many times the barrier gets broken once you´ve activated it.

But with relic shield+overheal+BT you get a shield that stacks up for 50% of your health basically permanently as long as you auto attack something every now and then.

Throw in a support on that and people will indeed wonder if the job of taking down the marksman isn't strangely difficult.

50000000000000002 votes

relic shield passive is gone now

Thefrostyviking1 votes

ah,.....been busy the last few days and neglected to read patch notes, my bad x)

AirKingNeo1 votes

Increasing Sterak's by 600 gold is a huge price spike....

Rouwhorst1 votes

Items do have an effect on this all. Most notably support items, which give gold and have better effects. But also ADC items which have been buffed or altered. Shiv, RFC, PD, GA Or bruiser items which have been nerfed. BC, GA, BotrK.

Price difference has indeed always been a thing, but perhaps this has become a greater problem.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku5 votes

Talon is better than his old self... but yeah other sh*t like tanks and adc are issues

T4underbolt2 votes

No dude he is not. His W is pitiful. You can easily dodge and recieve no DMG. His Q gap closer is barely useful as you can't auto attack right away so you can't process passive and it's easy to interrupt. I would gladly accept full talon revert even without silence.

Daddy Ants18 votes

{quoted}

No dude he is not. His W is pitiful. You can easily dodge and recieve no DMG. His Q gap closer is barely useful as you can't auto attack right away so you can't process passive and it's easy to interrupt. I would gladly accept full talon revert even without silence.

Oh no he has counterplay.

The champ is so bad!11

ChaddyFantome11 votes

{quoted}

Oh no he has counterplay.

The champ is so bad!11

As a Talon player, I echo this post. Talon is better than his old self. Only people that think otherwise simply refuse to git gud and miss the comfort of just pressing all your buttons on someone mindlessly.

General Esdeath 1 votes

I miss his old E, it was fun using it to dodge things. I feel the same about Kat, it feels good to dodge things with her E.

Thefrostyviking9 votes

Except Talon´s W still deals good damage when it does land, and if he procs passive the combo does even more damage than before.

So, mindless spam is punished and successful combo´s are rewarded, seems good?

T4underbolt1 votes

Well would seems good I fully agree if actually other champions also had to land a successfully combo and needed to set it up. Meanwhile many champs have point and click mechanics or literally spam buttons and are more effective than talon who needs to actually do something to land combo.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Which makes Talon a good and reasonable champ, and others like Ryze who don't when he is even decent, not so much.

Aside from complaining about Talon being something of a lanebully towards melee, have you ever seen anyone complain about anything related to Talon since his rework?

Automated Riven7 votes

{quoted}

No dude he is not. His W is pitiful. You can easily dodge and recieve no DMG. His Q gap closer is barely useful as you can't auto attack right away so you can't process passive and it's easy to interrupt. I would gladly accept full talon revert even without silence.

You can literally insta aa as soon as you hit the target. Wtf are you on?

Tails90161 votes

You can literally insta aa as soon as you hit the target. Wtf are you on?

The last second of Nasus wither, making his attack speed drop to 0.40

T4underbolt1 votes

With as reset on meele Q usage. If you gap close the auto is clunky as hell.

Automated Riven1 votes

{quoted}

With as reset on meele Q usage. If you gap close the auto is clunky as hell.

I am talking about the ranged Q. I play a bunch of talon when I actually play this game and I have zero problem landing an instant auto after Q.

General Esdeath 1 votes

His W actually has a bigger hitbox than it seems to.

Easy combo is W Q W return auto ignite ez pz lv 2 cheese

ChaddyFantome3 votes

Talon as the only AD AOE assassin champ. they took a lot of base damage from his abilities, he lost [[15%]] damage enhancer on 1 target from his previous [[E]] but nobody actually is considering the fact that it's huge losing this passive, and Riot should've kept it if they were serious about making him "single target assassin".

I disagree. Why? Because he has an actual passive now that deals a great amount of damage to a single (and potentially multiple) people now.

WolfyJosh3 votes

I dont think assassins and bruisers are weak right now in any means. I'm a vi/rek'sai main and let me tell you i feel like i have more damage right now then ever. The problem is i think damage overall is a little to high right now. also adc's have way to cheap of a build along with enchanter supports being really strong in team fights. The fact there is nothing in the game to lower or hinder shielding is one of the main problems. possibly make grievous wounds affect shields? along with changing all the 2600 crit items like static rfc and hurricane to 2800 i think would really balance things out.

Longtowel3 votes

A Full tank can’t 1v1 kill an Assassin. The Assassin can’t kill the tank but can almost always run away.

A ADC can almost never survive an encounter with a similarly geared assassin. Depending on the match up though, someone like Xayah or Vayne has outplay potential, but it’s not in their favour.

Bruisers come in many shapes and forms, and is more match up driven.

ADCs are pure damage, that’s their only job, to kill things, so given the opportunity, they will always succeed in killing anyone within a short amount of time. Assassins are used to prevent enemy carries from dealing damage. Tanks are more of a utility role, being a meat shield, having lots of C.C., and very limited damage. Bruisers full different roles but like the name suggests, they mostly ‘bruise’ dealing good damage but killing a target straight away is hard for them.

At least that’s how I feel about these roles. An assassin isn’t meant to try and kill the enemy tank 1v1. If you’re doing that you’re doing it wrong. The reason why ADCs get all these items and synergies is because they need it to shred through tanks and meaty bruisers. Without all this crit and so on they would be useless. Assassins on the other hand, are still equipped decently to do their job. A talon’s full combo will always instakill an ADC, unless stunned or peeled.

As for bruisers, we have many and they are all quite unique, for example, Jax and Darius do very different things, it’s hard to compare.

Although I do agree that Maokai is a bit cancerous to deal with. Still, his damage late game is quite low, and he fills the role of a disruptor in team fights. If you’re having trouble killing him in a fight, then you should probably consider finding ways to take out his team first.

vgamedude1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wrecked Wrecker,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q2W8UbBv,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-01-25T21:28:21.521+0000)

A Full tank can’t 1v1 kill an Assassin. The Assassin can’t kill the tank but can almost always run away.

A ADC can almost never survive an encounter with a similarly geared assassin. Depending on the match up though, someone like Xayah or Vayne has outplay potential, but it’s not in their favour.

Bruisers come in many shapes and forms, and is more match up driven.

ADCs are pure damage, that’s their only job, to kill things, so given the opportunity, they will always succeed in killing anyone within a short amount of time. Assassins are used to prevent enemy carries from dealing damage. Tanks are more of a utility role, being a meat shield, having lots of C.C., and very limited damage. Bruisers full different roles but like the name suggests, they mostly ‘bruise’ dealing good damage but killing a target straight away is hard for them.

At least that’s how I feel about these roles. An assassin isn’t meant to try and kill the enemy tank 1v1. If you’re doing that you’re doing it wrong. The reason why ADCs get all these items and synergies is because they need it to shred through tanks and meaty bruisers. Without all this crit and so on they would be useless. Assassins on the other hand, are still equipped decently to do their job. A talon’s full combo will always instakill an ADC, unless stunned or peeled.

As for bruisers, we have many and they are all quite unique, for example, Jax and Darius do very different things, it’s hard to compare.

Although I do agree that Maokai is a bit cancerous to deal with. Still, his damage late game is quite low, and he fills the role of a disruptor in team fights. If you’re having trouble killing him in a fight, then you should probably consider finding ways to take out his team first.

You have ADCs with utility that aren't all just damage. Kalista, varus, Ashe come to mind.

Longtowel2 votes

That’s right, they do have some utility. But their true uniqueness comes from their damage method, Kalista has the spear stack and moving attacks which she uses to kite and deal massive burst damage, Varus has his on hit based sustain damage coupled with passive procs from his abilities, and Ashe has the smooth damage output from her passive and a perma slow for kiting.

Of course they have utility, but I don’t think they are the core focus of these champs.

The utility, damage and play style are all very important, you miss any one of these you lose the core of the champion.

But if you lose the damage, and I mean the monstrous damage that ADC put out, you stop being an ADC altogether.

vgamedude1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wrecked Wrecker,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q2W8UbBv,comment-id=000a00000000,timestamp=2018-01-25T23:27:33.053+0000)

That’s right, they do have some utility. But their true uniqueness comes from their damage method, Kalista has the spear stack and moving attacks which she uses to kite and deal massive burst damage, Varus has his on hit based sustain damage coupled with passive procs from his abilities, and Ashe has the smooth damage output from her passive and a perma slow for kiting.

Of course they have utility, but I don’t think they are the core focus of these champs.

The utility, damage and play style are all very important, you miss any one of these you lose the core of the champion.

But if you lose the damage, and I mean the monstrous damage that ADC put out, you stop being an ADC altogether.

So ADCs get to have some manner of utility, sustain and the best damage in the game that's also in the most reliable form of autoing?

Longtowel2 votes

Utilities and sustain isn't something built into every ADC. Far from it. ADCs, at the end of the day, is about damage. Whether its early game damage, mid game damage or late game damage, they are always the ones who can consistently pump out high damage. Some ADCs rely heavily on sustain, like Draven, while Ashe relies on her built in Frozen Mallet. But Draven has no sustain if he has no damage. Ashe's slows aren't meaning full without the autocrits that come with it.

But I also wouldn't call ADC's damage the best, since ADCs have less burst power than many mages, and their damage is often more conditional, meaning its harder to deal damage with ADCs compared to Bruisers, who not only deals damage, but can take it as well.

ADCs can't take damage. At all. Most ADCs build no defensive items save a late game Guardian Angel. Mages have Zhonyas and Banshees to save them from instant death, ADC's dont have that. This is why I don't want to think that Bruisers are weak, because they can be very powerful still in the right hands.

vgamedude1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wrecked Wrecker,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q2W8UbBv,comment-id=000a0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-26T01:01:54.233+0000)

Utilities and sustain isn't something built into every ADC. Far from it. ADCs, at the end of the day, is about damage. Whether its early game damage, mid game damage or late game damage, they are always the ones who can consistently pump out high damage. Some ADCs rely heavily on sustain, like Draven, while Ashe relies on her built in Frozen Mallet. But Draven has no sustain if he has no damage. Ashe's slows aren't meaning full without the autocrits that come with it.

But I also wouldn't call ADC's damage the best, since ADCs have less burst power than many mages, and their damage is often more conditional, meaning its harder to deal damage with ADCs compared to Bruisers, who not only deals damage, but can take it as well.

ADCs can't take damage. At all. Most ADCs build no defensive items save a late game Guardian Angel. Mages have Zhonyas and Banshees to save them from instant death, ADC's dont have that. This is why I don't want to think that Bruisers are weak, because they can be very powerful still in the right hands.

Fleet footwork, crit scaling and taken on like all ADCs. That's not even counting life steal items (abundant) and the support helping as well.

Most mages build a zhonyas and that's it. They also don't do near the damage an adc does except in very rare cases (like azir).

Also I'm not sure what universe you live in where it's harder to deal damage with an adc (ranged auto attack with a Frontline ahead of you) than a damn melee bruiser

Longtowel2 votes

Like I said, an ADC need to be safe to do damage.

Without peel and without a front liner they can’t do damage at all no matter how fed.

Sadly, at lower elos, very often you get situations where your whole team goes to dive the enemy backline and leaves you totally defenseless.

In that sense, there are still conditions to be met for adcs to deal damage. Bruisers like Jax for example, can always dish out some damage because he simply lasts longer when faced with retaliation.

vgamedude1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Wrecked Wrecker,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q2W8UbBv,comment-id=000a000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-01-26T07:13:24.266+0000)

Like I said, an ADC need to be safe to do damage.

Without peel and without a front liner they can’t do damage at all no matter how fed.

Sadly, at lower elos, very often you get situations where your whole team goes to dive the enemy backline and leaves you totally defenseless.

In that sense, there are still conditions to be met for adcs to deal damage. Bruisers like Jax for example, can always dish out some damage because he simply lasts longer when faced with retaliation.

As someone who is lower elo I honestly think you're dead wrong. Especially considering some adcs who have escapes like ezreal or tristana.

And then in pro games where they do have a Frontline their damage is just stupid. The first skt vs kz game ezreal did literally 4 or 5 times as much damage as the mid laner did and others on the team.

Longtowel1 votes

Perhaps OCE's games are a bit different, because out here, at least in Bronze to Gold, I feel like Junglers are the most important position. The Team with the good jungler has the chance to see their ADCs become proficient while the other team gets dumpstered. Thats just me.

Kayn Akabane2 votes

bruisers and assassins

I can get behind that :]

Sahn Uzal7 votes

Did your other account get banned aswell?

Kayn Akabane2 votes

They try to silence me but they will never do it hehe

Velzard of Koz5 votes

He's way too addicted to the Fizz meme.

AS I LAY FEEDING2 votes

Assassins arent weak, but they arent suppose to kill a maokai and ornn. But right now with league of hourglass the role as a whole got a big nerf. Duskblade still good though, maybe too good

Velzard of Koz2 votes

After releasing Ornn, every class got their items buffed except the assassins. Doesn't this send a clear message?

A lot of Assasins can abuse Cleaver, so that's probably it. Funny thing is that Bruisers, Tanks and ADC (and this way Assasins) have enhanced version of their core/first-buy item, while Mages have it on item that is occasionally first-buy and one that is quite niché.

Azeranth2 votes

It's the low cost of ADC items and how fast they can't get their BF sword and Shiv, giving them STUOID stat synergy for the cost of a normal item for anyone else. It's stupid

Purgë1 votes

wtf assains are busted right now

General Esdeath 1 votes

[sg-miss-fortune]

Glasss of Water1 votes

item 3147

vgamedude1 votes

I always laugh when I see people point out how riot nerfed assassin's because of "no counterplay" meanwhile we have adc hyper carries who auto attack from range. Assassins can also build to be just as squishy as adcs.

Imo assassin's and bruisers aren't ideal because bot lane is SO strong.

Evil Yasuo1 votes

Good thread like always Cloud.

Krytoric1 votes

assassins are fine tho

General Esdeath 1 votes

Again, Riot removing some skill from a champ. I remember LONG AGO in the day of Gnar being new, I played Talon a lot, and I LOVED dodging skill shots with his E.

My favorite was a J4 ganking me, and as he ulted, I E'd him, and we swapped places, and I ran away while he stood there in his ult, perplexed.

Now it's just a spammable ability to make him super mobile and annoying. I get it's for roaming, but the counter to assassins is warding, if you let him avoid wards, what's the counterplay? His poor damage?

LordGeovanni1 votes

Bruisers and Tanks are bad Not assassins. Assassins are struggling but they are not bad. All of these have a core problem in that ranged carries do too much damage in small windows of time while the melee champions have their damage gated by delays and for tanks and bruisers cooldowns. Another reason Tanks and Bruisers are bad is because defenses are constantly being nerfed so the majority of tanks and bruisers are horrible to play and the only tanks that are playable are the ones that have low cooldown displacement / stuns because they arent picked because they are tanks they are picked because they are cc bots. Things like Shields healing and cc are supposed to counter assassins. But its really bad when the champions assassins are targeting have easily 2300-2600 hp without any hp items and can still build hp items with damage on it, armor items with damage on it, magic resist items with damage on it and can pop them in 1 rotation / 1.8 seconds.

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