The Sona nerfs are over the top and need to be scaled back

only zhule··10 votes·616 views

Let's address the first big issue. This change does not really effect late game Sona. You know the point in the game where Sona actually gets good. It hurts early game Sona, the point in the game where she is weakest and honestly needed buffs if anything. Before this change Sona had a damage output of 60 damage + 80% scaling (assuming you landed both parts of your spell) for a cost of 45 mana. After the change she now has an output of 50 + 90% scaling (assuming both parts hit) for a cost of 60 mana. Since Sona is not going to have a metric ton of AP early, the scaling is more or less unimportant. As it stands Sona now has a below 1:1 ratio of mana to damage dealt (i think the only champion in the game with such a metric).

Sona's early game has always been bad. Your damage output of spells is low, and only looks good because more half decent Sona players are landing AA + Q +AA reset + Passive. An issue that could be fixed if Riot simply removed auto attack resets... but that would ruin the "unique play styles" of so many other champions. Your healing is expensive and does very very little to help your allies or yourself. You have no way to engage or disengage fights, and your movement speed ability is garbage. If we look late game, you notice that Sona is now doing a wopping 20< less damage. She still hits you like a truck, because she is still hitting you with a 5 in 1 part attack.

There are so many easy ways to deal with this issue that aren't ham fisted and crippling for Sona's early game. Something as simple as bumping the casting cost up by 5, rather then 15, and having it go up another 5 at rank 3 and finish at +15 at rank 9. BOOM keeps the late game mana pressure but doesn't make you spend 20%+ of your pool every time you poke in the early game.

If you want to decrease Sona's early game poke, that is fine. You want to reduce her late game damage, you need to give her something else she can do that isn't being a one and done ultimate caster. But over all you need to NOT make her already weak early game (do to bad utility numbers and mana constraints) worse by upping the casting cost of a spell she is EXPECTED to cast 3-5 times a minute by 30%+

15 Comments

Final Spark Lux3 votes

Pretty sure the multi billion dollar company knows what they're doing with their game. Nothing is set in stone, and the best way for them to collect data is for them to push it to live and see how it fares. Is why they released it in its current state. Now we wait and see how it goes.

Redcadaver1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Final Spark Lux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pudk7Xzq,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-07T01:05:24.768+0000)

Pretty sure the multi billion dollar company knows what they're doing with their game. Nothing is set in stone, and the best way for them to collect data is for them to push it to live and see how it fares. Is why they released it in its current state. Now we wait and see how it goes.

If that is the case then what is the point of the PTR at all?

Final Spark Lux1 votes

To see the general performance of the change. They don't have a sample size nearly as large as live servers do. They can collect some data from the PBE, but pushing it through to live gives them significantly larger numbers to work with, making the data more accurate.

Daedric Etwahl2 votes

I dunno. The balance team has an insanely horrible track record of putting a champion completely in the ground or in an otherwise shitty state while completely ignoring the input of said champion's players.

These nerfs are far too much for Sona's early game, it feels almost unplayable now, you run out of oom far too quickly, and you can't even properly get gold because your Q drains your mana too.

And it's only going to get worse for her because riot has decided that the entirety of the Forbidden Idol lineup, and the runes set bonuses, need to be nerfed too. I understand that Sona needs to give up early power for that lategame power fantasy, but enough is enough.

Final Spark Lux3 votes

Getting your main nerfed is the worst feeling, but obviously they feel like she's to strong atm based on the numbers they're seeing. It isn't as if they're doing this just to piss off anyone who plays Sona.

As for their horrible track record, yes. Some champions are made weak at times and just left like that, but it isn't because they don't care or don't listen. The game consists of what, 134 champions, 60 runes, who knows how many items, and who really knows how many different combinations of everything? All of this amounts to -A TON- to try and balance around. That isn't even all of it. A shift in the meta can drastically change how certain champions perform, and make champions that were OP a week ago seem horrible today.

There are simply too many variables, and not enough time for then to fix everything every patch. All there is to it. Very seldom has a champion ever been nerfed so hard it quite literally becomes unplayable. If someone mains something, and likes playing it enough, they'll learn to adapt to the changes.

In this case, I suggest not spamming your Q every second is up. Sometimes less is more. The mana you safe from not poking them for a few seconds could make the difference if a skirmish breaks out.

Daedric Etwahl1 votes

I don't know, I still firmly believe that the mana nerf was completely unwarranted and way too much. The damage nerf was enough. Like I just can't keep up anymore, even with all my runes and items.

Erockandroll1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Daedric Etwahl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pudk7Xzq,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2017-12-07T02:32:33.617+0000)

I don't know, I still firmly believe that the mana nerf was completely unwarranted and way too much. The damage nerf was enough. Like I just can't keep up anymore, even with all my runes and items.

As a Sona main, I feel a little conflicted on the matter, mainly because of my rune selection.

For the most part, combining mana flow band, Biscuit delivery, every mana item pilfered from Kleptomancy, and ancient coin, meant almost never having mana issues. With that in mind, I could see a point where Sona isn't properly mana gated, but this makes it feel like she's being balanced around a high mana rune set. (Which I thought Riot was trying to avoid.)

Daedric Etwahl1 votes

Yeah, it's even worse for me because I don't take Klepto (I really dislike the aggressive playstyle, and moreso with the nerf to it it looks even less desirable) and I HATE taking Ancient Coin for many reasons, so I'm left with Manaflow, Biscuits, and building Tear immediately after Frostfang. Once the Tear gets a bit of stacks (about 80 before) mana issues basically went away. Before then lane was manageable. I still.went oom if I wasnt careful, but I was able.to get through alright.

Now that time.before Tear takes off is abaolute hell, and if you and or your adc is getting poked a lot, god help you because you dont get to have mana.

only zhule1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Final Spark Lux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pudk7Xzq,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2017-12-07T02:18:21.879+0000)

Getting your main nerfed is the worst feeling, but obviously they feel like she's to strong atm based on the numbers they're seeing. It isn't as if they're doing this just to piss off anyone who plays Sona.

As for their horrible track record, yes. Some champions are made weak at times and just left like that, but it isn't because they don't care or don't listen. The game consists of what, 134 champions, 60 runes, who knows how many items, and who really knows how many different combinations of everything? All of this amounts to -A TON- to try and balance around. That isn't even all of it. A shift in the meta can drastically change how certain champions perform, and make champions that were OP a week ago seem horrible today.

There are simply too many variables, and not enough time for then to fix everything every patch. All there is to it. Very seldom has a champion ever been nerfed so hard it quite literally becomes unplayable. If someone mains something, and likes playing it enough, they'll learn to adapt to the changes.

In this case, I suggest not spamming your Q every second is up. Sometimes less is more. The mana you safe from not poking them for a few seconds could make the difference if a skirmish breaks out.

I want to break down your last two parts. First just because one “CAN” adapt to a change does not mean one should have to. It’s pretty clear that bumping the cost of a characters bread and butter offensive spell by 30+% is not the right idea. Even more so for a champion with a statistically bad early game.

Second if I am not poking the enemy team often and hard, what is the expected thing for Sona to do to help her ally pressure the lane? Your heal won’t save anyone early game nor do you have a stun or disengage tool to prevent a gank.

Final Spark Lux3 votes

Sitting here complaining on boards the day the change was released isn't going to change the fact that the change went through. Regardless if you think her Q should or shouldn't have been changed, Riot felt it was necessary. You gotta remember she isn't supposed to be a godly poke support, or a healer like soraka. Her poke coupled with everything else in her kit was just proving to be too oppressive, which is why they changed it.

I never said stop poking completely, I suggested poking slightly less. Holding on to Q for a few seconds compared to spamming it the second it's up can make a huge difference in the amount of mana you save. Building a mana item can also be a big help. If you know you're gonna be building something with it, pick up a mana crystal early and just leave it til you feel like upgrading it. Regardless who you're playing, spamming endlessly is inevitably going to make you run out of mana.

Also, I don't think you give sona enough credit. While her heal might not be as bursty as others, it does have 2 components to it; the heal, and the shield (not to mention it does this to you AND someone else). I can't tell you how many times I've been able to save someone with her heal. As for avoiding ganks, wards go a long way to preventing them from ever happening assuming you watch your map. If you do happen to get caught off guard, you have a slow on your powerchord and a stun for an ult.

Same story as before, Sona isn't supposed to have the best of everything specifically because she has a lot. There are gonna be times where you just can't get away. Sona's best lines of defense are vision manipulation, map awareness, and excellent positioning. You shouldn't be playing her with the intention of completely destroying your lane and anyone who comes to it; that's never what she was meant to be.

only zhule1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Final Spark Lux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pudk7Xzq,comment-id=00010001000000010000,timestamp=2017-12-07T03:49:14.466+0000)

Sitting here complaining on boards the day the change was released isn't going to change the fact that the change went through. Regardless if you think her Q should or shouldn't have been changed, Riot felt it was necessary. You gotta remember she isn't supposed to be a godly poke support, or a healer like soraka. Her poke coupled with everything else in her kit was just proving to be too oppressive, which is why they changed it.

I never said stop poking completely, I suggested poking slightly less. Holding on to Q for a few seconds compared to spamming it the second it's up can make a huge difference in the amount of mana you save. Building a mana item can also be a big help. If you know you're gonna be building something with it, pick up a mana crystal early and just leave it til you feel like upgrading it. Regardless who you're playing, spamming endlessly is inevitably going to make you run out of mana.

Also, I don't think you give sona enough credit. While her heal might not be as bursty as others, it does have 2 components to it; the heal, and the shield (not to mention it does this to you AND someone else). I can't tell you how many times I've been able to save someone with her heal. As for avoiding ganks, wards go a long way to preventing them from ever happening assuming you watch your map. If you do happen to get caught off guard, you have a slow on your powerchord and a stun for an ult.

Same story as before, Sona isn't supposed to have the best of everything specifically because she has a lot. There are gonna be times where you just can't get away. Sona's best lines of defense are vision manipulation, map awareness, and excellent positioning. You shouldn't be playing her with the intention of completely destroying your lane and anyone who comes to it; that's never what she was meant to be.

Let’s break down your mountain of BS.

The expectation is not that complaining will stop or magically revert the changes right off. It’s simply a means to express that the idea to change her the way they did was poorly received.

As for what Sona is “suppose to be” that is a big question. She is kind of a jack of all trades but is bad at them till she gets a bunch of CDR. The one exception was her poke.

I suppose Sona could go the coin item line, since as is stands now you can’t poke very much to get money off spell theif. And no shit you will run omm if all you do is spam. That was true for everyone and wouldn’t be false even if they hadn’t made her Q more expensive.

Yes her W heals and shield. Sadly it’s a very low number for both, on a 10 second base cool down, and costs a fortune so using it to top off damaged allies isn’t a choice in the early game. A slow doesn’t do very much against most champions who have gap closers, high burst damage, and/or a stun. That ult stun doesn’t do shit for you in the early game, BECAUSE YOU DONT FUCKING HAVE IT!

Sona is a jack of all trades. But you don’t get the parts you need to pull it off till the mid to late game. Her early game is a mess and that is why a 30% cost increase to her main spell at low levels is too much.

Your argument is about her mid to late game. Mine is about her early game. These are similar but different topics. And it saddens me that you can’t see that

Final Spark Lux3 votes

Really? It saddens you? You know this is a game right? I'm sad for you if someone elses opinion of said game makes you sad. Hf complaining though. I'll be spending my time enjoying the game instead of trying to explain to you why it was done and how to still enjoy playing her.

sheldonbunny1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Final Spark Lux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pudk7Xzq,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-12-07T01:05:24.768+0000)

Pretty sure the multi billion dollar company knows what they're doing with their game.

Except for the fact they have in the past declared they've made mistakes that the players knew all along. Kogmaw revert, dynamic queue...

Final Spark Lux1 votes

Maybe you missed the part where I explained why they do these things.

Death by Glamour1 votes

Idky they are hitting the heal.

Its a non factor to lane sona.

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