reworks are bad and 90% of them have failed at either giving a champion a distinct identity or making them "healthier" for the game (a hard metric to judge by because standards are arbitrary and change constantly)
leave volibear alone
The Ecdysiast10 votesBut outdated champions are bad 100% of the time, so technically 100% of reworks have been improvements.
Moody P4 votesstandards are arbitrary and change constantly
sure, when riot trashes half of their reworks into dumpster for a year because anything less leaves them pick ban at least they're not outdated
The Ecdysiast8 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pj82Oz95,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-02-15T12:20:55.228+0000)
sure, when riot trashes half of their reworks into dumpster for a year because anything less leaves them pick ban at least they're not outdated
That's not exactly true. They just keep making the elementary schooler mistake of changing more than one variable at once in their experiments.
Did Aatrox and Akali need nerfs? Of course. Is it right to nerf two aspects at once? No, that's just bad science.
For Aatrox, the problem was his sustain so hitting just his sustain would've been fine. For Akali, the problem was her true stealth, so hitting her heal wasn't the right idea.
Ryze is a solid champion that rewards picking the right combo for the situation, but his ultimate doesn't belong in the game.
But old Aatrox's design meant he could only possibly be the very worst AA fighter or the very best, with no in-between. Either he had the healing to out-sustain any opponent in lane and was only allowed that, or as we saw with the removal of his W cost and the introduction of Conqueror, he was strictly a stat-checker.
Old Akali was either way too easy because everything she did was targeted/point blank, meaning she was either too strong with the right items or forced to be barely functional with the wrong ones.
And the same problem-- being either strictly overpowered or strictly underpowered-- was present with the old Ryze as well.
What the reworks did was create kits that can be adjusted more easily-- except in Ryze's case, where his strength is only possible to abuse by the top ~5% of players because it's team-oriented, nothing to do with the champion himself.
Many outdated kits are those that are forced to trade strength for ease of play, and become overpowered across all skill levels when they're given too much strength. It's always better to have a champion that can be adjusted than one for whom small changes result in too much or too little power.
Moody P3 votesthe problem with Aatrox is that his ridiculous anti synergy with his passive and R and the rest of his kit means that he only works with inflated numbers and a functioning team (a bad trait to have for soloQ). pre rework he was fine as far as fine can be but IMO he had an identity crisis of being a skirmisher who couldn't stick to you at all which meant his numbers needed to be inflated, which meant goofy healing if he pops off.
but that doesn't mean "just scrap everything" because Aatrox had a very distinct identity as a fast hitting carry who could fight 1 v 3 and come out on top. you take that idea and you make it better; Aatrox had a handful of elements that would have translated fantastically into a Riven-like caster/clicker (his stance changing and range bonus on R for kiting) and these concepts were abandoned for a Q-bot. I will not regard this change as a positive one in any way.
Akali was passable but I think Riot underestimated the disruption she has now when they kept her healing. But now she has the issue of not being able to carry on her own when she was quite infamous before for doing just that. She's easily the best assassin design by virtue of being good for something beyond not letting other people play the game but needs to be numbers tuned more. One of maybe... 3 VGUs I think positively of.
The Ecdysiast7 votesThe claim that old Aatrox was fine as fine can be is just not right. Like I said, he was the exact opposite of fine. If a champion's kit is such that they're either severely overpowered or severely underpowered with no in between, it's a problem. Even in cases like Darius for whom it's down to pick order instead of balance changes.
That's exactly the problem present with your claim that he could 1v3. That's severely overpowered. And when he couldn't, he couldn't even 1v1. "Stance changing" is an extremely broad idea, so saying it could've remained isn't really saying anything. Because it couldn't possibly have stayed in the state it was in. It doesn't matter if you personally didn't like the change. Reworks aren't for the people who like the old champion's unhealthy kit. They're for expanding the champion's playerbase.
VolatileAkali1 votesEasy doesn't mean strong, why was Annie never reworked? Akali didn't need a stupid rework like this one that ruined her. I bet they can't fix her now, she needs huge mechanical changes to her kit, you don't need to take my word for it, you just need to play the champ for a while and once you understand her you'll know that she needs it.
VolatileAkali3 votesNope, old Akali is still better than new Akali. Fite me.
The Ecdysiast2 votesNope, old Akali is still better than new Akali. Fite me.
Easier, sure. And that was the problem. She was too easy to justify the same damage as a more mechanically difficult assassin. So they had to either let her be too strong or force her to be too weak. Neither of which is a good option.
VolatileAkali1 votesShe wasn't even that strong, are you pulling stats out of your ass? Mechanically difficult assassins had more out play potential and better escape, Akali only had Shroud as her non point and click escape and flash. She was only viable before the rework, she wasn't weak or strong.
The Ecdysiast1 votesShe wasn't even that strong, are you pulling stats out of your ass? Mechanically difficult assassins had more out play potential and better escape, Akali only had Shroud as her non point and click escape and flash. She was only viable before the rework, she wasn't weak or strong.
... Exactly? That's what I was saying. She could only be any good if they made her overpowered, because her kit wasn't versatile enough to handle changes other than damage buffs.
VolatileAkali1 votesNo, she didn't need to be overpowered. She was decent the whole time before the rework, she was fun to play, huge solo carry potential and you can make cool plays like any other assassins.
She only needed an ezreal style rework not more or less.
The Ecdysiast1 votesNo, she didn't need to be overpowered. She was decent the whole time before the rework, she was fun to play, huge solo carry potential and you can make cool plays like any other assassins.
She only needed an ezreal style rework not more or less.
That's... not true at all. For a while she was building tank items because she was dogshit with intended items.
An "ezreal style" rewould would be a change to just one ability, but she needed changes to three.
VolatileAkali1 votesHow long was that. Hmm, 3 years ago? Dude you can't build full tanky + GB with Akali before the rework. You can mostly go one tank item with HP + AP items, and you still can't completely one shot enemies, you would sometimes only delete 70% of their hp, but most of the time they'd escape IMMEDIATELY.
She literally needed just a new ability to her E, and maybe some number tweaks over her other abilities, but nothing more or less.
LordGeovanni1 votesGalio Rework is only a popularity Improvement because no one played galio because he intentionally had horrible base stats. same with Yorick Sejuani and Sion none of them are actually better gameplay wise. Except Sion maybe if they didnt take way his ability to continously use his shield. and take away its damage when it was broken if we ignore how much power the siphned out of his shield and that his putting the 'zombie aspect' of his kit on his passive made his passive useless then yeah his new kit is better even if it changed most of his game play and made him super clunky because riot and idiots in the community believe that no one should have a clunky kit but tanks and fighters.
Snowbrand2 votesGalio Rework is only a popularity Improvement because no one played galio because he intentionally had horrible base stats. same with Yorick Sejuani and Sion none of them are actually better gameplay wise. Except Sion maybe if they didnt take way his ability to continously use his shield. and take away its damage when it was broken if we ignore how much power the siphned out of his shield and that his putting the 'zombie aspect' of his kit on his passive made his passive useless then yeah his new kit is better even if it changed most of his game play and made him super clunky because riot and idiots in the community believe that no one should have a clunky kit but tanks and fighters.
Yorick was super cancer before his rework and was probably the most needed rework of any champion ever. Old Sejuani was a big problem, because her only ability was her 5 man ult stun. She had very little skill expression back then and pro teams only picked her because one ult was all they needed. She was very stat-checky.
The Ecdysiast2 votesGalio Rework is only a popularity Improvement because no one played galio because he intentionally had horrible base stats. same with Yorick Sejuani and Sion none of them are actually better gameplay wise. Except Sion maybe if they didnt take way his ability to continously use his shield. and take away its damage when it was broken if we ignore how much power the siphned out of his shield and that his putting the 'zombie aspect' of his kit on his passive made his passive useless then yeah his new kit is better even if it changed most of his game play and made him super clunky because riot and idiots in the community believe that no one should have a clunky kit but tanks and fighters.
You have no grounds to say they're not better gameplay-wise. The proof they are better is in the increase in popularity.
I'd say Sejuani, Maokai, and Zac are outliers because they weren't given the reworks they should've gotten. All they got were changes intended to weaken the champions overall, along with the only classwide item update that was in its entirety intended as a nerf.
GreenKnight6 votesI'm not getting baited this time
Febos3 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pj82Oz95,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-02-15T11:41:26.836+0000)
leave volibear alone
Don't worry, his time will come. He's on the chopping block. Besides, he really needs an update.
Moody P1 votesno
Febos1 votesIt will happen though. He's on the most recent list and was on the one before too.
Snowbrand3 votesI think you ment "90 % of them have succeed"^^
Moody P2 votesno
Snowbrand3 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pj82Oz95,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-02-15T14:25:18.639+0000)
no
: Honestly one of the best VGUs in the game, kept the champions identity intact and core gameplay but at the same time improved it a lot. The only bad thing was maybe that they pretty much kept the same ult.
: Compared to the old akali is much better now, visually and gameplay isn't one-dimensional or stat-checky anymore. She was too strong at the start, but after the Zoe treatment I think she will turn out good. Changing her untargetability under tower was the only thing she needed. Other then that, her gameplay improved a lot.
: Compared to the old aatroxx, was improved. His kit works well togheter now and will probably turn out good after the nerfs and balance.
: She was overloaded at the start, but the new design was better. She is a bit odd. She have both good and bad parts and it feels like she is still getting changes to get her where she is supposed to be. But improvment over old irelia still.
: One of my favourite updates. Compare this to the old Swain and it's like night and day. Old Swain was boring to play and play against. New Swain is fun to play and feels fair to play aginst usually.
: Well, gameplay wise she turned out good but sometimes it feels like she is lacking somwhow. Maybe because stealth is hard to balance around even after the stealth nerfs. Her kit is nicer now tho.
: Great VGU.
: Was sceptical at first, but think it turned out great.
: Much better then old yorick.
LordGeovanni1 votesYou always tell people who didnt play the champions before the reworks they always think that the reworks are so revolutionary.
Snowbrand1 votesYou always tell people who didnt play the champions before the reworks they always think that the reworks are so revolutionary.
Well, I did play quiet a few games on old nunu, mained old akali (which I admit miss sometimes), I played some games on old Irelia, just a couple on Swain, quiet a few on Evelynn, not much ww tho and quiet a few games on Urgot. And the only one so far that I miss sometimes is Akali, and she was nice but I still think she needed the rework and that that rework was mostly good too.
VolatileAkali1 votesYou make me laugh, Akali will never be fixed. She needs huge changes to her overall.
Snowbrand1 votesYou make me laugh, Akali will never be fixed. She needs huge changes to her overall.
Yea, they said that about Zoe too, but look at her now
VolatileAkali1 votesZoe got buffed almost immediately, Akali didn't.
Snowbrand1 votesZoe got buffed almost immediately, Akali didn't.
It haven't even been a patch yet since her nerfs
VolatileAkali1 votesThey are not buffing her at 9.4, Zoe did.
Snowbrand1 votesThey are not buffing her at 9.4, Zoe did.
They will probably buff her in the one or two next patches, it's not that big of a deal.
VolatileAkali1 votesIt is, your too blind to see it.
Ravenhale2 votesBeware the Bear.
The Curse of the Ursa.
LordGeovanni2 votesVolibear doesnt need a rework Melee's need a difference in base stats that make them stronger for not having as much range as ranged champions.
General Matty1 votesi think he deserves at least an Ezreal scale rework.
Moody P3 votesVolibear isn't popular enough to get off so easily and he's a victim of the "stat check" meme that says right clicking is only OK if you're a marksmen
DuskDaUmbreon7 votesYes, right clicking is okay when your right clicking needs to be accompanied by actually aiming abilities that are important.
Volibear doesn't have a single thing in his kit that's dodgeable. No, his roar does not count, any more than Jax's E counts. There's not a single thing in his kit you can aim. Hell, the only thing vaguely approaching a combo in his kit is flip>roar, which is the most obvious thing in the game.
If there were marksmen that didn't have to play around an incredibly shitty early game or aiming abilities, I'd agree with you. Buuuuut every single one has some drawback that isn't "Just run faster lmao"
Moody P4 votesVolibear is easily kited which is a far bigger weakness than the possibility that you won't land your skillshots
DuskDaUmbreon4 votesEase or difficulty is irrelevant here.
The point is "The only counterplay is to run faster or have higher damage". It doesn't matter how easy it is to outrun him. He could have a base MS of 2 and it would be completely and utterly irrelevant to this discussion. I never said "Volibear is easy to kite", nor did I say "Volibear is hard to kite". I said "Volibear is a statcheck because his ONLY weakness is being kited or just having higher damage and durability".
Unless you can show to me he has another weakness, he remains a statcheck.
LordGeovanni1 votesGood thing Volibear has no damage so even if you cant out run him you can just out run him when he fails to kill you in an instant.
The Ecdysiast1 votesEase or difficulty is irrelevant here.
The point is "The only counterplay is to run faster or have higher damage". It doesn't matter how easy it is to outrun him. He could have a base MS of 2 and it would be completely and utterly irrelevant to this discussion. I never said "Volibear is easy to kite", nor did I say "Volibear is hard to kite". I said "Volibear is a statcheck because his ONLY weakness is being kited or just having higher damage and durability".
Unless you can show to me he has another weakness, he remains a statcheck.
Eeexactly. Most juggernaut mains just repeat over and over that having kiting as your only weakness is perfectly fine when that's just not true.
Critmaster Garen2 votes[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pj82Oz95,comment-id=000300000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-02-16T04:59:24.168+0000)
Eeexactly. Most juggernaut mains just repeat over and over that having kiting as your only weakness is perfectly fine when that's just not true.
most juggernauts dont have just kiting as their only weakness. they have the weaknesses directly built into their kits.
aatrox crit zones are possible to be dodged by his opponent. if he doesnt hit them, he deals no damage. you can walk out of his w even after he hit the skillshot.
darius q can be dodged and youre denying him an extra stack in his first rotation, which is huge in a trade, and allows you to disengage on 3 stacks after a trade.
illaoi is incredibly dependent on her e and the ability to hit her tentacles, which again. you can dodge and remove from walls.
garen has cooldown windows in which he barely poses a threat to his opponent, his passive is disabled in combat, and he has literally no ability that extends past his auto attack range.
kiting is just an additional generalistic weakness that all juggernauts have, but in addition to that their main damage steroids are attached to mechanics that can be outplayed by their opponent.
marksmen on the other hand dont tend to have such weaknesses built into their kits. their only weakness are literally certain champion picks, but their kits themselves dont tend to offer counterplay.
like how does 
ever approach a fight with 
her kit offers literally no mechanics that the udyr can possibly outplay. her q is a button press steroid, her w is unrestrictive mobility, her e is point and click ability that barely contributes to her damage overall, and her ult is an unfailable point and click disengage.
you can go through the majority of the marksmen picks, and most of them dont offer any counterplay in their kits whatsoever.
while juggernauts and a lot of melee carries in general, like certain skirmishers are designed around mechanics with counterplay, most marksmen are just raw stat check champions who have their main steroids available on button presses. either you play a champion who can reliably jump on them and delete them, or your only way to beat them is to out stat them.
thats honestly just piss poor design.
Moody P1 votesyou're wasting your time arguing with this guy
The Ecdysiast2 votes"while juggernauts and a lot of melee carries in general, like certain skirmishers are designed around mechanics with counterplay, most marksmen are just raw stat check champions who have their main steroids available on button presses. either you play a champion who can reliably jump on them and delete them, or your only way to beat them is to out stat them."
No no, you can't just throw juggernauts in there as if they fit with your point. They don't. You like them, because they're designed to be easier, but they don't fit into the point you're trying to make. They haven't been reworked to fit into that yet.
BigFBear2 votesAnd why is that bad? Why does everyone need dodgeable skillshot? What is bad of having at least SOME straight forward "easy" champs? Yi has also no skillshot, Garen has no Skillshots... there are many melees who have no Skillshots.
Iota Theta1 votesAnd why is that bad? Why does everyone need dodgeable skillshot? What is bad of having at least SOME straight forward "easy" champs? Yi has also no skillshot, Garen has no Skillshots... there are many melees who have no Skillshots.
Just want to point out that, at least in your two named examples, Yi is complained about quite a bit except the upper echelons of the community, in part because he is a right click champ that can’t be escaped unless your team has hard CC and can blow him up. Garen, i don’t see many complaints for, but he can be played around a bit with his E, which is core for him, since it deals less damage when hitting multiple targets. It might not necessarily be “no skillshots is a bad design”, but possibly implementation of those 0 skillshot abilities.
LordGeovanni1 votesIf dodgeable skill shots were an issue Skillshots like Arhi Q and Ezreal W and Q wouldnt exist those arent really dodgeable because they are so fast by rely on the person playing those champs to miss their skill shot. Their skill shots are simply too fast and cast too smoothly to dodge. but hurr durr not a skill shot no skill should have stood back 600+ range with no way to retaliate on you.
DuskDaUmbreon2 votesThe problem is that it makes them too strong in low tier, so they can't be viable anywhere else.
If there's not a really weak early to abuse, and there's no way to do anything against their abilities, that leaves them without substantial counterplay.
I'm 99% sure every Volibear player would rather him have a skillshot if it meant that you wouldn't lose to everyone with a higher base MS.
