I don't like Cassiopeia's state ON PBE

Kowe The Ewok·Dec 3, 2014·17 votes·2,811 views

This is not about the Cassiopeia on live. It's mainly baout the poison amplification on her E.

By this change 3 thing happened:

More power got shifted into her E
The range on her other abilities is meaningless since they don't deal noticeable damage on their own, essentially making her one of the shortest range casters ingame
This is not directly Cassiopeia related, but about non-PBE players who tend to theorycraft and forget that at the time the amplification is applied your first, maybe even your 2nd, DoT tick already procced. Thus only your last hit gets amplified. It's more often a 6.67% damage bonus than it is a 20% bonus upon trades in lane.

This gimmik is definitely not the solution to Cassiopeia's problem.

30 Comments

0fficerJennyDec 3, 201412 votes

I agree with this wholeheartedly. The rework has been a failure and riot doesn't want to revert it so now its time to try something completely different. All these little are not helping her they are just making her less accessible then she was before and annoying anyone who used to play her.

ScampyDec 3, 201412 votes

My biggest fear for this change is that when this stuff goes live, a good number of Cass players will settle for it if she's decently strong. Then Stashu will say "Oh well I guess it all worked out, see ya nerds LOL" and never address how he's destroyed Cass's identity because he likes button mashing more than mechanical skill.

AbyssphereDec 3, 201410 votes

I don't know why this thread has been downvoted. It seems the non-Cass players are getting annoyed by the constant threads but I wish they wouldn't. Riot needs to see the dissatisfaction.

Kowe The EwokDec 3, 20147 votes

I assume their are. In addition to the other trolls who come to the boards to downvote everything on a page once for a chuckel :/

But I'm glad to see that at least people who truely play her agree.

Neo CyrusDec 3, 20145 votes

I don't like the fact that they nerfed her some more before they even released it. Yes they nerfed the new poison amp gimmick. All again based on the same derps and goofs who claimed the 30% win rate Cass was broken OP. Good job again Stashu and co.

How many months has it been? Here we are at the end of the year and the upcoming changes are still a slap in the face (yes I know you Rito employees love to laugh at that term while sipping your coffee).

questirDec 3, 20145 votes

Most people don't but for some reason Rito is pushing this rework

SaevumDec 3, 20145 votes

So, long story short... we still start Q, but with with 0 seriousness? Thats what you're saying?

So problems still persist:

Q does not give enough damage to farm properly nor at least defend ourselves nor poking cause even if hit, it doesn't matter?
At lvl 2 [E], we still need to use E on the farm due to lack of Q's non-farm potential (nor wave clearing) and still worrying abut being out of juice due to a possible lvl 2 duel due to the [E] needed to be used on farming to get the mana refund?
And even if we are able to stay in lane (if not being farm denied) and miraculously hit lvl 3, does W now do something? or the farm and enemy champion aswell can still bath there without anything to worry about?

QuephaDec 3, 20143 votes

the harass pattern in lane is QEE and then a follow-up Q. that means that cassiopeia can still be dangerous in the early game if the enemy lets her keep up her sustained damage without having to wait for her scaling to kick in.

Kowe The EwokDec 3, 20145 votes

This makes her range 700. Normal caster range is 900+. Ziggs and Xerath even reach 1400. Zed can attack from 2150 (W R Q).

QuephaDec 3, 20144 votes

This makes her range 700. Normal caster range is 900+. Ziggs and Xerath even reach 1400. Zed can attack from 2150 (W R Q).

old cass had to get in melee range to maximize her damage so i don't know what you're complaining about.

Kowe The EwokDec 3, 20145 votes

What? Did you even play old Cass?

RiotRiot King CobraDec 3, 20142 votes

He's right. To get the maximize damage out of old Cass you literally had to move to point-blank melee range so that your Twin Fangs reset at a flat .5 seconds. New Cass, in a 1v1 situation, out damages old Cass at literally every point in the game if you are not in melee range because of how the Twin Fang reset changed.

QuephaDec 4, 20142 votes

What? Did you even play old Cass?

it's true. twin fang reset when it connected with the target, so getting closer to the enemy increased your dps by up to something like 25%

Auz the RipperDec 3, 20145 votes

Try that against Malzahar See What happens

QuephaDec 3, 20141 votes

Try that against Malzahar See What happens

if you dodge his Q, you win the trade, if he hits you with it you'll probably lose. if we're talking post 6 then you'd be a moron to fight malzahar solo just like every other champion in the game.

OrbvDec 3, 20145 votes

If he gets hit by poison it's pretty obvious what Cass' Twin Fang range is. Missing the silence is actually really hard to do at that point.

QuephaDec 3, 20141 votes

If he gets hit by poison it's pretty obvious what Cass' Twin Fang range is. Missing the silence is actually really hard to do at that point.

do you know what malzahar's Q skillshot looks like? it's one of the skillshots in the game that doesn't get easier to hit at short ranges, and cassiopeia's MS boost from landing a Q will make it easier to dodge.

OrbvDec 3, 20146 votes

I lane Malzahar a decent amount, at least 10 times a month. You can get hit by the walls or the beams. And you can place it vertically, horizontally, and diagonally. Because an animation time of .45 seconds exists, unless Cass is in your face and has the option of going past you or backing up, she will lose valuable time evading it. She won't get off more than 1 Twin Fang. Meanwhile it can be cast while moving, if Cass gets off a single Fang she is temporarily rooted.

I've been using Cass in ranked since season 2, and even now I still have issues evading a good Malz.

RiotRiot King CobraDec 3, 20142 votes

Cassio dumpsters Malzahar in lane even post rework. She's so incredibly good at picking fights with him and beating him down early game (even now). Furthermore, unless she's silenced by him (Which is INSANELY easy to dodge with the move speed from Q because of how telegraphed the move is) she can stop his ult by using her own ult to stun him during the wind up (Cass ult goes thrown his suppression if she casts it as he casts his ult). AND she will always stun him because he NEEDS to face her to cast his ult.

Malzahar is one of the few mages that new Cass actually destroys in an even skill match up.

SmokingPuffinDec 3, 20141 votes

The range on her other abilities is meaningless since they don't deal noticeable damage on their own, essentially making her one of the shortest range casters ingame

This is a design direction thing. New Cass will be about short ranged sustained damage, a bit like an AP ADC.

I know you and many others don't like that change, but Riot is committed to that direction and the only way we'll get changes to the kit is to embrace that.

This is not directly Cassiopeia related, but about non-PBE players who tend to theorycraft and forget that at the time the amplification is applied your first, maybe even your 2nd, DoT tick already procced. Thus only your last hit gets amplified. It's more often a 6.67% damage bonus than it is a 20% bonus upon trades in lane.

I suspect you're supposed to trade with two Qs. Trading with one Q has never made sense on Cassiopeia, because her cooldown is so short on the thing. You should be able to land two Qs in the same timeframe that say Ahri returns fire with one.

If your trade is QEEQ, then run away using the Q move speed, you should get at least 4 amped ticks, maybe 5.

Kowe The EwokDec 3, 20146 votes

If you get that many E's off your opponent is honestly bad.

No offense but 20% MS is far not enough to chase an enemy who outranges you by 300+. Not to mention that you will be eating minion auto attacks during the whole time. Something champion designers commonly seem to forget when design close-combat DPS squishies...

SmokingPuffinDec 3, 20142 votes

If you get that many E's off your opponent is honestly bad.

Two? Are you expecting the opponent to turn tail the moment Q lands? If they do, sure, you won't land Es but they will have taken free damage. If they don't, landing two Es and a Q is not all that big a time commitment; they're going to get one rotation of spells off and on most mages that's a lost trade.

Cass's historical problems have been gank survivability and facing mobile opponents who can juke her Q. If you're regularly landing Qs she is still a decent laner even with her current sucky numbers.

No offense but 20% MS is far not enough to chase an enemy who outranges you by 300+.

Cass generally shouldn't chase. Cass generally should zone. More often than not, you'll be using the MS boost on Q to disengage.

Not to mention that you will be eating minion auto attacks during the whole time. Something champion designers commonly seem to forget when design close-combat DPS squishies...

Cass is only short ranged by mage standards. By ADC standards, she's got quite long range. If you can trade on Caitlyn without taking much minion damage, you should be able to do the same on Cass.

I know Cass is undertuned right now, but her play patterns are still quite similar to the ones she had when she was a dominant laner. Eventually, her numbers will be balanced; when that happens she'll be a powerful but immobile trader and it's likely that the same QEEQ pattern that was good back in the day will be good again.

Kowe The EwokDec 3, 20146 votes

So does Cass face mages or ADCs in lane? ;)

Not to mention that Cass has 125 less range than her abilities show when compared to ADCs du to how auto attacks are handeled.

On a sidenote: This idea of making her a lategame APC instead of the balanced-through-all-stages she used to be won't ever work anyways.

Simply because she can't target swap like a carry AND can only start attacking after a DELAYED skillshot hit her target. So she either has to significantly outDPS carries (not gonna happen) or has to get her range adjusted so that she can actually trade with othe rmages.

SmokingPuffinDec 3, 20141 votes

So does Cass face mages or ADCs in lane? ;)

The point is that her interaction with opposing lane minions is no more difficult than ADCs, and plenty of ADCs can go mid and trade effectively.

Not to mention that Cass has 125 less range than her abilities show when compared to ADCs du to how auto attacks are handeled.

Her E range is still longer than almost all ADC ranges.

Simply because she can't target swap like a carry AND can only start attacking after a DELAYED skillshot hit her target.

She gets a boatload of free CDR and has two enablers, one of which has a 4 second cooldown. How much target switching are you expecting to need to do?

I'm not saying her kit has zero problems. I just don't think the stuff you're bringing up is the issue. We should focus on discussing her real troubles -- in particular, she's really weak against champions with mobility skills and isn't as safe in lane as other late game scaling champions.

Kowe The EwokDec 3, 20145 votes

You didn't play Cassiopeia pre-rework - did you? Else you would have known that her Q got a 33% CDR increase when reworked.

The whole CDR on her passive is a big hoax.

SmokingPuffinDec 3, 20141 votes

You didn't play Cassiopeia pre-rework - did you? Else you would have known that her Q got a 33% CDR increase when reworked.

The whole CDR on her passive is a big hoax.

I'm not sure what I did to give you the impression I wasn't aware of that change. I rather enjoyed playing Cass when she was strong in season 2, and I'd like to be playing her again. That's why I'm spending the time to discuss her new kit.

I'd recommend you stop thinking about Old Cass. She wasn't a healthy champion; always oppressive in lane, always weak in teamfights, always obnoxious in brushes. That's why Riot left her in a useless state for years. A rework was necessary, is happening, and now we need to make the best of it.

I don't think she will have difficulty switching targets with the current mechanics. I'm mostly worried about her getting squished and her problems dealing with champions like Zed that can make it hard for her to do any damage at all.

Kowe The EwokDec 3, 20147 votes

"Oppressive in lane" Sorry for being so harsh now: But do you really start believing this trash? I guess people do start believing bull**** once it has been told often enough...

Cass was barely played. If she was that strong she would've been a more popular pick wouldn't she?

Not to mention: If cass is oppressive - what are Zed, Ahri, Zigges, Xerath, Kat or hell - Syndra who 1-combo's you if you have anything less than 80% health!

Cass was slightly UP, but close to fine. I have seriously no idea where this "oppressive" cr4p comes from.

If she was half as strong as people retrospectively praise her to be she would've been the most picked champion in any LCS...

SmokingPuffinDec 3, 20141 votes

"Oppressive in lame" Sorry for being so harsh now: But do you really start believing this trash? I guess people do start believing bull**** once it has been told often enough...

It was very true in season 2. Cassiopeia was the most dominant mid laner, with zero bad matchups and a number where the enemy just hid under tower all lane.

Cass was barely played. If she was that strong she would've been a more popular pick wouldn't she?

Cass was barely played, because Riot left her intentionally undertuned, because a balanced Cass had a broken lane phase and still sucked in teamfights, even though she was up 2 kills and 50 cs.

Not to mention: If cass is oppressive - what are Zed, Ahri, Zigges, Xerath, Kat or hell - Syndra who 1-combo's you if you have anything less than 80% health!

None of these champions are anywhere near as good as Old Cass was in lane before being nerfed out of the game. Old Cass had zero bad matchups and it's hard to claim anyone even went even against her; the closest was Morgana but Morgana would just farm and had no real kill potential.

Zed is a guy I usually beat in lane. Right click him more, you can abuse him pre-6.

Ahri is a skill matchup for almost everyone. She lands charm, she wins. No charm, no wins. One of my favorite mids to play against, feels both powerful and fair.

Ziggs is a pusher. Near zero kill potential in lane, but pretty good at shoving waves and pinning the opponent to the turret unless they have good wave clear.

Xerath has good and bad matchups. Typically excels against immobile opponents and struggles with assassins.

Katarina loses almost every lane.

Syndra is probably the strongest overall 1v1 laner today, but she's pretty weak to ganks, has a high skill cap, and can be outplayed. To me, still feels fair, but certainly others disagree.

Cass was slightly UP, but close to fine.

Cass pre-rework was one of the worst champions in the game. Worse than Olaf for sure. Probably better than Urgot. He's also in a similar boat due to his broken laning phase. Still, this is the tier she belonged in pre-rework.

Kowe The EwokDec 3, 20145 votes

In season 2 Cassiopeia was oppressive for 2 weeks. Not because of her kit, but because of the freaking broken synergy of: Will of the Ancients + Hextech Revolver + Spirit Visage Which allowed her to heal for about half the damage she dealt.

Before and after this item combination broke her she was completely fine.

(P.S: This combination also broke Vlad and Morde and was fixed relatively fast)

P.S. calling pre-rework "worse than Olaf" truely shows that you never played her. In the hands of somebody who was able to play her she was a great addition to every team.

SmokingPuffinDec 3, 20141 votes

In season 2 Cassiopeia was oppressive for 2 weeks. Not because of her kit, but because of the freaking broken synergy of: Will of the Ancients + Hextech Revolver + Spirit Visage Which allowed her to heal for about half the damage she dealt.

Before and after this item combination broke her she was completely fine.

The item combo you mention has nothing to do with her lane phase. She was the best laner in the game for at least 6 months.

P.S. calling pre-rework "worse than Olaf" truely shows that you never played her. In the hands of somebody who was able to play her she was a great addition to every team.

shrug I had about a 50% win rate on Olaf in ranked this season. No chance I could do that on Cass, and I'm a better Cass player than I am an Olaf player.

I don't know why you persist in assuming I never played Cass simply because I disagree with you in what the problems are with her new kit.