My positive opinion on the Veigar changes, being a season 4 Diamond Veigar main

Curling Veigar··211 votes·10,611 views

First off I want to start by saying I love the change to his Q. Everything about it is amazing. I don't notice the change to it's cooldown either.

And after that is where things go shady.

His Event horizon is an atrocious PAIN to land. Today I went versus a competent nidalee, and it was the stupidest match up ever. Even if she was dead center in the circle of the warning particle, she wouldn't get stunned because of her pounce. But this isn't a nid thread. I played more than one match and concluded that his E is in need of some changes. One option may be to simply remove it's .5s cast time. It's really depressing because it's nigh impossible to land a stun now. Even if I use it defensively, it doesn't save me from danger.

His Dark Matter is so weird right now. I don't understand why bothering to buff it if you don't change anything about its impact delay, or maybe even the aoe. I'll only land dark matter if a target is stunned, which is not very common.

His Primordial Burst had its ratio lowered for a very unjustified reason. Yes, he gains more ap for his Q stacking. But good Veigars never played him as a passive farm champ; rather using the Q to harass people in lane. So this is sort of forcing him to be a passive mid laner which a lot of Veigar players won't like. I don't actually notice the ult doing less damage though, but in the condition of how his E is in, having a 1.2 ratio on an ULT isn't terrible.

Overall I'd say I think the changes are fun, but have on serious problem. While many Reds pointed out that you'd get a LOT of ap from q now, there's one catch to it. Even someone who doesn't even play Veigar in one of my matches pointed it out. Simply put, with the way his E and W are, what are you going to do with 100 extra AP early on? Even if you had 1000 AP at 30 minutes, you couldn't do anything with it because if you even so much as looked at any enemy champ the wrong way they'll jump on you and you'll die. My point here is that having more ability power isn't always something that can help you win a match.

Also another thing worth mentioning is his passive. I still go OOM in lane despite many of the mana cost reductions.

Also, @Meddler or whoever, DON'T HESITATE TO REVERT THE CHANGES IF YOU WANT TO. His changes looked rushed on paper anyways and if you decide to roll them back and then take more time to work on them, it'd be better because I'd rather have old Veigar than a very under performing Veigar on the live servers.

As it stands, me and many other Veigar mains including DaBox have concluded that Veigar is unplayable in a competent environment. Also, his ult kill laugh is still not working.

Oh and, Bad Santa Veigar's Q sound after the particle hits something is bugged. The incorrect sound file plays.

Sincerely, a worried Veigar main.

187 Comments

Zmuecat105 votes

Haha, I'm sorry.

They kept the cast time on top of the added delay?

Wow. Like... Wow. Speechless. Just... Wow.

Curling Veigar46 votes

{quoted}

Haha, I'm sorry.

They kept the cast time on top of the added delay?

Wow. Like... Wow. Speechless. Just... Wow.

This is what makes me feel useless in games. Even everyone else realizes that I'm useless but I can't do anything about it.

Thryale5 votes

what if they made the warning particles appear the moment veigar pressed E while keeping the cast time? would that help veig while still giving "counter play"?

Curling Veigar12 votes

{quoted}

what if they made the warning particles appear the moment veigar pressed E while keeping the cast time? would that help veig while still giving "counter play"?

That wouldn't really fix anything, in fact, it'd probably make him worse because enemies have a longer time to react to it.

Thryale9 votes

no, I mean have the warning particles last .75 secs before the stun appears, but instead of starting after cast, they start immediately. This would reduce the delay to .25 secs while giving the enemy the same .75 secs to react. (only extremely observant players notice when veig is actually in his cast animation for his E anyway.

Curling Veigar9 votes

{quoted}

no, I mean have the warning particles last .75 secs before the stun appears, but instead of starting after cast, they start immediately. This would reduce the delay to .25 secs while giving the enemy the same .75 secs to react. (only extremely observant players notice when veig is actually in his cast animation for his E anyway.

Oh, I thought you meant the warning particle stays up for the entire .75s duration along with the .5 cast time.

That'd seem like a pretty good change, but it wouldn't tackle all of his problems.

Blacksteel1523 votes

I'm speaking as someone who tends to be in the low-ish gold tier, but has approximately 1000 games played as Veigar, my previous favorite champion, and has played him competitively.

Let's break down the changes that were made to him this patch.

1.) Baleful Strike This genuinely has positive and negative effects, though in my experience playing him with the changes, it's significantly more negative than positive. It's now a skill shot that hits two targets, it has more range, and it has a shorter cooldown early and a higher cooldown late. There are some obvious benefits to this - you can hit people farther away, you can set up skill-shots behind you while backing off, etc. You can also hit two targets, the most significant aspect of which is that you can potentially kill two minions with one Q. As mana-hungry champion early, this can be a major boon. However, the downsides far outweigh the upsides. You no longer have reliable poke, especially against champions with good mobility. The fact that it costs so much mana limits how much Veigar can take advantage of the reduced early cooldown, while later in the game his reliable damage skill in sustained fights has a 25% longer cooldown. The highly-touted "kill two minions" benefit only works if there are two minions in a line that can be killed, while I found more often in lane that I had to unwillingly damage a minion I didn't want to to pick up a kill behind it or vice versa, and I missed a lot of minions I'd like to pick up because there were two or more others in the way and my lane opponent wasn't a complete moron. Furthermore, with certain minions being worth more than others in terms of AP, not being able to directly choose your targets hurts even more. Picking up two regular minions but losing a cannon minion because I couldn't get a shot at it cancels out in terms of extra AP. Later in the game, when I could one-hit minions, this was less of a big deal, but by the time that happens you're out of laning phase and are spending a lot less time farming. In teamfights, the increased range lets you play a little safer, but again you now have a skillshot that can be dodged. In particular, people who now flash away with low health after you cast at them aren't still going to be hit, which really hurts Veig's kill combo against champs tanky enough to survive a W-Ult combo.

2.) Dark Matter It's cheaper and has a shorter cooldown at higher levels. No complaints there.

3.) Event Horizon It's now cheaper at high levels, has a slightly shorter cooldown, a slightly longer range, and takes 0.75 seconds to kick in. This skill was Veigar's bread and butter, and all the minor nice changes above aside, this change absolutely cripples him. Obviously the intended plan was to get rid of Veigar's stunned from full to dead terror combo, and I'll freely agree that this is not an unreasonable thing to introduce some counterplay options to. But having played Veigar in the new patch, I have literally had people walk out of the field after I caught them in the middle. Or done any of the things the could already do if you didn't catch them right with it before - flash out, shaco-jump out, cast on you from inside it, whatever. The point is, as a glass cannon champion with a high-damage skill that takes 1.25s to hit, Veigar was completely reliant on his stun to be able to do two things - hit with Dark Matter, and safely enter cast range to use his other skills. Basically, he can't do either now. The only times I was able to hit with my stun with any kind of reliability was when casting on people who were already stunned or snared, or when casting into the confusion of a teamfight. And the latter becomes less reliable the better your opponents are. But the other problem is that Veigar's stun was a powerful defensive tool. Veig has always been a pure glass cannon, and most assassins can kill him in the time it takes his new stun field to kick in, even if they don't bother to dodge it. Without being able to use it defensively and blow up assassins before they could blow him up, Veigar now has no counterplay options against assassins, especially with the nerf to his ult and the decreased reliability of his other two skills making tankier Veigar builds that are still useful unfeasible. This is actually the biggest nerf I found, because without any defensive tools, you're way too easy to kill to make being a mid-to-long-range sustained Meteor-and-skill-shot poker a viable new play option. As to the increased range, I'm rarely casting stun field at full range except to either initiate a fight or catch a fleeing opponent. In either case, the 0.75s reaction time the opponents get vastly outweighs the benefits of an extra 50 range.

4.) Primordial Blast It's cheaper, it has a 10s reduced recharge at all ranks, and it had it's AP ratio reduced by 0.2. The cheaper bit is always nice, although with Veig's passive, mana problems later in the game usually don't happen. The 10s reduced recharge is, hands down, the thing I found to be the most beneficial. The 0.2 AP reduction, though, hurts a lot. Presumably it's to make up for all the extra AP Veigar will be getting from his new Q, but it's nowhere close to enough to offset this nerf (and as described above, while I definitely got more AP with my Q, the tons of extra AP theory doesn't quite pan out for several reasons). Most of Veig's AP still comes from his gear, and especially with DFG just being removed, nerfing the damage on his big bursty skill really, really hurts him.

In conclusion, Veigar has all but lost his only defensive tool, his only way to initiate safely, his only way to close gaps against a fleeing opponent, and his only way to reliably hit his W. His Q has gained strength in some ways, but at the cost of his ability to consistently poke, use it to kill minions he doesn't have a convenient shot on, and a huge hit to his sustained damage in fights. His R, while he can cast it a bit more often, does a lot less damage and doesn't do a whole lot by itself except against already very squishy targets (many of whom do have single-target, instant stuns that they can use to kill him now). In the opinion of someone who is not a pro league player, but is a pretty experienced Veigar player, his new kit takes out all of his strengths and gives him almost nothing to compensate. As much as I love Veigar, I know better than anybody how hard it can be to counter him if he's good, and will freely admit that some additional counterplay options against him would be nice. Something like a 0.25s delay in his stun to give players some reaction time without making it unhittable might be a reasonable possibility. Or making the interior of the field slow until the stun kicks in. Or making the entire circle stun anyone who's still inside it after the delay. Or making Veigar a lot more inherently tanky. Or dumping his W in favor of a survivability-based skill and moving the damage onto a DOT inside the stun field, like Malz's pool. There's lots of options, but these changes took away pretty much all of the strengths he had without giving him any new strengths to work with.

LANWhale22 votes

Sincere argument, nice points made, and over all a nice tune. Hm this does meet the requirements of good feedback but i'm afraid Riot won't answer this thread. Not because they hate us, oh no, rather they are scared of the lash-back. Over all though, I hope they do answer, I have no input to add in regard to the change to Veigar.

I agree it feels rushed and has left Veigar in a over all bad spot. So you have my support and up-vote, but that's all the input I can give you on it, as you and I see the same thing here.

Curling Veigar14 votes

{quoted}

Sincere argument, nice points made, and over all a nice tune. Hm this does meet the requirements of good feedback but i'm afraid Riot won't answer this thread. Not because they hate us, oh no, rather they are scared of the lash-back. Over all though, I hope they do answer, I have no input to add in regard to the change to Veigar.

I agree it feels rushed and has left Veigar in a over all bad spot. So you have my support and up-vote, but that's all the input I can give you on it, as you and I see the same thing here.

All I want is a red to talk about the changes. That's it. There has been no back to back discussion of the Veigar changes for whatever reason ever since they were announced.

LANWhale4 votes

I feel for you my friend, I feel for you. there has been a lack of Riot post if you ask me but hey if they were on the boards 24/7 I would tell them to go back to work. But talking with us every now and then, especially with big things like these, wouldn't hurt either.

Hard Penetrator4 votes

Keep your head up, they are listening. I am sure they will do something about this champion. It's not first nor last time this happens.

Great thread.

Baron Perenolde14 votes

Bump for tiny evil.

Curling Veigar12 votes

Just spectated a friend playing Veigar in challenger elo. He got destroyed. It was pitiful.

Direwolfiez3 votes

How badly? I'm mildly interested in the match stats.

Curling Veigar5 votes
Direwolfiez5 votes

Ouch. That's "destroyed", all right. He has my sympathies as a fellow Veigar player.

Reazale3 votes

Thats one of thebest if not best Veigar players......

Rrett3 votes

Poor dabox.

He got me really interested in veigar and now even with him veigar is useless. Sad days.

Cu Sidhe8 votes

Very well-written post, my friend. I hadn't realized it still had the cast time plus the delay. While the old stun was less than optimal as far as balance goes I feel an ability should be usable.

I'm wondering if it'd be easier for them just to remove the current way E is and replace it with like a vortex or something that pulls champions in slowly to the center.

So sort of act like a slow if you're walking out of it but speed up if you're walking into it.

Definitely fits the black hole-theme.

RavenMagus8 votes

Here's a few of my thoughts on Veigar, after having played him a fair amount today. I have played old Veigar a fair amount too (wouldn't call him my main, but I have decent experience with the champion).

  • The Q: The double hit thing is cool, and I don't mind that it's a skillshot now. Skillshots are more fun to play with and more interesting to play against. I feel like the range is incredibly short for a skillshot, though...

  • The W: You pretty much hit this on the nose. It's so hard to land this now. The stun is difficult to land - and this ability basically requires the stun to land if you want it to do something besides waste mana. I suppose it makes Veigar a good pick if the team can keep enemy champs locked down in an AOE really well - but once that team comp reaches magical Christmasland, it doesn't need any more help from Veigar, and other champs (Orianna) are better at getting there.

  • The E: I really don't want to complain about the new delay. Everyone else is complaining already; it's clearly here to stay; and the long range, instant stun was pretty bullshit as is anyways. But it's just so hard to deal with the crazy mobility champs everyone's playing these days now. I can't stun (and thus, can't even really fight) a LeBlanc at any point in time. With the addition of Q being a skillshot now too, it's harder than ever for Veigar to fight champions who can jump around - and that's all that's being played nowadays.

  • The R: The patch notes themselves say that they're reducing Veigar's reliability but not his damage - but then there comes a clear, straight nerf to his damage on his ult. I don't understand this one bit. The doubleshot Q can help farming, but not by that much - consider that it has a higher cooldown at max rank anyways. I'm okay with the damage being nerfed if the damage needed to be nerfed, but claiming his damage isn't going to be nerfed and then nerfing it anyways is ... confusing, to say the least.

  • Mana issues: You talked about this briefly yourself, OP, but I'll mention it again. It was always my biggest trouble when playing Veigar. He starts the game with a free Chalice and he can buy a second Chalice to go with it, and even then he'll have mana issues in the laning phase. He's a mage whose playstyle requires him to be constantly spamming spells, but his manacosts are prohibitively high. (At level 7, for example, he has just over 600 mana - and one full combo, casting all of his abilities exactly once, will require nearly 60% of his mana bar to accomplish.) The manacost buffs in the patch seemed like they were aimed at helping this ... but they were all on his W and E and only on higher ranks of the abilities, so he won't see much benefit at all until he's well past the laning phase...

Curling Veigar7 votes

I really hope a Red comes in here and reads all of the posts because they're 100% Correct.

Veigar needs love.

Zzest7 votes

I really don't understand Riot's thought process behind these changes. In a meta dominated by assassins and champions with abundant gap closers, they decided that nerfing Veigar's E ( the one thing stopping this immobile and super squishy champion from being instantly blown up) by giving it BOTH a cast time and an arm time. I just can't figure out how this change got through being play tested with all its flaws.

dnl6 votes

i swear if they made e literally unhittable why didnt they make w scale less but instant? take out no counterplay stun put in no counterplay nuke

pretty much nidalee amirite

Curling Veigar9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Actually Dyrus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pbh9AQEF,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-02-26T05:00:47.893+0000)

i swear if they made e literally unhittable why didnt they make w scale less but instant? take out no counterplay stun put in no counterplay nuke

pretty much nidalee amirite

This is another thing, I mentioned the nid match up right? Well it was fucking stupid because she's throwing spears 24/7 all lane phase and the moment I get hit by ONE she comes in from the other planet with her gap closer and me having absolutely no way to defend myself there with a delayed stun. Like I pressed E and I'm already dead because she's a healthy champ

dnl12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sadistic Veigar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pbh9AQEF,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-02-26T05:04:25.768+0000)

This is another thing, I mentioned the nid match up right? Well it was fucking stupid because she's throwing spears 24/7 all lane phase and the moment I get hit by ONE she comes in from the other planet with her gap closer and me having absolutely no way to defend myself there with a delayed stun. Like I pressed E and I'm already dead because she's a healthy champ

some GDer was playing with some balance team guy and the gder asks "So, when are you nerfing nidalee?"

the balance team guy ACTUALLY said "Why would we nerf her? She takes skill!" fucking silvers on balance team i swear

Hellish Prophecy5 votes

Yeah I played as Anivia vs a Veig after his nerfs/buffs. It went very bad for him. As ANIVIA. One of the slowest and most immobile champs in the game, I managed to avoid 90% of the Es he threw out. He knew how to play Veig and "God I hate these changes" was said in allchat by him quite a few times. Besides facing a Zed it was possibly the worst matchup for the enemy team possible.

Curling Veigar8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Its Not Ogre Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pbh9AQEF,comment-id=001a,timestamp=2015-02-26T12:30:44.292+0000)

Yeah I played as Anivia vs a Veig after his nerfs/buffs. It went very bad for him. As ANIVIA. One of the slowest and most immobile champs in the game, I managed to avoid 90% of the Es he threw out. He knew how to play Veig and "God I hate these changes" was said in allchat by him quite a few times. Besides facing a Zed it was possibly the worst matchup for the enemy team possible.

He can't win any lane match up now. Or just win in general.

Rrett5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sadistic Veigar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pbh9AQEF,comment-id=001a0000,timestamp=2015-02-26T15:06:43.579+0000)

He can't win any lane match up now. Or just win in general.

Yup Yup. The only possible way to win with veigar now is to passively sit back and farm your Q. Roaming, harrassing, and playing aggressive are completely removed from him.

Even if veigar miraculously ends up being some what OK with these changes, he's going to be beyond boring to play. I don't really enjoy sitting in lane for 30 minutes to be some what useful when I used to be able to gank about 10 times in 10 minutes and pretty much win the game.

KDragonL4 votes

I think this would have gone over better if they had completely changed his E to something else. Like an AoE slow and and shortened the time for W to land.

Curling Veigar4 votes

{quoted}

I think this would have gone over better if they had completely changed his E to something else. Like an AoE slow and and shortened the time for W to land.

That wouldn't help because if he slowed someone with a skill they'd just turn on him and melt him instantly.

Malix Farwin4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sadistic Veigar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pbh9AQEF,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2015-02-26T06:25:07.769+0000)

That wouldn't help because if he slowed someone with a skill they'd just turn on him and melt him instantly.

or just dash away

Thronix3 votes

Used to main Veigar off and on since Beta.

I'm not sure how making bot Q and E dodgeable is supposed to balance him out. He is very weak now. His stun is horrible now.

The biggest problem is Q no longer lands if there are minions in between yourself and the target.

I won't be playing him again until changes are made.

PiRoScOuT2 votes

Apparently I am one of the few Veigar players who enjoyed playing him passive. I haven't had time to play a game yet but I am looking forward to seeing how much ap I can get with this new q. I have watched some attempts to land a stun, and it didn't go to well.

Curling Veigar5 votes

{quoted}

Apparently I am one of the few Veigar players who enjoyed playing him passive. I haven't had time to play a game yet but I am looking forward to seeing how much ap I can get with this new q. I have watched some attempts to land a stun, and it didn't go to well.

The reason we play him like this is because his q is a reliable form of harass, plus its damage was underestimated, so you had a high chance of winning lane and then roaming to a lane that needs help.

Thryale1 votes

I understand the merit for that, but at the same time, I've never had much success just harrassing and not farming with q. Most mid laners usually have so much sustain and the short range and low dmg(at early ranks) make it difficult.

I've had a lot more success running 9% spell vamp and focusing on farming. By the time I back and once I hit 6-7 my q's are now hitting hard enough for me to harrass, once they get to around 70-60% they are a free kill with a full combo.

Curling Veigar1 votes

{quoted}

I understand the merit for that, but at the same time, I've never had much success just harrassing and not farming with q. Most mid laners usually have so much sustain and the short range and low dmg(at early ranks) make it difficult.

I've had a lot more success running 9% spell vamp and focusing on farming. By the time I back and once I hit 6-7 my q's are now hitting hard enough for me to harrass, once they get to around 70-60% they are a free kill with a full combo.

This is the thing. Q is good yeah, but his other skills are still needy.

Thryale4 votes

???

I don't quite follow. I was talking about veig pre-rework. I only played one game with the new veig, and can't bear to play anymore.

LoLnOnHaPrObLeMi5 votes

Right now we could say that 2 skill are just useless. You can't hit someone with W if you don't stun the enemy with your E, and right now even an adc without mobility can dodge the cage. I mean, unless they are drunk

tl;dr

http://i.gyazo.com/a7013c1ad73ec5c5c3d345df34c2847a.jpg

Kitten of Evil2 votes

Also another thing worth mentioning is his passive. I still go OOM in lane despite many of the mana cost reductions.

How do you think every Lux single Orianna mana-spamming Anivia champ Galio feels?

I agree with your points. I just wanted to point out mana regen nerfs sucked for more than just Veigar.

Curling Veigar4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pbh9AQEF,comment-id=003e,timestamp=2015-02-26T22:34:26.067+0000)

How do you think every Lux single Orianna mana-spamming Anivia champ Galio feels?

I agree with your points. I just wanted to point out mana regen nerfs sucked for more than just Veigar.

The champs you listed don't have passives that were made for mana regeneration, though.

Kiyoish1 votes

His Event horizon is an atrocious PAIN to land. Today I went versus a competent nidalee, and it was the stupidest match up ever. Even if she was dead center in the circle of the warning particle, she wouldn't get stunned because of her pounce. But this isn't a nid thread. I played more than one match and concluded that his E is in need of some changes. One option may be to simply remove it's .5s cast time. It's really depressing because it's nigh impossible to land a stun now. Even if I use it defensively, it doesn't save me from danger.

I believe it's .75 atm, and I the only thing I would accept towards this is: -Less cast animation -slightly less delay (maybe put it at .5 or .25)

Instant AoE stuns aren't fun for anyone to go against, especially with that level of cc.

His Primordial Burst had its ratio lowered for a very unjustified reason. Yes, he gains more ap for his Q stacking. But good Veigars never played him as a passive farm champ; rather using the Q to harass people in lane. So this is sort of forcing him to be a passive mid laner which a lot of Veigar players won't like. I don't actually notice the ult doing less damage though, but in the condition of how his E is in, having a 1.2 ratio on an ULT isn't terrible.

I disagree with how you say he is more passive now, and imo is now more open to harass angles/farm options with the pierce, even though I know how most Veigar players harassed quite often before.

Also the ult changes are justified since it makes him mostly overkill against an AD type champ in the game with his own ridiculous ratio. That said buffing his enemy%AP ratio would be fair to increase his antimage, especially since most mages have the option of either Abyssal or Grail to counter him.

Thryale5 votes

Instant AoE stuns aren't fun for anyone to go against, especially with that level of cc.

What are you talking about? I'm a veigar main, and every single time I see the enemy team pick veigar, I get an evil smile on my face as I instalock my best assassin. (this was pre-rework veigar too)

Veigar was so easy to lane against. He's weak as dirt in lane, and squishy as all get out. Before the fizz nerfs, veig was a walking free kill, and that was with his instant stun. I have never ever found veig to be oppressive to play against when he was on the enemy team, even when fed, veig was still easy to kill. . . . Also: Annie.

EDIT: Gosh darn it riot! fix your stupid text markup language! Stop collapsing the whitespace! some ppl actually USE extra white spaces!!! ;lbskjadfoja;fjkad;fjakfd;kj

Dengeden1 votes

So even a Veigar main has this weird fixation on killing their target, huh? Not much I can say, then. You can still use Q to last hit and poke (minion-champion). How about placing the box where you don't want the enemy to be instead of trying to stun them? If you're still going oom, you're probably not running 21-0-9 (you should).

Curling Veigar8 votes

{quoted}

So even a Veigar main has this weird fixation on killing their target, huh? Not much I can say, then. You can still use Q to last hit and poke (minion-champion). How about placing the box where you don't want the enemy to be instead of trying to stun them? If you're still going oom, you're probably not running 21-0-9 (you should).

Because a Veigar without kills = useless. It' simple.

Dropping the cage where you don't want someone to go seems interesting, but it doesn't do anything to help Veigar as of now.

DanofDemacia1 votes

qq get over it if u want him to have utility you need to tone down that damage.

2Grim4U9 votes

But they removed both his utility AND his damage....

Curling Veigar7 votes

{quoted}

But they removed both his utility AND his damage....

This is another thing I don't understand.

GeneralDissent1 votes

What if they made the stun targetable instead of a skill shot? That way it would center on the champion. The whole idea of the stun originally was that it would hem people in but not necessarily lock them into the combo (that's why it's a ring instead of a skill shot stun like many other champs have), but as players got better they learned to just line up the edge with the target so it guarantees the stun. If you had to target someone with it, and they got rid of the delay, they would have the chance of stopping inside the ring once it was cast, thus avoiding the combo. And most champs can jump it now anyway. That would make it much better defensively, though, while still giving counter play and allowing him some interesting team fight dynamics.

Curling Veigar3 votes

{quoted}

What if they made the stun targetable instead of a skill shot? That way it would center on the champion. The whole idea of the stun originally was that it would hem people in but not necessarily lock them into the combo (that's why it's a ring instead of a skill shot stun like many other champs have), but as players got better they learned to just line up the edge with the target so it guarantees the stun. If you had to target someone with it, and they got rid of the delay, they would have the chance of stopping inside the ring once it was cast, thus avoiding the combo. And most champs can jump it now anyway. That would make it much better defensively, though, while still giving counter play and allowing him some interesting team fight dynamics.

I don't think that'd happen because Riot is really against targeted CC.

KaisadiIIa4 votes

RIOT is really against anything that is not a dash or a skillshot.

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