Can we please nerf tahm kench already

Curling Veigar·Nov 7, 2015·147 votes·8,184 views

building pure tank and 100-0ing my bruisers isn't particularly balanced

just look at his w's stats lol

151 Comments

A Miss FortuneNov 7, 201540 votes

Tahm has a lot of glaring issues. Like how inherently broken his devour is, being able to invalidate a person out of the game for a few seconds on a low cooldown. Though his ability to build 6 Warmogs and 100-0 anybody is ridiculous. He's rewarded way too much for being way too tanky (he has 2 health bars and decent base stats), it feels like a Tahm Support is just like Annie Support with 6 Deathcaps except this time she doesn't ever die.

PennsNov 7, 20158 votes

How about the fact that his "broken" W basically renders 2 champs of his team useless for its whole duration if he decides to save a teammate?

Like, if Darius is even remotely balanced because "Riot wants him to get eZ penta kills with 350 AD while building full tank", Tahm is weak af lol.

BakedLotionNov 7, 201536 votes

{quoted}

How about the fact that his "broken" W basically renders 2 champs of his team useless for its whole duration if he decides to save a teammate?

Like, if Darius is even remotely balanced because "Riot wants him to get eZ penta kills with 350 AD while building full tank", Tahm is weak af lol.

Being untargetable is better than being dead. Also, i dont know where u got 2 champs useless for whole duration from cause :

both tahm and the ally can choose when they want to get out of his w. minimum duration is 2 seconds. Whole duration is 6.
Tahm can still use all of his skills excluding his ult, which doesnt matter cause he cant ult in a fight anyway.
huge MS boost, and the ally gets a free dash at the end. This can go through walls and allow ranged champions to attack in a safe place, or gapclose.
Again, the ally got saved, and is untargetable. What more do you want?

pls think about what you're about to say before you type some bullshit

CoolKnightSTNov 7, 20153 votes

His entire kit is designed arround his W. The reason why their is health scaling on his R is because he else wouldn't deal damage. He has a passive that does no damage & an E that doesn't do damage. If his R wouldn't had that passive they would be forced to shift some of the damage to his Q or W what is really not a good idea. Now it's spit over his entire kit. They actualy buffed the number and I not sure it's a good idea to revert that nerf without compensation. Tahm still really struggles when he falls behind unlike other supports. He's really depended on scaling to perform well.

What they could do if shift the ult passive to his passive & reducing the number. This way his pre 6 will be a lot of stronger but the damage will scale less hard. This could be a buff actualy but in the lategame he wouldn't be able to duel these bruisers where people are crying about right now.

Blue Moon WolfNov 8, 20152 votes

also worth mentioning champs like Karthus and Fiddlesticks who have AOE abilities can keep them active inside Tahm, practically giving them a mobile item 3157

Curling VeigarNov 7, 20159 votes

{quoted}

How about the fact that his "broken" W basically renders 2 champs of his team useless for its whole duration if he decides to save a teammate?

Like, if Darius is even remotely balanced because "Riot wants him to get eZ penta kills with 350 AD while building full tank", Tahm is weak af lol.

There's a difference, Darius is slow as fuck and easily kited. Kench has his Q if you try to kite him. Darius also builds a few damage items, not FULL TANK. And a phage gives you HP, kench 100-0ing people with phages as a pure tank isn't balanced. Not just his damage, he has a whole bunch of more bullshit you can easily exploit..

PennsNov 7, 20152 votes

What... Slow as fuck and easily kited is literally the definition and purpose of Tahm... Darius applies BC speed boost with every tick of his passive and has 2 slows, 1 of them with the standard AA range for adcs and 1 of them slows by 90%... Darius builds max. 1 bruiser item which has HP as its most important stat and after that full tank from what I know...

You say its broken that Tahm killed your "bruisers" (Lee), but u know what Lee couldve done? W onto a teammate, ward jump away, Q a minion or monster and jump away, ult Tahm away, literally press any button and just kite Tahm with his team? Mundo is basically the same with less utility but more overall dmg.

Also how should I understand "kench 100-0ing people with phages?" Does Tahm build phage now? Multiple phages even lel?

Great OzymandiusNov 7, 20153 votes

He is not easily kited. His tongue is on a low cooldown and has good range. If you try and kite him he'll slow you and he is tanky enough to get close to you then has enough damage from building tanky to kill you. You need teammates to peel tahm off. It's really strange what a threat a pure tank building support can pose.

PennsNov 7, 20153 votes

This is 100% true for Mundo as well so how comes I see no one complain about him?

NichtHurzNov 7, 20154 votes

Mundo's utility is all focused on himself, of course the slow helps your team, but he doesn't have anything else to help his team directly. Tahm has insane utility and actually counters assassins way too hard. I just played a game with Fizz where I could've easily bursted the enemy Draven down like 10 times, but Tahm simply denied my damage every single time. Once I had my E back so I could at least jump on him with my basic abilities he just devoured him again. I was completely taken out of the game as soon as teamfights started because I had literally no chance to assassinate squishy targets from there on. It's just really frustrating to play against and there's no real outplay potential other than killing Tahm or separating him or the adc from the team...which is not really possible as well because Tahm doesn't have a reason to run away and the adc knows he's save due to Devour.

PennsNov 7, 20151 votes

Yeah well like I said, less utility but more damage (also a huge speed boost).

And to be fair, Fizz gets taken out of the game as soon as teamfights start anyway, I think you shouldve just kept split pushing bot or top with lich bane especially against a Draven. The thing is, what happens after Tahm eats Draven because, lets say, you hit ult on him? You could just not follow on it because Tahm is around, or you could suicide mode with E and Zhonyas. No matter what happens, the fight still continues tho, doesnt it? And since Draven got eaten, he cant do anything + since Tahm is melee he cant fight with a Draven inside him either. So, even if you die, it still became a 3v4 for Tahms team for a few seconds.

InivtesPreezeNov 8, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Yeah well like I said, less utility but more damage (also a huge speed boost).

And to be fair, Fizz gets taken out of the game as soon as teamfights start anyway, I think you shouldve just kept split pushing bot or top with lich bane especially against a Draven. The thing is, what happens after Tahm eats Draven because, lets say, you hit ult on him? You could just not follow on it because Tahm is around, or you could suicide mode with E and Zhonyas. No matter what happens, the fight still continues tho, doesnt it? And since Draven got eaten, he cant do anything + since Tahm is melee he cant fight with a Draven inside him either. So, even if you die, it still became a 3v4 for Tahms team for a few seconds.

http://matchhistory.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/EUW1/209481757?champion=223

Who is surprised he plays Tahm Kench a lot?

Celeste BenalNov 9, 20151 votes

Nice job adding the single champion modifier to the url so all we see is games with that specific champ.

Great OzymandiusNov 7, 20152 votes

Look at the entire kit. Tahm can follow up with stuns, his own large % max health damage on all autos and abilities, and devour. Mundo can only follow up with extra damage from his e empowered auto attacks and his low damage aoe burning agony. In total, it is much more frustrating to play against tahm than mundo. The low cooldown on tahm's abilities means that if he devours you once, he can chain devour you. There is very little counterpay unless you have really strong mobility spells to escape.

NuparuNov 7, 20153 votes

{quoted}

What... Slow as fuck and easily kited is literally the definition and purpose of Tahm... Darius applies BC speed boost with every tick of his passive and has 2 slows, 1 of them with the standard AA range for adcs and 1 of them slows by 90%... Darius builds max. 1 bruiser item which has HP as its most important stat and after that full tank from what I know...

You say its broken that Tahm killed your "bruisers" (Lee), but u know what Lee couldve done? W onto a teammate, ward jump away, Q a minion or monster and jump away, ult Tahm away, literally press any button and just kite Tahm with his team? Mundo is basically the same with less utility but more overall dmg.

Also how should I understand "kench 100-0ing people with phages?" Does Tahm build phage now? Multiple phages even lel?

Ok, let me phrase this in a way that will go through your lead brick eyeballs.

Tahm, a pure tank, should, under no circumstance, be able to 100-0 anything with damage or dueling stats when he's building pure tank. This is like Sejuani or Gragas all over again - they built pure tank items and could literally murder whoever they wanted, and they got absolutely smashed with nerfs on their items and kits until they were forced out of meta.

His 30+% max health damage on his W needs to be nerfed. Combine that ability and the fact that there's absolutely no indicator for his passive timer, his Q can apply his passive while having the hitbox of Morgana snare and a fairly strong slow or a stun if he applied all of his stacks plus ridiculous amounts of damage, and his grey health which basically allows him to effectively gain 50-75% extra of his HP value, and he's completely broken.

And please don't act like him saving the ADC makes either vulnerable. He gains a speed boost while consuming an ally.

I even bolded what you needed to pay attention to.

ZT XperimentorNov 7, 20153 votes

Clearly you've never seen a real tank either, it's not using that cannon to slice bread you know.

Celeste BenalNov 9, 20151 votes

Why should tanks not be able to fight? That's pure nonsense. He has a huge fish/lobster indicator on his passive. wtf are you talking about? Its right there on both players' screens right next to the champion he has been tongue lashing for the last 10 seconds, because that's how damn long it takes to get to 3 stacks unless he has an ass load of AS or CDR. His white shield disappears extremely quickly and if used, completely sacrifices all of his stored up grey HP. Its a "Use only in case of emergency" ability. His stun/devour on enemies requires 3 stacks of "An Acquired Hunger" to even proc. If you are either sitting right on top of him or are too bad a player to dodge the Q at range, that's your fault.

I would also like to point out that by building full HP, he forgoes all the AP scaling that he has on his abilities. He could just as well build all those AP+HP items and do even more damage. Hmm... thanks for the idea.

BoulderoxNov 8, 20152 votes

Meanwhile hp is the only stat that helps him, and he strives for, tahm I find is better as an anti engage with his utility devourer instead of kill power alone.

Secondly... Thresh lantern is just as good if not better than tahms ally devour, but is debatable. Range, mobility,surprise factor, tahm, you know what he can do when you see his fat ass, thresh always can do something sneaky. Secondly, tahms ult is shit, let's be honest, it needs to not ping the enemy, and the only reason people don't call it out is because of the damage bonus for hp scaling.

SecOndly, tahm is just as bad for being rewarded for hp building as Riven is for ad and cdr building on a champ that relies on low cooldown combos, while.having insane utility, defense, and damage. But riven never is touched.... Just saying.

warpenguin555Nov 8, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile hp is the only stat that helps him, and he strives for, tahm I find is better as an anti engage with his utility devourer instead of kill power alone.

Secondly... Thresh lantern is just as good if not better than tahms ally devour, but is debatable. Range, mobility,surprise factor, tahm, you know what he can do when you see his fat ass, thresh always can do something sneaky. Secondly, tahms ult is shit, let's be honest, it needs to not ping the enemy, and the only reason people don't call it out is because of the damage bonus for hp scaling.

SecOndly, tahm is just as bad for being rewarded for hp building as is for ad and cdr building on a champ that relies on low cooldown combos, while.having insane utility, defense, and damage. But riven never is touched.... Just saying.

but the thing is you can still kill riven

BoulderoxNov 8, 20152 votes

What part of 40%cdr 100% ad scaling shield on low cd don't you get? Tahm is like a singed, you shouldn't go out of your way to try to kill hom, or it's your fault if something turns.

MatezoideNov 7, 201518 votes

Just revert the buffs he didnt need.

BakedLotionNov 7, 201510 votes

lol his w isnt the problem its the bullshit Q damage that has like no cooldown with a 70% slow. If he hits one, you're slowed forever along with getting 1/4th your hp bar taken out each time.

Great OzymandiusNov 7, 20153 votes

I agree. He would be in a better spot if they just nerfed his cooldowns. It is simply obnoxious how he can spam his spells and it is low counterplay especially for melee oponents.

PennsNov 7, 201513 votes

Its funny cause Mundo has like half the cooldown, way higher range and actually does 1/4th of your (current) hp [slayer-jinx-wink]

RisenDarkKnightNov 7, 20158 votes

The worst part is, after he eats you, he'll immediately slow you with his q and then quickly eat you again. His w at max rank with cdr is only a 6 second cooldown.

The Yetii RiderNov 7, 20156 votes

{quoted}

The worst part is, after he eats you, he'll immediately slow you with his q and then quickly eat you again. His w at max rank with cdr is only a 6 second cooldown.

No way to get max CDR as Tank Kench. SV gives 10% CDR, Locket gives 10%z

My build on him is SV, Mog's, DMP, Cinderhulk, Merc Treads or Tabi, and Titanic Hydra. That's only 10% CDR.

You can build FH on him but you sacrifice a lot of damage and 400 health worth of shield if you do that. On Kench, the 100% max health scaling on shield makes resistances worse than flat health.

Professor WardNov 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No way to get max CDR as Tank Kench. SV gives 10% CDR, Locket gives 10%z

My build on him is SV, Mog's, DMP, Cinderhulk, Merc Treads or Tabi, and Titanic Hydra. That's only 10% CDR.

You can build FH on him but you sacrifice a lot of damage and 400 health worth of shield if you do that. On Kench, the 100% max health scaling on shield makes resistances worse than flat health.

in the case that resistances arent that good on him then lucidity boots should be an ok pick-up for a cheap 15% cdr

The Yetii RiderNov 7, 20152 votes

{quoted}

in the case that resistances arent that good on him then lucidity boots should be an ok pick-up for a cheap 15% cdr

10% flat DR off auto attacks isn't resistance, it's just OP. Same with Tenacity. Defensive boots are strong.

WutsKrakenNov 7, 20158 votes

He's an immobile bruiser who can fill multiple roles decently, scales off defense and can actually stand and fight enemies as expected because of his immobility. Hell, look at the juggernauts, they're designed to totally fk you up if they manage to get close to you, but have trouble retreating. Just like Tahm Kench

You can remove his ability to flash with an ally in his W, or even revert his last set of buffs to his damage (I said millions of times he didn't need buffs and was just fine), but besides that he is fine

Gonna probably get a ton of flak for this, but hey, its my observations having fought as and against Tahm many times

Mast3rShakeNov 7, 20152 votes

you have to remember, people are lazy and want to fight every champ the same way. if they cant fight and kill a champ in the way they want to and are used to they will complain about the champ being OP. these people should start a Nasus Tryndamere Volibear are OP thread too

CrushforceXNov 7, 20151 votes

just commented on tryndamere op thread, so they do exist

QuortNov 8, 20152 votes

I believe it was an anti-fun thread... which isn't the same thing as OP. ._.

CoolKnightSTNov 7, 20155 votes

Tahm has it's skillcap & can be really strong but his main strengths is also his main weakness:

Tahm performs good vs immobile champions. Right now we have a meta that contain a lot of them , ...
Tahms tankness mostly works that well because the adc's are in a really poor state now.

In season 6 he get's some indirect nerfs & I think it's fair that we wait till we see what effect these changes will have:

Tank items price increased
Marksmen getting stronger
Meta that probaly will have more mobility creeps

Tahm has weakness right now actualy. He's really weak vs Vayne Kindred Caitlyn Elise Kalista . Hoe goes 50/50 in effectivenss vs Thresh Morgana . But a good Braum should be able to beat him. The reason why he performs so well is because the meta where he hard counters picks like Tristana Veigar .

I'm actualy wouldn't be suprised we will see him more jungle than support in season 6.

BronzoidNov 7, 201510 votes

{quoted} the adc's are in a really poor state now.

lol

Mickey DonnerudoNov 7, 20156 votes

I don't give a fuck about adcs melting Tahm.

The fact that I have to mix damage and tank items on bruisers but I STILL do less damage than full-tank Tahm is fucking stupid. Oh, did I mention Tahm has more utility than me too?

HorrowNov 7, 20154 votes

As someone who reached Plat with a large thanks to Tahm Kench as a Support/Top Laner, the biggest issue is that the Passive on his R (Bonus magic damage for abilities and auto attacks based on your max health) and the active on his E (A shield created based on the damage taken) exist on the SAME kit.

This means that Kench is doubly rewarded for going full tank. He's given HEAPS of damage ( ranging from 150 to 300 extra damage based on heath) but also rewarded with an EXTRA tanky life bar. When you think you're about to finally kill Tahm, he creates a shield of all the damage you just dealt to him which gives him time to finish you off before you manage to peel away that one.

Either the passive on his ult needs to be nerfed or the shield on his E needs to be nerfed. Honestly, these two shouldn't exist in the SAME kit due to how strongly they double dip if they're given decent ratios at all.

SvolskiNov 7, 20152 votes

300 damage on a single target ability? Is heaps? Hold on, lemme ask Morgana how much damage her Q does while stunning you...

AbyssphereNov 7, 20156 votes

{quoted}

300 damage on a single target ability? Is heaps? Hold on, lemme ask Morgana how much damage her Q does while stunning you...

But it's not an ability. It's an on-hit effect that applies to his autos and BOTH of his damaging abilities. 300 bonus damage to every way of doing damage he has is insane even before you take into account the fact that he gets access to that for building absolutely nothing in the way of damage stats.

How on Earth is a Morgana Q doing a lot of damage (with AP) comparable to Tahm Kench's autos, Q and W doing lots of damage with HP?

Cloud273Nov 7, 20154 votes

I think they should give him more utility and nerf his damage slightly. Reduce the channel time on his ult, and allow him to move slightly faster with enemies in his mouth.

EIýziumNov 8, 20154 votes

yup... i recently played a game on him when he was free to play. I went jungle without having any experience of how to play him, and I didnt have runes or the right masteries either. The clearing was super easy, and the ganks were too effective to be real. I simply walked onto the lane, hit the enemy with red buff, my q and another auto attack and then ate them. That already did half health and my allies could finish them off. Just by getting a few assists and kills, I was able to reach godmode. I bought cinderhulk and rushed warmogs and then i was basically unkillable. Boots of swiftness allowed me to catch up to anyone and after 25 minutes, I did a 1v4 quadra kill which resulted in the enemy surrendering. Tahm just has too many strenghts and offers far too much for being such an easy champ. I feel like his % health damage from his ult is pretty broken, if riot removed or reduced it, he could be a fine champion.

d1v1ne beastNov 7, 20153 votes

people are playing graves jg on the pbe Graves summoner 11 don't let this pass rito plz

BladeSteelNov 7, 20153 votes

Why?

Great OzymandiusNov 7, 20154 votes

I agree graves jungle could be interesting. I look forward to a meta where adc's bot lane is not mandatory. Kindred was designed to be in the jungle and it looks like graves has the kit to be in the jungle as well; there is nothing wrong with that. Quinn is designed for mid. The new objective top lane will make duo mid or top more viable. And several other adc's can work as solo top laners. I like the direction Riot is taking the game.

ChaoticPineconeNov 7, 20153 votes

Just wait until the ADC rework. Tahm would get punished more than most since he stacks health.

ZT XperimentorNov 7, 20151 votes

Each of with have a 1/3 ap ratio; meanwhile ekko has 3/4 ratios on all his abilities, with twice the mobility and 3 times the damage despite building tank.

SteelflameNov 7, 20153 votes

Except Kench has HP ratios on all of his abilities after level 6. Remember, 40+8% max hp (or was it bonus?) is added on to EVERYTHING after rank 3 ult, AAs, Q, and any use of devour to hurt an enemy (this makes his W waveclear insanely high). On a person prone to 3k bonus hp being normal.

ZT XperimentorNov 7, 20151 votes

Oh hp being problematic? Guess you've never played vayne or fiora huh? They can decimate him with few cycles of their true damage passives. Not to mention in the upcoming season every carry & assassin can do bonus hp% physical damage ontop of negating healing; be patient.

SteelflameNov 7, 20151 votes

Ironic, because if either of them are focusing him, he is still doing his job as the tank to take squishy aggro. And he is better than any other tank at taking their abuse, due to the two whole health-bars thing.

ZT XperimentorNov 7, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=ZT Xperimentor,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OO7FHE9X,comment-id=00110002,timestamp=2015-11-07T19:14:03.772+0000)

Not to mention tahm excels against burst compositions, apparently some of the complaints are because he can't be tele-fragged like other carries. And that no-one tries to kite him while doing sustained damage, seriously it's one of his biggest flaws but so few even try to take advantage of it.

SteelflameNov 8, 20154 votes

Except by the point you have enough damage to down Tahm, it generally is 4-5 item builds. And still takes a good long time to do. During which, he has to land ONE Q to start an attack chain to kill you if you are kiting, due to it's 70% slow. The issue is, he has such a large hp pool, that by the time you could have downed him, he has had the chance to try and start his win pattern about 5-6 times. He has a TON of tries to get his win out, you have to play perfectly during that time. And by perfectly, you can't even let him get 3 hits in. And lets face it, he gets Deadman's, so one is pretty much a 100% chance if you are actually fighting him and not just running away from him, letting him zone you from the fight.

Honestly, if I was going to nerf Tahm, I would remove his ability to flash while holding an ally, because that just gives him some broken save potential when he already has an overkill MS boost while holding an ally, as well as removing his MS boost mechanic. Remove his ability to eat people over walls, and spit them over walls. That, without changing his damage or anything else, would massively cut down on his overkill utility while still being a tanky monster.