So this stupid guys goes Ashe mid in game 3 of my promos....

Zombiephil··103 votes·6,464 views

and dominates against Cho'Gath in lane and proceeds to carry us with a score of 15-4-10.

Game: http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1797541739/215485041?tab=overview

My point? Don't freak out whenever I or someone else wants to break meta. Because you never know what will happen, and plus, saying stuff like "GG EZREAL JUNGLE" doesn't help at all. He's going Ez Jungle, what can you do about it? Just play on. You saying stuff like, "GG EZREAL JUNGLE" doesn't help at all and ruins the team's chances of winning and is also reportable for Negative Attitude.

172 Comments

lB2kGRlc8y47 votes

The Ashe mid meta is back!?

Borbland8 votes

Good thing I bought Ninja Tabi's for dodge chance :^)

Chaotic Reks2 votes

welp, gotta grab my FON on shen again

BluePolarizer10 votes

Well that's nice and all but today someone going Lucian mid went 2-9 in a game and cost me 20 LP.

Zombiephil10 votes

{quoted}

Well that's nice and all but today someone going Lucian mid went 2-9 in a game and cost me 20 LP.

Well, some meta picks fail. But my point is don't flame the second someone says they are breaking meta. My brother goes ad blitz mid and he gets flamed every champion select yet he usually dominates.

Onegarion2 votes

What if them breaking the meta is done at a dumb time? Like picking themselves into a hard counter or in a matchup they can't win? Is telling them not to do it bad then?

kile1476 votes

Then their breaking the meta isn't the stupid part, it's their ability to pick lane matchups. Don't tell them "Ez mid? non-meta, you suck" remind them that Ez is countered by assassins mid, which he's going against and also why he's not as meta anymore.

Sona Ping1 votes

As opposed to him going Lucian bot and losing, how is that any different?

BluePolarizer1 votes

alot of mids are useful even when losing due to their strong utility, high base damage in burst form, etc. See Lulu, Orianna, Kayle, Karma, Xerath, Anivia, etc. Lucian has zero utility, all he has is damage.

I wouldn't have been pissed if he was a 2-9 Orianna, Ziggs or Kayle.

Sona Ping1 votes

But you see, reacting that way doesn't make sense. It's why people are disagreeing with ya. It's being mad at someone for doing bad but not being mad at the same thing because the champion choice is popular, a.k.a. meta. The gameplay mistakes are still the same. And yes, they do have utility if they lose lane, but 9 deaths is more than just losing.

A bad Lucian mid gives gold to the enemy team so they do a lot of damage. A bad Lucian bot gives gold to the enemy team so they do a lot of damage. While a bad Orianna mid gives gold to the enemy team so they do a lot of damage so they will punch through her shield anyway. Or he could be Xerath who sends out an orb to stop the enemy diving on you all for a second but the retaliation won't do as much do to the 400 health and armor he picked up from knocking around the Xerath.

BluePolarizer1 votes

I don't care about meta breaking if it is done intelligently. I look for certain things in a role. In mids, I look for utility, CC and burst damage. You want to go Sona mid? Sure. You want to go AP Kog'Maw or Varus mid? Sure. You want to go full AD assassin Jarvan or Rek'Sai mid? Sure. They have a crap ton of burst and utility. Lucian, regardless of build, has very little burst and utility. He has no stun, slow, shield, suppress, root, speed-up, heal, vision, sub-2 second burst damage or reliable long range poke.

You also think that being behind means they're bad mechanically. That isn't necessarily the case. They might just have trash map awareness, but once they group up, that doesn't matter. A 2-9 Lucian has fed the enemy team 2700 gold. That's pretty major but that's just 1 big item. The bigger problem is that Lucian has bad farm from dying so much, and a Lucian without items is just trash. Now take a 2-9 Malzahar. Sure, he's gonna have no items, but he has a silence, percent HP damage and a point and click suppress that's all item independent. That means Malzahar can still peel for the carries or help catch a target with his CC. Sure it's nice to have items to have more damage and tankiness to deal that damage, but its not important. I've won games with 1-7 Malzahars, Brands and Oriannas who got caught alot laning phase by ganks but once in teamfights, could CC the important targets. Meanwhile the 2-9 Lucian, no matter how he plays, just doesn't have the kit to contribute in teamfights if he's behind.

You also might check up on my latest comment which has been strongly upvoted where I explain why Lucian mid is useless if losing and even if winning can still be a liability to the team, and is different from ADC Lucian feeding.

Sona Ping1 votes

Small business first. "You also think that being behind means they're bad mechanically." That's not implied by what I wrote. "but that's just 1 big item." Just? A large ticket completed item in difference is "just" ? A bot lane with difference being between a pickaxe and BF is a huge, and that's a lots less than almost 3k in gold and levels.

"Lucian, regardless of build, has very little burst and utility. He has no stun, slow,.... a Lucian without items [(i.e. is behind)] is just trash... [meanwhile Malzahar has these great traits like] he has a silence, percent HP damage and a point and click suppress that's all item independent....etc." These are all great reason for an argument on why Malzahar is a better champion than Lucian but that's not what I was asking. You know? My question was how would be materially any different than Lucian elsewhere, which you haven't addressed, not that I am blaming you. However, what you ended up writing were reasons why you should pick ADC Malzahar bot lane instead of Lucian lol. All you did say on the say on the subject was "I look for certain things in a role." As in, this is based on your own, personal conceptions of what the pick should have been. But mid lane isn't a even role, It's a lane. This is your own preference and that's fine, but like a lot of preferences, it didn't make sense, which was the original point of all of this. And if we were to speak on this some more, someone could write out how a lot of competitive mid picks are assassins with no utility and equally do no damage without items, someone could just as easily write paragraphs on how picking a Ranged AD character for mid lane is great due to increased pushing power, speed in taking objective, more DPS for tank busting, and so on.

"You also might check up on my latest comment which has been strongly upvoted where I...." I would but First: Sorry, I don't really care about upvotes, thumbs, reblogs, plusies, or other such silly things. Second: said comment doesn't seem to actually exist here.

BluePolarizer1 votes

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/pbaysGAA-so-this-stupid-guys-goes-ashe-mid-in-game-3-of-my-promos?comment=000000020000

You seem to care quite a bit because you refered to alot of people disagreeing with my comment. I don't see where they disagree. I only see where you disagree.

Most people agree (and by this, I mean, the meta is formed this way, thus by definition most people agree) that middle lane should be a place where you put a champ that is somewhat item independent but very level dependent, so that they can outlevel the rest of the team and then pressure all other lanes with ganks. In teamfights they contribute with utility as well as burst damage to take out enemy squishies and chunk enemy tanks. Thus the things you look for in a mid laner are burst, ganking power (base damage and utility) and waveclear. Item dependent assassins with low utility are put here to specifically counter certain mids that have weak early games. If they fail to snowball though, they are indeed a liability for their team. That's why when Fizz or Talon are behind they're about as useful as a big melee minion since they can't assassinate anyone, can't tank and have little utility; they're only good when ahead. Lucian is a bad mid because he can't assassinate anyone, ever, he has no ganking power, he farms relatively slowly and has no utility when behind. So yes, I'd be far more skeptical of a Lucian mid than at other non-meta mids like a Sona, Janna, Lulu, Jarvan or Hecarim mid, since they all have the characteristics of good mids: waveclear, ganking power and utility.

An ADC contributes to the team with safe, sustained physical damage. However, to output this damage, they usually need a few conditions to be met. First is that the enemies can't just walk away from them since most have no CC. Second is that the ADC needs farm to get his items. Third is that the enemies can't just dive the ADC and kill him/her with burst before that damage can be output. The things that you look for in an ADC are thus safety (through range, mobility or CC), autoattack steroids and item scaling. Lucian is a decent ADC because he's relatively safe with his mobility, has an autoattack steroid and deals good damage with items.

Now why not ADC mid just like an assassin? Well first of all most ADCs don't have burst like assassins do. A full rotation of Lucian's ablities (Q, auto, W, auto, E, auto, R) takes 3 times as long as Talon or Zed's burst which is output in less than 3 seconds. They also don't have the CC or mobility that most assassins do: Talon has significant CC from his Cutthroat and Rake, as well as the fastest burst in the game (can output cutthroat+ 3 autoattack equivalents + rake + ult in less than 1.5 seconds) Zed has guaranteed burst in 3 seconds from 3 autos + Shuriken + Shadow Slash for 60% the enemy HP and ult for the remainder. Second they don't gank very well; they don't have burst or CC to ensure the success of your gank. Thirdly, in late game teamfights your team will have an excess of sustained physical DPS but severely lack burst and/or CC, making that sustained physical DPS meaningless because you can't output it.

Sure, you can try to make champs that don't fit with the lane but keep that in normals or low elo. In higher elo, if you're gonna break the meta, do it intelligently. Don't put an ADC mid because muh LCS outplays. It doesn't even matter if you win the lane as long as the enemy mid isn't a vegetable, and there's always the chance you'll lose lane and become totally useless.

EvilRabbitt1 votes

Idk how. That's a pretty sturdy pick if you know how to Lucian. Lucian, Sivir, Ashe, and Caitlyn are good mid. Jinx is, but only if they pick an immobile mage.

BluePolarizer3 votes

because win lane =/= win game. A 0-5 Brand, Orianna or Ahri still has way more CC and utility than a 5-0 Lucian, and aren't even that far behind on damage due to way stronger base values and magic damage over physical. Unless Lucian got ungodly fed (he didn't), even going even means lose.

InSingedWeTrust9 votes

When you play something off-meta you should expect extra shit when you fail with it. Law of the land.

Zombiephil8 votes

{quoted}

When you play something off-meta you should expect extra shit when you fail with it. Law of the land.

Again, someone who obviously doesn't understand my point. Point was don't flame meta-breakers BEFORE the game even starts.

Tis a nice day2 votes

I think he was saying that even though off-meta doesn't deserve flame BEFORE the game, if it's shown to work poorly DURING the game then it may incite disapproval amongst teammates.

EvilRabbitt2 votes

I agree. I shamed myself attempting to Riven/Yas bot (yas works bot, I should know, he's a standard pick for me). But...we failed. I went ahead and apologized (it was tb) and said never again will I allow duo melee bot unless its Zed or Fizz (which also work). I felt dumb, thought it would work.

Kouga8 votes

Ash Mid was practically the first meta. Pre-Seasons, AD Mids were very common.

Z Statistic6 votes

Look, I say power to the player and all that, but drawing some general conclusion from one game is logically the same thing as thinking vaccines cause autism because your sister's child is autistic.

Zombiephil23 votes

{quoted}

Look, I say power to the player and all that, but drawing some general conclusion from one game is logically the same thing as thinking vaccines cause autism because your sister's child is autistic.

I think a lot of you aren't understanding my point. Should I change the title? My point was don't flame meta-breakers before the game even starts, not Ashe Mid is OP.

Shield Villain6 votes

I think he means that Meta breaking isn't always good. In fact sometimes it's trash. Say AP Ashe Mid, that would be a big misuse of her potential as only her Ult scales off AP. Some Meta Breaks are fine, but you should always expect to explain to your time why something is viable if you're in ranked and are taking something ludicrously silly like AP Ezreal Jungle, or AD Fiddle Sticks Jungle, fuck even AP Sona Jungle.

A while back a lot of things were viable, some still are. But with the way the Meta is, due to items and changes, a lot of things simply aren't.

Just because you can, shouldn't mean you should. You know? Besides that, most people that break Meta end up failing. They saw some stream and now they think they've perfected it themselves. So those people make it hard for others to trust meta breakers.

aaronconlin5 votes

item 3285 item 3100 item 3115 item 3151 item 3089 make AP Ashe pretty fun, sure I wouldn't do it in ranked but I "break the meta" quite often

Gavran6 votes

Try that build on a champion with AP scaling and more than one non-ult ability that does damage, you'll have even more fun. And so will your team.

aaronconlin3 votes

Varus MissFortune KogMaw

TeemoLikeCookies1 votes

Ap varus got nerfed I believe not completely sure but I tried it. Not very good anymore.

aaronconlin2 votes

When? I do it from time to time, still has scaling on his ult and %health scaling on blight stacks on his other abilities and auto attacks

Gavran2 votes

That is the case with MF. Varus is fine afaik and Koggy too.

TenSlashTen3 votes

in low elo people fail to understand its the players that lose and win games. Not champions.

For example. Lee not being banned? Problem to me, yeah. But then it became a serious problem when lee gets 2 kills in top lane and has 600g in under 5 minutes while my top lane is playing a kayle that shouldn't ever try to be aggro against a gap closer top lane before at least level 5/6 area where she has the ranks in abilities and ult to fall back on.

TonyTonyMordecai4 votes

Would you be upset if I went Teemo Jungle in one of your ranked games?

EvilRabbitt2 votes

Considering its viable (Solwolf and Foxdrop did it, I think Anklespankin too) nah it'd be fun.

TonyTonyMordecai2 votes

Omg I've mentioned Solwolf so many times when someone does something he's done before

Gavran4 votes

I've gone Teemo jungle before (that blind is surprisingly legit for clearing safely) and yes I would. His ganks are garbage, his objective control not a whole lot better. It's definitely fun for the Teemo player, and you get to start shrooming strategically way before a laning Teemo does, but it's also bad.

Zmuecat6 votes

You are right Dumb Monster, flaming somebody for an odd pick before they have a chance to prove themselves is rude. However, you could also argue that it's stupid for four other players to just accept every off pick when they, most likely, have experienced what that does.

Most people who 'brake-da-meta!!1!!' also don't understand what they are doing. Sending Ashe into Cho'Gath is fine, so long as she dodges Qs she has the range to farm without taking damage and can poke freely because Cho is melee. However, most people who go out of their way to break the meta do so in a fashion that's... stupid. Like taking an ADC mid against a long range mage, without getting getting MR from runes or masteries. People are going to remember the idiot who fed Ziggs five kills more often than they will remember the Ashe who dominated mid and carried them to sweet victory.

Sona Ping1 votes

I've gotten called out for "trying to foolishly break the meta" by picking Annie mid or Mundo Jungle. Seriously.

Most people who are meta-thumpers also don't understand what they are doing, but just take what they have seen, call it meta, and blindly follow it to make up for the lack of understanding yelling at anyone who doesn't do what they've seen because it's not what you are "supposed to do". It's why you get some feeding baddie taking his frustrations out on you in chat for building Athene's even when against AP opponent instead of Morello because you are "supposed" to build Morello now. Then he probably comes here and complains about how his teammates don't understand the game.

Angry Monster1 votes

first off annie mid is not breaking meta. Mundo is a off meta pick and personally would not want to see him on my team (no cc). Though i would not make a comment since i understand cinderhulk. Mundo is just like shy in the jungle workable but there are better choices.

The real question is why do you think mundo is great? What is he bringing that no one else is? Then share the understanding with your fellow players so they feel better. Though if you are taking mundo cause "Mundo goes where he pleasese" you are just a troll.

Sona Ping1 votes

"first off annie mid is not breaking meta. " That is entirely the point! Those people were calling me out for "taking a support mid lane" in the same way that these same kind of people would call you an idiot or troll for taking Annie as support before then.

Like I said: People who are meta-thumpers don't understand what they are doing, but just take what they have seen, call it meta, and blindly follow it to make up for their own lack of understanding .

WalkingInACircle5 votes

Earlier today I had two guys go top together. They lost the 2v1 while the enemy jungler camped bot.

kile1479 votes

Then their issue is that they suck, not they they went non-meta. I remember losing a game against 2 top because they completely pushed me out of lane and whenever my jungler would try to farm their jungle they wrecked him because I was too weak to help.

FearEngineer1 votes

Going non-meta without the knowledge or skill to give yourself a good chance of making it work is a form of "sucking," no?

kile1473 votes

Yes, but the issue with that is that you shouldn't assume your teammates suck, whereas you can tell if they are making a poor strategic decision.

FearEngineer1 votes

You're more likely to see someone suck playing non-meta.

That's why it isn't meta. Because it's more likely to suck.

kile1472 votes

Not really, plenty of people play the LCS flavor of the month without realizing why it was used and are going to suck with it, despite it being a meta pick.

KMannnnn12 votes

But I mean really though, GG Ezreal Jungle.

EDIT: Was a joke, friends. And I'm not saying Ez jungle couldn't work, I'm just saying he's definitely got one of the worst effort/benefit ratios of any off meta jungle I've heard about. I love meta breaking, but there are definitely some ideas that are clearly not as strong as others.

DrCyanide1 votes

Is that "GG" in the same way Twisted Fate jungle was for UoL vs TSM? Because I've got to pick that up if so.

ChaoticPinecone4 votes

TF has a faster clear, CC for ganks, and ult that can countergank Pantheon ults

ezreal cant do any of those things.

kile1475 votes

Yeah Jinx Jinx jungle is where it's at. So much cc for some sick ganks.

Gavran2 votes

He's going Ez Jungle, what can you do about it?

I can dooooooooooooodge.

MrBuffington2 votes

Check out her rune set up: AD reds, AD quints, AD blues, AD yellows. What a freaking boss. That lvl 1 W + crit auto must have been so cheese, lmao

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