Why are people saying that you can dodge syndra's stun?

Best princess EU··42 votes·12,805 views

It's just impossible in theory; you don't need to know anything else than:

-syndra's E pushes her spheres to 1100 range at 2500 speed, no matter where she puts her spheres. the range of her E is 700, if she puts her Q on max range and then presses E, the spheres will move by 400 at a speed of 2500, in other world thanks to the formula t= d/v , her E will reach you in 400/2500 seconds, (0.16 seconds)

if you're character has 400 ms, he can move at a speed of 400 units/seconds, which is effectively 64 units/0.16 seconds

the only way you can dodge her E is because: -the player is dumb af, and didn't put his Q at max range of his E -the player is dumb af, and didn't put his Q right behind you (and then missed his E)

99 Comments

RiotMeddler42 votes

Couple of notes here:

  • Syndra's spheres get moved at a speed of 1600 once they've been hit by her E. The E itself has a speed of 2500, spheres and units it knocks back do not.
  • Q cast also serves as a warning indicator of incoming stun, with a 0.5s delay between cast and appearance (it doesn't instantly appear and start moving).

That's not an argument by itself that Syndra's stun combo is or isn't appropriately dodgeable, wanted to provide additional information though. Would also suggest that as WoonStruck mentions the W can be a bigger factor in reliable stuns than the straight QE combo.

In terms of Syndra's balance I expect she'll be on our list of 'champs we need to at least consider' in 6.23.

Yasuo OP Kappa2 votes

Just give her Q a cast time, nerf E CD, and R base dmg but increase dmg per ball. Atleast we then we have more windows to engage on her and less ¨press R to 1shot lol¨.

It Hertz When IP16 votes

I'm not a Syndra player (at all), but it seems to me that any serious cast time on her Q would shit on her early lane harass.

Blossom Crown11 votes

Especially when Syndra's Q needs a few levels to start dealing decent damage. Level 1 Q is dismal.

manbearswine9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=paZIU2v2,comment-id=001d00020000,timestamp=2016-10-26T23:33:18.417+0000)

I'm not a Syndra player (at all), but it seems to me that any serious cast time on her Q would shit on her early lane harass.

Syndra's Q does have a cast time, but she can move while casting it.

Snowplosion3 votes

Here q also already has a delay.

RexSaur4 votes

{quoted}

Couple of notes here:

  • Syndra's spheres get moved at a speed of 1600 once they've been hit by her E. The E itself has a speed of 2500, spheres and units it knocks back do not.
  • Q cast also serves as a warning indicator of incoming stun, with a 0.5s delay between cast and appearance (it doesn't instantly appear and start moving).

That's not an argument by itself that Syndra's stun combo is or isn't appropriately dodgeable, wanted to provide additional information though. Would also suggest that as WoonStruck mentions the W can be a bigger factor in reliable stuns than the straight QE combo.

In terms of Syndra's balance I expect she'll be on our list of 'champs we need to at least consider' in 6.23.

"consider"?

Like seriously do you even need to "consider" after seeing her pick and ban rate in both worlds and ranked ladder right now?

Enlegacy6 votes

They are probably considering it since a lot of her counters, Talon, Fizz, Katarina, Zed are probably going to be fairly strong once the update hits, along with the Rylai's changes, if they also nerf her in the same patch, it could be a little much. Not saying she doesn't need nerfs, she definitely does, but we don't know how all of the other stuff that will happen will affect her.

Best princess EU1 votes

are you kidding? all those champs are going to kill people in the time that syndra needs to kill people x2

DrCyanide7 votes

I don't see Syndra killing 2 people in 1 second consistently, do you?

ABlueQuaker2 votes

Now let's compare Syndra's E to, say, Xerath's...

BLYAT moon Akali4 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Blue Quaker,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=paZIU2v2,comment-id=001d0006,timestamp=2016-10-27T06:48:17.740+0000)

Now let's compare Syndra's E to, say, Xerath's...

xerath e is way easier to land for me.

WoonStruck29 votes

Okay, anybody that actually knows how to play Syndra knows that you set up your stun with W.

If Syndra sets it up with W, its literally impossible to dodge.


Q->E isn't a big deal. Move perpendicular to her and cast location for the orb.

W->E is a big deal. Especially once she can carry more than one orb. She can put that orb anywhere from any angle, heavily slowing at the same time. Even if you dodge W, you're getting smacked with that stun. Not to mention how you can cast W to lead their movement, then pop a Q into stun.

A decent Syndra player doesn't even have to be good at landing skillshots unless they're going for absolute max-range stuns. Her stun is free.

Shifune21 votes

Because Syndra's stun has always been that way and no one was complaining about it. No one was saying Syndra's stun was OP, or that Syndra herself was OP, until she got played at worlds.

It's still amazing what worlds can do to champions. Syndra has been flying by with her negative winrates since last season. No one cared about Syndra. But as soon as she is picked in worlds, the boards is flooded with "Nerf Syndra," "Syndra OP," "Sydnra stun impossible to dodge," etc.

Like seriously? Get outta here with that BS. Where were all of you when Syndra was doing the EXACT SAME THING last season and earlier this season? All the Mage update did was make her ball management easier, but any half-decent Syndra player could do that easily way before then.

Mecha Incognito2 votes

I get that a lot of people do just cry a lot like that, but just because she wasn't played as often doesn't mean she wasn't always strong.

You forget a couple of things, too. One, her mage update, whilst it seems small, was pretty good. Getting to move 3 spheres at any time to set up a really wide stun (which before hand would require some careful preparation) is a big buff. On top of that, she wasn't played a lot because she used to be quite buggy, which they sorted out.

There are also some champions that make people angry whenever they become prominent - one of those is Syndra. Mostly because she has a great aoe stun on top of one of the biggest single target nukes. That isn't a skill shot. I'm sure you can see how that irritates people.

Vistha Kai9 votes

Syndra has been flying by with her negative winrates since last season.

Since her release, with occassional one week-long spikes to 50%.

Ahristocats16 votes

cause they want their freelo to not be nerfed of course skillshots travel like in 1 second, meanwhile syndra's E travels in 0.16 seconds, that's good why do you need counterplay?

Vistha Kai8 votes

skillshots travel like in 1 second

Yes, every skillshot in the game travels for one second, except Syndra's E.

MunchCrunchLunch11 votes

syndra stun can be made undodgable. and its a "feature" according to riot. it isn't a bug. but people are idiots.

its basically like Lux E. you can't dodge it. but the user can miss it.

Celenvala1 votes

What you are referring to is actually based on how the W works. It goes out in "waves," in the example of eq, the first knocking back champs, the second knocking back sphere's; however, it is still fundamentally slower than most other combo's on Syndra. If you go back to the thread about this on reddit Overlord Forte actually did a really nice write-up on how the combo actually works.

ZT Xperimentor10 votes

The sphere has a smaller hitbox than most champions; walk perpendicular to it's path, not directly away from it.

Harry Dresden9 votes

You didn't take into account the time it takes for the sphere to actually hit the ground. You can see it coming.

DarkRitual9 votes

It's a skillshot. It can be dodged.

I Q2 votes

It can be missed, but in most situations it can not be dodged.

DarkRitual6 votes

Difficult to dodge, yes. Undodgeable no. Usually you get lucky with random movements and them failing predictionz. Other times you preemp it and make them miss (I would still consider that a dodge). Other times you are full movespeed Janna with three Cloud drakes and Elder buff with Talisman active on.

I Q2 votes

"Failing Predictionz" is missing. The janna thing is specific to one champion. That is like saying "Its okay if the skill oneshots anyone because yasuo windwall can stop it"

DarkRitual4 votes

The last part was more of a joke. Forcing someone to miss a skillshot is as much of dodging as failing a prediction, at least how I see things.

Overlord Forte9 votes

This entire topic is predicated on the enemy being stunned possessing no capacity to predict, juke, or otherwise fakeout the Syndra player. Turns out if you're not moving before a gun fires, you can't dodge the bullet.

Syndra's stun combo (Q+E) is mechanically slow to activate compared to some others (Morgana Q, Viktor E, and similar skillshots) because it relies on two separate abilities firing together. If sphere are already on the ground, it is at comparable speed, but relies on a physical object that must have a line draw between Syndra, her sphere, and her target.

W's repositioning of spheres is a powerful mix up tool, but that too is mechanically slow. Long range W's take around a second of flight time before they can be launched for a stun, not only broadcasting position but also giving generous room to escape to a manuevering enemy. Simply running away in a straight line, often a bad idea, is perfectly feasible here because ... Syndra cannot long range snipe people with W. The skill is too slow for that, specifically. In melee combat where this combo is the strongest, however, it gives Syndra a significant secondary tool in protecting herself.

I do agree the new W passive, which allows multi-sphere throws, is too powerful. It overloads her stun combo by removing the necessity of sphere management and positioning, which intrinsically slowed that combo down a fair bit. There's no way to fix that except removing multi-sphere throws as a passive, franky.

Otherwise, for all useful purposes done by skilled Syndra players, her stun combos are mostly trap based. She dictates an area of control and then half relies on enemies screwing up. The other half is forcing her presence closer, which then directly allows for the first half of this equation to work. Pro-active behavior with her stun, compared to something like Morgana, is difficult to do against enemies who are prepared to deal with it.

Flash comboing, and the enemy flashing to sidestep the stun, for instance, would be a near loss situation unless some other factors overrode it.

Bârd9 votes

Sorry, but that is just dumb.

She has to line you up with a sphere (significant delay), then cast the knockback (obvious cast animation).

The delay is significant enough that it is a fairly hard skillshot.

You don't need to be able to outrun a projectile to dodge it. That is the single worst way to try and dodge a skillshot.

You dodge it by either messing up her aim or using mobility to avoid the projectile, as with every other skillshot in the game.

Just because you don't know how to dodge something, doesn't mean it is completely impossible to dodge.

Not a single skillshot in the game can't be dodged. Even Tibbers or Unstoppable Force can be beat with a well timed flash.

Eedat8 votes

For comparison, Morgana bind moves at 1200. Syndra's stun moves over double that and can originate closer to the enemy to start.

ACENOX5 votes

but it's k, according to board you can predict where the bullet will spawn and then you can dodge it because every champions have master yi movement speed XD

G4LLOWSC4L1BR4TR7 votes

You can juke it or predict it and flash.

I Q6 votes

Why do I need to flash to dodge a skill on a 12 second CD with no CDR?

WacingTheFind1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shenpai Ekko,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=paZIU2v2,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-10-26T16:50:54.042+0000)

Why do I need to flash to dodge a skill on a 12 second CD with no CDR?

To avoid what comes after the stun.

Tip: it starts with a D and ends in eath

Blossom Crown3 votes

Players are too busy flashing Syndra's ultimate rather than what comes before it...

LordofEntropy7 votes

If you're dodging projectiles by running in a straight line away from said projectile after it's been fired, you're doing it wrong. The possible angles Syndra can hit you with are telegraphed and you should be moving perpendicular to possible sphere paths to avoid getting stunned. That changes the math.

I Q2 votes

No.

You CAN NOT dodge her E if she has more then 3 orbs in it, which is perfectly possible. What if you were exhausted? What if she had rylais? What if she Wed then E? All of these scenarios CHANGE THE MATH, but it still isn't possible.

DarkSunSovereign2 votes

Then what needs to be nerfed/removed is the W multi-throw, not the E cast time/speed.

Syndra main BTW.

BLYAT moon Akali7 votes

it doesn't even go off half of the time because e triggers before q spawns the ball if you do it too quickly. that champ is so slow. either that or e seems to sometimes cancel q. even if it works correctly, casting q delays your stun.

most skillshot dodges are random erratic movement or prediction dodges anyway. you can observe that if you play a match of aram. i don't actively dodge by reacting to a skillshot in aram most of the time. i bait, predict and move unpredictably.

so what keeps you from walking up to 1100 range to syndra and then making a sharp turn, dodging the potential hit as she starts to move the fingers?

essentially, your calculations are irrelevant in practice.

Mr Carbon6 votes

This is too smart for them. They are blinded by numbers.

I Q7 votes

"that champ is so slow" One of the only champions that can cast abilities while moving

BLYAT moon Akali4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shenpai Ekko,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=paZIU2v2,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2016-10-26T16:53:05.957+0000)

"that champ is so slow" One of the only champions that can cast abilities while moving

she cannot cast e while moving, it has a cast time. q and w are delayed abilities. a syndra that has not set up her playing field can only stun you if she casts 2 consecutive delayed abilities. holding an object with w is a clear indicator for you that she might stun you next. a ball lying in front of you is another clear indicator that a stun might follow up. as meddler said, the flying objects actually travel at 1600 units/s, not 2500. she is a slow and awkward skillshot champion unless you are good with her, sitting at < 50% winrate in plat+. please.

Keti4 votes

Because you can

Syndratastic4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sanji fanboy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=paZIU2v2,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-26T15:26:15.729+0000)

It&#039;s just impossible in theory; you don&#039;t need to know anything else than:

-syndra&#039;s E pushes her spheres to 1100 range at 2500 speed, no matter where she puts her spheres. the range of her E is 700, if she puts her Q on max range and then presses E, the spheres will move by 400 at a speed of 2500, in other world thanks to the formula t= d/v , her E will reach you in 400/2500 seconds, (0.16 seconds)

if you&#039;re character has 400 ms, he can move at a speed of 400 units/seconds, which is effectively 64 units/0.16 seconds

the only way you can dodge her E is because: -the player is dumb af, and didn&#039;t put his Q at max range of his E -the player is dumb af, and didn&#039;t put his Q right behind you (and then missed his E)

Are you serious with your post? Because it seems like you are one of those worlds syndrom affected people. Whenever a Pro player picks up a champion that isn´t played much in the past suddenly has something that is overpowered or not dodgeable or to strong? What is it with these random calls for nerfs when a champion has been doing not too hot and not too bad the past years?

You obviously don´t know hot to play against her (since there are plenty champions and items to stop her burst drastically / avoid it) so you call for nerfs, pitiful.

k wìx3 votes

Same with Jayce

Vegathron3 votes

this post assumes you basically stand still until the instance the skillshot is fired and THEN you are allowed to start dodging. i feel like the juke argument is valid point and dont forget the syndra's player ALSO has reaction time of "ok it will hit NOW i better use it". only a bot will fire it the very instance it will hit everyone else is either predicting a path you are taking (which you then can try to counter predict where they will aim and not walk there) or there at least is a delay of them casting it, or both.

not saying its super easy to dodge but it can be pretty tricky but its not as bad as you are making it out to be.

KoKoboto2 votes

use a dash to dodge it

Papa Slothy2 votes

yea....that is a bit of a dumb thing to say

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