I love how an AD champion can rush Hexdrinker becoming unkillable and...

Nausicäa ·Oct 3, 2018·51 votes·13,067 views

yet still have enough damage to kill me in a single rotation.

Meanwhile I build and still pretty much die instantly anyway.

Fair.

77 Comments

Warlord RhinarkOct 3, 201820 votes

Nullifying Orb should be Adaptive.

Chembaron YamadaOct 3, 20188 votes

They considered doing this, but it made it just a mandatory pick on basically anyone. So they decided against it.

BestealOct 3, 20185 votes

I guess they could just remove it.

Warlord RhinarkOct 3, 201814 votes

{quoted}

They considered doing this, but it made it just a mandatory pick on basically anyone. So they decided against it.

Gee, I wonder why a shield, which helps against the rampant damage in the game, is something everyone would pick.

I wonder why.

LTK KoRoOct 3, 20185 votes

Actually a piss-poor shield would be better in low damage meta than high damage. I don't think that 120 or whatever is the value shield would save you against burst mage, but for sure it would save you against Sejuani or Zac damage.

But adaptive shield in a mediocre rune tier (a lot of champions doesn't want nimbus cloak, and doesn't need manaflow band) would be kind of mandatory.

TehNACHOOct 3, 20183 votes

It actually helps against Burst Mid Laners in particular, who win lane on margins especially early on.

Part of the game is to stop the snowball from starting in the first place, after all.

LTK KoRoOct 3, 20181 votes

It kind of helps, but mostly due to the "SURPRISE" part. I have seen multiple Lux blow up ults and see their target run with 50 hp after the shield. After that, most of them adapt and just bring target lower before ulting. A lot of burst mages are able to do that.

TehNACHOOct 4, 20181 votes

That's the point.

Again, especially in the transition from early to midgame, burst champions tend to win by slim margins. Even a minor hiccup like that means a lot depending on the timing and pacing of the game.

Hexmelt Oct 4, 20181 votes

It probably wouldn't synergize as well as a secondary though no? I just doubt it'd be mandatory.

PoskeOct 3, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pXEEmPUO,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-10-03T11:51:13.782+0000)

Nullifying Orb should be Adaptive.

So essentially a must run?

ThefrostyvikingOct 3, 20183 votes

Something kinda broken, yes.

Even if its limited now its still kind of a backhanded blow towards the AP users.

Warlord RhinarkOct 3, 20183 votes

{quoted}

So essentially a must run?

It wouldn't need to be a must run if the damage wasn't so fucking high.

MalakOct 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

So essentially a must run?

if making it adaptive makes it a must run then it's too strong vs AP right now..don't you agree?

PoskeOct 5, 20181 votes

{quoted}

if making it adaptive makes it a must run then it's too strong vs AP right now..don't you agree?

I agree people like myself just dont bother changing runes for specific matchups

Which is Why I doubt new rune armor / mr / hp per level system ll be well accepted

Drakath2002Oct 3, 201814 votes

this is true and sad......

Edge of DaybreakOct 3, 201815 votes

Sadly assassin players wish this was true but unfortunately when reality kicks in mages have more or less removed ad mids from the game in pro and hexdrinker hasnt been touched in a long time.

What's crazy about this hexdrinker makes you immortal logic is if it was actually believed by ap players and not used to circlejerk for upvotes wouldn't they build hexdrinker on mages against other mages? After all you guys are claiming it makes you unkillable.

InfernapeOct 3, 20189 votes

Why would they? They scale off AP not AD. The only champions that can get away with doing so are Akali, Kayle and Kat because they all have good AD scaling.

Edge of DaybreakOct 3, 201815 votes

They are claiming it makes you immune to magic damage. Why wouldn’t you buy that on a mage in a mage vs mage matchup? Scaling wouldn’t matter if you literally cant kill me right? Seeing as people genuinely believe this is true there should be no problem

shockprimexOct 3, 201818 votes

I once rushed item 3155 on Azir and the enemy Lux never killed me even though they kept hitting their entire combo.

AirKingNeoOct 3, 20181 votes

wow you must suck if Lux can land her entire combo on you, considering it is very easy to dodge.

SociaI JusticeOct 3, 20183 votes

why dodge when you can just block :^)

Velzard of KozOct 3, 20181 votes

OP makes in this case point in both makes you immune to being shut down quickly while still giving you damage to shut down someone quickly. In this case Mages would still benefit only from one of the two.

Additionally, ADs will still have the upper hand in the fact they benefit from one of the component items better. Hexdrinker may give you both AD and MR, but Longsword only gives AD. In case of Manaless champ who wants Lichbane, you would also feel better about buying directly Sheen rather than Crystal into Sheen. Mana champs would have upper hand in being able to use the gold better in utilizing the Crystal before upgrading.

Edge of DaybreakOct 3, 20183 votes

Hex isn't giving you that much damage it's 25 ad however it does not make you immune to being shut down that's not a thing. I'm not seeing what the later half has to do with anything as no part of armguard or hex is wasted in the matchup regardless of if you are manaless or not.

Pika FoxOct 3, 20185 votes

Doesnt matter, hex is cheap, and if its making you unkillable as is claimed ittd be worth the investment.

AirKingNeoOct 3, 20181 votes

Kayle with Hexdrinker?

You're joking.

AlzonOct 3, 201810 votes

I think the argument is that “AD mids can rush Hexdrinker while having no mana problems, but mages can’t rush Seeker’s without mana problems. Mages then have to choose between getting shoved under tower and getting poked down until a dive, or waveclearing and getting 100-0’d.”

Edge of DaybreakOct 3, 20187 votes

Id agree but we can both see thats not what op is saying the post is just about hex making you unkillable which is false in every sense of the word. Mages dont just roll over and die because they went seeker most of them still clear just fine as for the getting poked / dying part thats not an item issue thats a player one. No amount of mana or armor will save you if you mismanage mana, eat harass into an all in and play it wrong.

AirKingNeoOct 3, 20183 votes

how are assassins outpushing mages?

WAZZZUP500Oct 3, 20184 votes

Yes because 90% of the playerbase is in pro and not some where between bronze 5 and gold 1. And yeah, of course i build hexdrinker on xerath; who doesn't want the extremely useful AD on a champ that has no scalings for it?

Edge of DaybreakOct 3, 20183 votes

Yeah but items work the same for 100% of the playerbase. If hex doesnt make you immune to death vs ap in challenger it doesnt suddenly do that at any point from there to bronze 5. I would hope you can see why you would build an item that makes you "unkillable" in a mage vs mage matchup. Scaling literally wouldn't matter if one of you couldn't die.

WAZZZUP500Oct 10, 20181 votes

I'm talking about being to outplay the item. It has a cooldown, only stays up for so long, and really doesn't make you "unkillable". you don't build gold inefficient items. You never should, and if you're relying on hex in a matchup, you're gonna lose due to either a lack of stats, or you eventually have to sell it for other items.

On a different note, balance hex by reducing the time that the shield lasts, or maybe making it have a small delay before it goes off. On the other hand, you could buff the armguard, but it's already one of the most gold-efficient items in the game.

Drakath2002Oct 3, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Sadly assassin players wish this was true but unfortunately when reality kicks in mages have more or less removed ad mids from the game in pro and hexdrinker hasnt been touched in a long time.

What's crazy about this hexdrinker makes you immortal logic is if it was actually believed by ap players and not used to circlejerk for upvotes wouldn't they build hexdrinker on mages against other mages? After all you guys are claiming it makes you unkillable.

Pro play values team synergy/teamfight power/CC over snowballing with a champion that's jack squat useless if they fall behind

Assassins could oneshot tanks and Mages can be gutted and you'll still see pro play use Mages cause they are more useful and chalk full utility in teamfights

That said

1 vs 1 situation

Assassin : Rush Hexdrinker -> lethality -> murcery threads

Mage : Armguard rush -> mana item (90% of the time gonna be lost chapter which isn't cheap and has already been delayed) -> ninja tabis

The assassin oneshots the Mage and survives because Hexdrinker is BS and makes them unkillable by Mages

How you may ask?

Cause it's passive is the one thing stopping us from one shotting an assassin before they one shot us

Edge of DaybreakOct 3, 20183 votes

I don't get why you are telling me this I already know it I play assassins.

Okay so I am going to repeat the same thing again. If hexdrinker makes you unkillable to mages why wouldn't you build it on mages vs mages? You guys can't make a claim like that and then act like it doesn't make sense in reality. Put your money where your mouth is.

As for the mage vs assassin thing going to repeat another thing. "Mages dont just roll over and die because they went seeker most of them still clear just fine as for the getting poked / dying part thats not an item issue thats a player one. No amount of mana or armor will save you if you mismanage mana, eat harass into an all in and play it wrong."

GayFluffyUnicornOct 3, 20183 votes

No proplay plays anything that is busted. If it's grasp yasuo they play it. If its full ap bard mid they play it. IT doesnt matter. Just because western teams tend to play the same old shit doesnt mean it's still the best or most viable strategy.

Ahri InariOct 3, 201812 votes

Starting with 19 base armor also suck. We got hp scaling rune compasation because AP vs AP was the most common.

My Waifu VanillaOct 4, 20181 votes

And it still is the most common so I don't really see the point of this comment emphasizing "was" the most common when it still very much is the case.

Ahri InariOct 4, 20181 votes

Because in Season 7 when you faced a AP vs AD matchup you were running armor rune instead of hp to make up with the very low base armor. It's the main reason why early season 8 /Pre season every AD was able to 100-0 AP at lvl 2/3.

Compasating a champion assuming a spefific role and matchup was wrong. For example Brand got the "Mid lane standard AP vs AP" compasation when he is mostly played support and scale off pen rather than AP. This is why he got buffed.

Every champion with no base armor compensation were no longer viable as jungler. Old rune gave more adaptation power to the player.

My Waifu VanillaOct 4, 20182 votes

Well it's a good thing they have already confirmed to be going back to the "player choice" set up anyway. You can get your defensive stats no matter what and even take the likes of boneplating chrysalis on mages next season and have zero drawbacks to it.

Also, I'd be careful with the terms "every champion" since there are champions that received zero armor compensations that are doing just fine as junglers. Taliyah is still a very viable jungler after her "mini rework" in mid season (which didn't change her armor from 20 like it has been for like 2 years almost). Are a majority of junglers without higher armor not viable? Sure. But I think it is a stretch to say they were viable to begin with. Someone like Karthus was not a good jungler before season 8 and he isn't a very good one after. The non-viables just became more non-viable. Same could be said for any other weird mage pick in the jungle like Malz or what have you. Mage junglers have their own inherent problems with jungling that a mere 8 more armor isn't going to solve because it still takes you 900 years to kill the camps since you are inherently burst oriented and lack mobility so not only does your clear suck, but your ganks are also lackluster at best.

What I am getting it is that even if Lux started the game with 35 armor if she took smite (as to not push her too far mid lane) she still wouldn't be a viable jungler. You could take less damage, but you are still going to be on your 3rd camp while Eve is already level 3 ganking a lane or Graves has taken both scuttles and almost full cleared.

CIaymanOct 3, 201811 votes

AD champions don't become "unkillable" after building hexdrinker.

boricCentaur1Oct 3, 201810 votes

[deleted]

ThefrostyvikingOct 3, 20185 votes

In diamond midlane for korea the most popular midlaners are .......yasou and Irelia.

Then mages as usual up to spots 9 and 10 where talon and aatrox sit.....

There are 2 AD assassins in the entire gamedesigned to lane, talon and Zed.......talon is in the top 10 and Zed is at 13.

Then Yasou and irelia designed to beat ranged both taking the top spots for pickrate as well as 3rd and 4th spots for banrate, worth mentioning that Talon is the 7th most banned and Zed the 10th.

And this against a competition of how many mages?

Evidently AD isnt so bad as some would like to have others believe x)

boricCentaur1Oct 3, 20185 votes

{quoted}

In diamond midlane for korea the most popular midlaners are .......yasou and Irelia.

Then mages as usual up to spots 9 and 10 where talon and aatrox sit.....

There are 2 AD assassins in the entire gamedesigned to lane, talon and Zed.......talon is in the top 10 and Zed is at 13.

Then Yasou and irelia designed to beat ranged both taking the top spots for pickrate as well as 3rd and 4th spots for banrate, worth mentioning that Talon is the 7th most banned and Zed the 10th.

And this against a competition of how many mages?

Evidently AD isnt so bad as some would like to have others believe x)

My point was about hexdrinker not ad and if you look at the people playing yas,irelia, aatrox, talon they dont build it at all.

ThefrostyvikingOct 3, 20184 votes

And this a cause for concern all on its own isnt it?

If the AD laners are so strong that they just flat out dont need any extra magic resist for a long time while AP laners are borderline forced to get at least seekers to not die in a single rotation then isnt it kinda unbalanced?

SSW TalonOct 3, 20183 votes

Seekers also isn't mandatory vs those AD mids. The item, just like Hexdrinker, sets you behind in damage if you rush it, which is fine. Just like it's fine that Hex sets you slightly down in damage for the res+shield.

ThefrostyvikingOct 3, 20183 votes

Most mages cant actually survive a talon or a zed jumping on them without seeker+barrier in my experience, but assassins likewise dont like a mages full rotation to the face without MR even if the mages only has lost chapter.

So what does it boil down to? Just the fact that assassins are stronger at lvl 6 more often than not which forces mages that havent managed to kill the assassin before then to either go defensive or play very passively to avoid exploding.

That and that especially in soloq assassins have a relatively good chance at roaming for a lead which will make any mage quite depressed if it works.

AirKingNeoOct 3, 20183 votes

well mages do outscale assassins, so it makes sense assassins are better early game

ThefrostyvikingOct 3, 20181 votes

Yeah, people probably just feel bad right about now because many games end quickly which makes scaling champs in general feel worse, and while mages arent quite so weak early compared to say Seju or kog there are still some similarity in the pattern of being weaker early and much stronger later.

Which naturally gets smacked around hard by the assassins, and i´d honestly think it was weird if people enjoyed being beaten silly.

So to put it simply things just boils down to it feeling bad to be beaten and not getting a chance to properly hit back.