Sunfire Cape / Cinderhulk Scale with AP?

AHarmlessTaco·Apr 7, 2019·8 votes·8,474 views

How troublesome would it be if Immolate, the damaging aura found on Sunfire Cape and Cinderhulk, had an AP ratio? I think it might be a bit of a boon to champions that have AP ratios and perform as bruisers, but have a hard time justifying buying AP. Would mages start picking up Sunfire Cape? Would champions like Amumu and Maokai deal too much damage? Would it be useless / a non-factor? I'm just looking at ideas for AP bruiser itemization and its sorta tough.

43 Comments

Titanium70Apr 7, 201913 votes

Wouldn't really make any sense...

With HP.. or size... Yeah.. but AP? 9 out of 10 Bami useres dont even build that stat. ^^'

Pendergast891Apr 7, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn't really make any sense...

With HP.. or size... Yeah.. but AP? 9 out of 10 Bami useres dont even build that stat. ^^'

but just imagine a item 3068 item 3151 item 3116 on Chogath

AHarmlessTacoApr 7, 20191 votes

Im not saying it would be super helpful, but it would at least be a little nudge for up-close people who want Rylais or Liandry's but have a hard time using the AP.

Anu3isIIApr 7, 20192 votes

It isn't about current Bami users, it is about expanding the range of users.

If people currently build Bami without any AP, then this change wouldn't affect them while some AP champions may start building it.

RagnaveilApr 7, 20192 votes

Issue is we dont want mini anivias. Bambi + Liandry on paper with this change just looks like a godly waveclear combo when paired with ludens.

Anu3isIIApr 8, 20191 votes

First, Bami + Liandry will never be safe way to waveclear. They still have to stay in the middle of minions to waveclear, which later in the game (when people start grouping) would be viable only for splitpushing. Until then, the AP ratio has minimal effect.

Second, why is everyone mentioning item 3151 item 3116 ? Does no one know that Bami's Passive does NOT proc spell effects? People would still have to spam spells in order to maintain the debuffs on opponents/waveclear.

Third, if it really is that big of a problem, Riot can easily tweak the AP Ratio or make it work only vs Champions, so that Bami's waveclear is left unchanged.

Rathar DashingApr 8, 20191 votes

Most champions who can use AP and Sunfire, like Mundo and Amumu, have spammable/toggle spells that do in fact apply those items. Allowing champs like Mundo to just build Liandries+Sunfire+Abyssal and run around tanking infinite damage while melting enemies with aura damage is not exactly a fair gameplay pattern.

AHarmlessTacoApr 8, 20192 votes

Melting to an aura sure as hell beats getting blown up in 1 combo by Riven tho.

kingDeDeDariusApr 8, 20191 votes

Point taken lol. Though I don't think AP is the proper stat. Perhaps encouraging more tanky builds by making it scale off from a combo of magic resist, armor, and HP would be more useful. This way it would help full tanks the most, but give a boon to bruisers that also build a decent amount of these stats. Or it could do more damage to enemy champs affected by slows/stuns/roots. Like maybe 200% damage per tick against cc impaired enemies. This would also benefit our cc tanks more, but would give viability to many bruisers. Honestly there are so many directions that could be taken to make the item better

AHarmlessTacoApr 8, 20191 votes

The reason I went with AP scaling is that AD bruiser itemization is in a LOT better of a spot with items like Black Cleaver, Steraks, Maw, Titanic Hydra....... Whereas most AP bruisers/tanks have ROA as the only realistic AP purchase because there just isnt enough benefit for them to build Liandrys or Rylais or Banshee's Veil. I'm not really wanting Sunfire Cape to be a better item overall, I just think that AP Bruisers should have the option to spec into AP and feel a little bit better about themselves than they do now, without giving them burst that would be abused.

KilanostApr 7, 20191 votes

Deleted....not meant as a reply

LovelleApr 8, 20193 votes

That sounds like a terrible idea. I could understand health scaling, but most of the champions that build it don't need the AP. It would be a wasted stat on an item that's not exactly that strong to begin with.

AHarmlessTacoApr 8, 20191 votes

There wouldn't be any wasted stats though, all Im talking about is adding an AP ratio to the burn. The AP champions that build Sunfire Cape / Cinderhulk aren't exactly doing great. It more or less just to help their clear speed a little bit if they got an AP item like Liandry's and the rest tank.

LovelleApr 8, 20191 votes

{quoted}

There wouldn't be any wasted stats though, all Im talking about is adding an AP ratio to the burn. The AP champions that build Sunfire Cape / Cinderhulk aren't exactly doing great. It more or less just to help their clear speed a little bit if they got an AP item like Liandry's and the rest tank.

What AP champion even builds Cinderhulk aside from Gragas and the elusive jungle Cho'gath?

AHarmlessTacoApr 8, 20191 votes

Amumu Chogath Gragas Maokai Malphite Nautilus Rammus Nunu Sejuani Zac Ivern Galio Jax Shyvana maybe? Diana once they finally figure out what to do with her if she wants to go tanky? Alistar if jungle cow ever becomes a thing?

I mean, there are a lot of champions to work with but they all struggle right now a bit, which is why Im trying to look at oddball things that could be neat.

LovelleApr 9, 20191 votes

{quoted}

maybe? once they finally figure out what to do with her if she wants to go tanky? if jungle cow ever becomes a thing?

I mean, there are a lot of champions to work with but they all struggle right now a bit, which is why Im trying to look at oddball things that could be neat.

They're struggling because defensive itemization/runes have practically no real scaling. This means past the 20 minute mark they can't effectively mitigate damage unless they secured an early lead. Health and resistances alone aren't enough to mitigate all the %hp damage, true damage, penetration, and %based damage amplifiers from precision and domination. Riot's current solution to balance is just to add more damage to everything instead of improving defensive options.

AHarmlessTacoApr 9, 20191 votes

I agree, but one could argue that improvements to clear times might allow these champions to invest more in defenses later on and still output relevant damage as to not be ignored. Damage creep is certainly a thing, but I would rather see something like this than buffs to upfront damage or innate champion scaling. The overall sentiment is there though, and I do think that damage overall is too high and that defensive items are rather lacking.

KilanostApr 7, 20192 votes

Amumu YAS!

AHarmlessTacoApr 8, 20191 votes

Yasuo ?

GrReaper96Apr 7, 20192 votes

I say rather than change Sunfire just add a new Cinderhulk item

item 3694 MOONSHADOW CLOAK

item 3191 + item 3751 + recipe

40 AP 40 ARMOR 400 HEALTH

UNIQUE Passive - Immolate: Deals 12 (+1 per level) (+10% AP) magic damage per second to nearby enemies. Deals 50% bonus magic damage to minions and monsters

AHarmlessTacoApr 8, 20191 votes

They are trying to clean up the shop so I doubt theyd want a 3rd immolate item. Tacking on an AP ratio to Sunfire would accomplish the same thing more or less considering 40 AP isnt very much on anyone and any more would cause the wrong people to start buying it. Fizz/Ekko for example

Jimmy RustlesApr 7, 20191 votes

1.5k Ap veigar with Sunfire just burning everyone around him for hundreds of damage

AHarmlessTacoApr 7, 20194 votes

I mean, if he's got 1.5k AP I think sunfire cape is the least of your worries. XD

kingDeDeDariusApr 8, 20191 votes

Lol, I could maybe see that being an issue, except it otherwise is just a terrible item choice for him. But yeah, I don't think AP scaling is the way to go with that item either

Meteora707Apr 7, 20191 votes

the burning man build would finally be good

AHarmlessTacoApr 7, 20191 votes

Lol Idk about GOOOOOD perse, but hey, the more fire the merrier, right?

Dante ValentineApr 7, 20191 votes

It could help the ap bruiser champs they've always struggled with like Diana who always ends up as an assassin who has a shield and a hard cc like what is... core assassin kit material.

AHarmlessTacoApr 8, 20191 votes

Yeah Im still not sure where they are going to go with her..... IMO all they really need to do is add health scaling to her shield and reduce the AP ratios on her Q and R so that she is encouraged to QR AA AA AA QR AA AA AA QR instead of just QRR dead. If they added a 1-2 second CD reduction on her shield for everytime Moonsilver Blade was proc'ed, she would be far more durable in fights.

SSmotzerApr 7, 20191 votes

What about building magic penetration?

It increases the damage of immolate.

item 3001 item 3165 item 3020 item 3135 item 3124 Then item 3751

AHarmlessTacoApr 8, 20191 votes

Uh, most AP bruisers can't afford to get Void or Morello or Sorcerer's. The idea was to sorta help their clear speeds and magic penetration is weak against monsters and minions.

SSmotzerApr 8, 20191 votes

Well, then how about paring the magic pen with item 3075 instead of Morello.

AHarmlessTacoApr 8, 20191 votes

? wut

SSmotzerApr 8, 20191 votes

Cause the magic pen would also increase the damage dealt by thornmail.

AHarmlessTacoApr 8, 20191 votes

Yes, magic penetration affects Immolate, Thornmail, Liandry's Torment, and the like, but it is very hard for Immolate users to purchase magic penetration because it impacts their durability too much for the price. If there were a way to sneak penetration in such a way that it wouldn't be abused by mages and assassins, it would be quite helpful, but going out of your way to purchase penetration to increase fairly small amounts of damage usually isn't beneficial in the long run.

AYuumiIsFineTooApr 7, 20191 votes

You want AP rammus to be meta? You'd just need to get liandry's and cinderhulk on him, R and instant win

AHarmlessTacoApr 8, 20191 votes

I mean, if Rammus is getting Cinderhulk instead of Runic Echoes then he's already lost all the burst that makes AP rammus scary. Not to mention, even with all that stuff, you're going to die a lot more slowly than you do to a lot of other junglers.

KlydeFrogApr 7, 20191 votes

No give cinderhulk cdr. Issue solved

AHarmlessTacoApr 8, 20191 votes

I mean, tanks do like CDR so it would make sense, but idk if that would solve the issue or not.

KlydeFrogApr 8, 20191 votes

Ad jungle item has cdr, ap jungle item has cdr . Lol

Rathar DashingApr 8, 20191 votes

DrMundo Galio Jax Sylas among others would abuse this too well. Would have incredible synergy with item 3151 / item 3001

AHarmlessTacoApr 8, 20191 votes

While the synergy would be there, I think encouraging slow burn tanky stuff beats encouraging high burst on everyone. Frankly I don't see Jax wanting Liandrys or Abyssal. Sylas would be a lot less bursty with Sunfire.... Mundo needs a rework so Idk sorta kinda maybe, and Galio uhhhhhhhh again I dont really think it'd be that bad to deal with.... herm

BobaFlautistApr 8, 20191 votes

I think it would be far more appropriate to give it a (small) percentage health ratio.

AHarmlessTacoApr 8, 20191 votes

My goal was to try to aim it at AP tanks/bruisers who opt to buy some AP instead of just generically making it deal more damage. AD bruisers are all in a pretty decent spot.