Its kind of annoying that a lot of juggernauts are better off going full damage

Moody P·Mar 2, 2019·35 votes·11,336 views

Given how tank items have become extraordinarily bad unless you have a means of multiplying their defenses (like Garen, Nasus) or just don't have any other real build options (Volibear, Trundle) a lot of juggernauts have decided that the best way to beat damage is just to match it. Just having the tankiness isn't good enough; if you don't scale directly with it then there's no point in buying them.

Shyvana runs full AP and cheeses with RE.

Mordekaiser is full AP.

Yorick mains on the reddit and discord tell me to just keep building AD.

Illaoi will almost always keep stacking AD.

Aatrox has been full AD since the rework and I'm not even sure why he is considered a juggernaut when he adopts an assassin play style.

Urgot's ability to actually survive fights has been dumpsters and his community has been looking for damaged focused builds with Muramana.

Considering their lack of mobility I think we should be concerned that almost half of the juggernauts are increasingly straying away from being juggernauts and moving into skirmisher-like or completely glass cannon builds with only enough tankiness that they can get their damage out and kill you faster.

Can we do something about this?

51 Comments

heroikcMar 2, 201924 votes

Welcome to damage meta...

LovelleMar 2, 20199 votes

Black Cleaver or Trinity Force or Titanic Hydra into Steraks.

That's pretty much the only reliable build path a jugg has if they want to not be useless. Don't even worry about what comes after those two items, as the game is most likely over by that point.

Steraks in particular is probably one of the best defensive items in the game right now.

Dasdi96Mar 2, 20196 votes

That's what happens when we have defensive items have low gold efficiency and even worse effective efficiency. Tank items effective efficiency is 40-70% depending on how much anti tank the opponent has. This means tanks are always playing a losing battle.

Moody PMar 2, 20191 votes

Gold efficiency isn't really an issue because tank items work in context of making other people's items less valuable, either against them directly or around them (Frozen Heart). The problem is that tankiness gets loaded into "bursts" of it through short but strong defensive steroids and tank items change around this. Tanks are fine with this because they can usually stunlock somebody in between their defense rotations. A juggernaut has very little if any disabling and it's usually single target, so they take a direct and more pronounced hit from it.

This is also why Sion is so strong relative to other tanks; he is bypassing that rule by constantly getting tankier while still having all the normal tank strengths (and then having BS damage to boot).

GigglesOMar 2, 20193 votes

No, purchase and slot efficiency is an issue. If I can purchase a 150% gold efficient item and just straight up have more stats, and even better win because I have those stats why would I build shitty defense?

Tank items fall off hard late game because their items aren't worth shit for gold.

oortoomeebreesuuMar 3, 20196 votes

item 4401 Give item 3083 Me item 3143 My item 3102 Items item 3068 Back item 3065

Everything tanks had, has been taken away. Any concept of defensive items is wholesale trumped by offensive items. Pepperidge fucking farm remembers when SV was allowed to have 20% CDR, but BC SOJ? sure 40% cdr instagib spam build. NEAT.

deadlychuckMar 2, 20194 votes

Yep, because damage has become so multiplicative. Especially AD's power which has benefited from now acting as ability power too.

SettDownShutUpMar 2, 20194 votes

For mordekaiser and sylas, it comes down to the issue that there's no AP Juggernaut items, they instead borrow from a mishmash of varying pools of other classes. If you make a Tank AP item though, you give way to the return of tank Fizz tank Ekko and the like

Moody PMar 2, 20193 votes

Mordekaiser just has no reason to buy HP; the shield isn't really enough. Buying AP scales his damage and his sustain which ALSO means his ability to heal an ally he Ws greatly increases, too.

He just doesn't really have the kit to warrant a bruiser build. OTOH his relaunch is only a few months away so this could change greatly.

GigglesOMar 2, 20191 votes

I'm going to somewhat agree with you on this statement. Hp is really nice on morde, and does give you a nicer shield, but you can negate more damage building straight up resists + ap and just having more consistent small shields (that block the same or more because of resistances) from your damage return.

DorkunedAurasMar 3, 20191 votes

Tank Fizz worked because of the %missing HP on his W passive. Because that's gone, Tank Fizz doesn't work anymore. Tankko though...

RalanrMar 2, 20192 votes

By assassin playstyle do you mean high damage build?

Moody PMar 2, 201910 votes

I mean he plays like a kamikaze burst caster not unlike lethality jarvan

His whole game plan is stack lots of AD CDR and pen and then delete your carry before his revive pops

RalanrMar 2, 20192 votes

That’s more diver than assassin.

Critmaster GarenMar 2, 201910 votes

{quoted}

That’s more diver than assassin.

his point still holds up. the power fantasy of juggernauts is supposed to be that of lategame raid bosses who fight front to back.

but since season 5 when they got their rework, riot has cranked up damage in this game overall so much, that juggers like darius just blow up to focus fire even on beefy builds. how are you supposed to fight front to back, when you die in the time it takes for your q to come off cooldown?

a "support" like deals 20% of your maximum health in damage with a single application of his passive with item 3151 (not even exaggerated. rylais + liandries causes him to deal 19.5% with a single application)

MissFortune ult damage literally got doubled with the marksmen update. look at the numbers in her tooltip, its actually insane. she deals almost twice her own health bar in aoe damage just with 2 items.

they did the same with a couple of mages like Velkoz

RalanrMar 2, 20191 votes

Wait wait wait,

If the juggernaut fantasy is late game then shouldn’t they have a weak early?

Critmaster GarenMar 2, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Wait wait wait,

If the juggernaut fantasy is late game then shouldn’t they have a weak early?

depends on the champion i guess. darius early should probably be a bit weaker, and he should scale into a massive teamfight threat.

garens late game should be a LOT better, because his early game is already shit.

Moody PMar 2, 20196 votes

Most don't actually have great early games except as counter picks (like Illaoi and Darius) or are meant to be lane bullies (Aatrox)

overall the class is strongest in mid game and then they fall off

RalanrMar 2, 20191 votes

Honestly, what Melee class doesn’t fall off late game?

Cause the only champion I think of is Yi.

Critmaster GarenMar 2, 20196 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, what Melee class doesn’t fall off late game?

Cause the only champion I think of is Yi.

skirmishers i guess.

jax, irelia, rhaast, riven, yasuo (?), fiora (?)

some get stronger as the game progresses even past midgame. at least when theyre played well.

RalanrMar 2, 20191 votes

I’ve heard Yasuo tends to fall off late.

So these characters that are high mobility fighters are really the only fighters that don’t fall off?

Critmaster GarenMar 2, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I’ve heard Yasuo tends to fall off late.

So these characters that are high mobility fighters are really the only fighters that don’t fall off?

i put that question mark there because i honestly dont know in yasuos case.

i mean some of his high mmr mains are capable of doing some crazy shit with him, and he doesnt really ever seem to fall off in the hands of someone whos really capable with him.

in most cases if someone like i would play him, then yea i can see myself not doing shit with him lategame.

BigFBearMar 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMbAF4eq,comment-id=000100000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-03-02T17:56:24.354+0000)

Most don't actually have great early games except as counter picks (like Illaoi and Darius) or are meant to be lane bullies (Aatrox)

overall the class is strongest in mid game and then they fall off

Yeah. Everyone says that Voli has a strong early but imho that isn't true at all. He is pretty weak and squishy early. Loses most Duells. Ok, he has decent early gank potential as Jungler (because of his Q-E combo) but that doesn't make him a "strong early game champ".

GigglesOMar 2, 20192 votes

Have you tried playing morde into anything with, range or mobility or cc? try playing him into even 335 MS champs?

RalanrMar 2, 20191 votes

Not every juggernaut is Mordekaiser . Remember that Juggernaut lanebullies exist.

GigglesOMar 2, 20191 votes

I actually think Morde needs a bit more late/mid game defense otherwise is a perfect juggernaut. Has mostly weak early even if he can push minions in. Clear weaknesses and windows of power.

Moody PMar 2, 201910 votes

The only major damage creep is from runes ( which I despise) but on champions directly it's not that bad

My major gripe is that built defense is a SHELL of what it used to be, across almost every stat; HP, armor, mr and regen. unless you have BS amounts of innate healing/shielding, damage reduction or a second health bar you arent tanky. All this durability now comes from your kit or Aftershock

doesn't help that they nerfed overgrowth too

Critmaster GarenMar 2, 201913 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMbAF4eq,comment-id=00010000000000000001,timestamp=2019-03-02T17:54:15.022+0000)

The only major damage creep is from runes

its not just runes. they contribute, but its class updates with season 6 onwards aswell, and item changes.

item 3151 got buffed for no reason, making certain mages deal unreasonable levels of damage with 1 or 2 items.

item 3124 phantom hits buffed the shit out of every single on hit champion

item 3135 also got buffed for absolutely no reason

grievous wounds everywhere cut into healing abilities that a lot of juggers rely on.

and then certain champion abilities are just way over the top. they went past "tank shredding" and into the realm of "tank bursting".

Vayne 14% max health damage on silver bolts without counterplay attached is beyond reasonable without even rageblade

certain aoe abilities like Velkoz MissFortune ults that juggers cant really dodge have been buffed like crazy at one point, are so over the top, its absurd.

Moody PMar 2, 20199 votes

that's fair.

still? To me the biggest problem is how poor defense actually is, especially for juggernauts who only have healing to give them innate durability which means they get chewed up by % damage and grievous both of which are easily accessed with no deviation from your core builds.

I really miss when juggernauts were properly tanky and we didn't have to rely on 3 seconds of a sterak shield to make or break a teamfight

GigglesOMar 2, 20193 votes

"But thats op" ~every assassin main ever.

Bears Dont CareMar 2, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMbAF4eq,comment-id=000100000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-03-02T17:58:11.730+0000)

its not just runes. they contribute, but its class updates with season 6 onwards aswell, and item changes.

got buffed for no reason, making certain mages deal unreasonable levels of damage with 1 or 2 items.

It gained .5% on spell hit and lost 1.5% on movement inhibited. It wasn't a large buff and the item previously also had mpen.

phantom hits buffed the shit out of every single on hit champion

The phantom hitnisnt the issue, the issue is how it is available for everyone now. Before it was jungle exclusive and only for champions such as udyr and warwick who are easily kited. Now, vayne has easy access to it.

also got buffed for absolutely no reason

Innate mr was increased across the board while flat mpen was reduced entirely. The change from 35% to 40% was to make up for it which only occurs against high mr targets. There is a reason for the change, and I wish the community didn't constantly suffer short term memory loss every time they disliked something.

grievous wounds everywhere cut into healing abilities that a lot of juggers rely on.

Innate healing was increased nearly across the board.

and then certain champion abilities are just way over the top. they went past "tank shredding" and into the realm of "tank bursting".

14% max health damage on silver bolts without counterplay attached is beyond reasonable without even rageblade

certain aoe abilities like ults that juggers cant really dodge have been buffed like crazy at one point, are so over the top, its absurd.

Really? Velkoz is entirely skillshot based, and MFs ult has only had number buffs. The former you can dodge without boots, the latter you can move out of it.

Some of the complaints are not valid because they were done as a power shift, to compensate for defensive buffs which the boards forget about, or are based on all skillshot champs.

The only one o can understand hating is brand because of the rework and vayne because her mechanics are very low.

Critmaster GarenMar 3, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMbAF4eq,comment-id=0001000000000000000100000001,timestamp=2019-03-02T23:44:16.108+0000)

It gained .5% on spell hit and lost 1.5% on movement inhibited. It wasn't a large buff and the item previously also had mpen.

its still an issue, because it generates a stupid amount of damage on certain champions.

a single application of brands passive with liandries burns more than 10% of your maximum health.

with rylais and liandries alone, it burns 20%. this is ridiculous. its one thing if the champion leans into an ap heavy build and pays the gold for the scaling. but these two items together just increase certain champions damage so much, that they can murder fighters and tanks on support budgets.

The phantom hitnisnt the issue, the issue is how it is available for everyone now. Before it was jungle exclusive and only for champions such as udyr and warwick who are easily kited. Now, vayne has easy access to it.

phantom hits were regarded enough of a problem to remove feral flare as an item just for junglers.

rageblade used to grant flat ap/ad per stack. the item just scales up on hit champions extremely hard. it would be nice if they reduced the passive at least to every 3rd or 4th hit from every second.

Innate mr was increased across the board while flat mpen was reduced entirely. The change from 35% to 40% was to make up for it which only occurs against high mr targets. There is a reason for the change, and I wish the community didn't constantly suffer short term memory loss every time they disliked something.

high mr targets are usually fighters and tanks. these champions arent supposed to just get bursted down by mages.

wasnt the innate mr increase just to marksmen at the time? wouldnt it make more sense to increase flat magic pen and lower % magic pen in that case?

Innate healing was increased nearly across the board.

only on some champions. the relationship between grievous wounds and heals was r%%%%%ed an%%%%%ken since day 1.

throughout this games history one of the two has always been out of line. at the moment its grievous wounds.

Really? Velkoz is entirely skillshot based, and MFs ult has only had number buffs. The former you can dodge without boots, the latter you can move out of it.

velkoz ult has a massive slow attached.

these "skillshots" are designed in a way that once you get hit by them as a juggernaut, youre basically fucked and have to eat the entire damage. all velkoz has to do is hover his cursor over you from a distance and press r.

against a champion like Darius who has no mobility or other option than to flash out of it, he is forced to take the entire ult damage when velkoz decides to press r on him.

even garen with the slow cleanse cant do shit against the ability, since the slow is immediately reapplied with the next damage tick from the ultimate.

at the same time it deals just such a ridiculous amount of damage, that this single ability alone can shred a fighter to pieces.

mf's "number buff" was to literally double the damage on the ability. her ult deals 2500 damage off two items at a stage in the game where she herself has 1500 hp. it easily goes up to 3500 damage with more items. how is a juggernaut supposed to avoid this damage when she also slows them with her e for a ridiculous amounts?

the point is, that these abilities have been overtuned like shit with the champions class updates.

Bears Dont CareMar 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pMbAF4eq,comment-id=00010000000000000001000000010000,timestamp=2019-03-03T00:18:21.377+0000)

its still an issue, because it generates a stupid amount of damage on certain champions.

a single application of brands passive with liandries burns more than 10% of your maximum health.

with rylais and liandries alone, it burns 20%. this is ridiculous. its one thing if the champion leans into an ap heavy build and pays the gold for the scaling. but these two items together just increase certain champions damage so much, that they can murder fighters and tanks on support budgets.

This is generally an issue with the champion rather than the item. The coding could be altered so that o ly the first tick generates the effect rather than every singular tick.

phantom hits were regarded enough of a problem to remove feral flare as an item just for junglers.

Not quite. Keep in mind the environment at the time. Generally. Few devourers existed but it was considered too strong on those few champions. The current iteration would have been fine if it was kept from the champs who made it problematic in the first place. Namely vayne.

rageblade used to grant flat ap/ad per stack. the item just scales up on hit champions extremely hard. it would be nice if they reduced the passive at least to every 3rd or 4th hit from every second.

For ranged or melee or both?

high mr targets are usually fighters and tanks. these champions arent supposed to just get bursted down by mages.

wasnt the innate mr increase just to marksmen at the time? wouldnt it make more sense to increase flat magic pen and lower % magic pen in that case?

It was across the board when they were retiring the rune system because you couldn't get mr runes anymore. So, to manage this high Mr increase. They removed liandries mpen and increased void staff pen.

Void staff is meant to counter tanks since magic champs deal burst in a window rather than overtime.

Hence why halo and kassadin hard counter magic damage along with sejuani and shyvana. They get such high mr that void staff and 33 mpen cannot get them through the tanks hp.

only on some champions. the relationship between grievous wounds and heals was r%%%%%ed an%%%%%ken since day 1.

I think garen and mundo both received buffs. Correct me if I am wrong but I know for sure mundo had a big ult bo

velkoz ult has a massive slow attached.

these "skillshots" are designed in a way that once you get hit by them as a juggernaut, youre basically fucked and have to eat the entire damage. all velkoz has to do is hover his cursor over you from a distance and press r.

The slow is 20%. Hardly massive since it is a reduction of 60 ms. The movement of the beam is slower than 300.

against a champion like who has no mobility or other option than to flash out of it, he is forced to take the entire ult damage when velkoz decides to press r on him.

Which does.pitiful damage without stacks. Mooney pops r like that unless it's against a low hp target.

even garen with the slow cleanse cant do shit against the ability, since the slow is immediately reapplied with the next damage tick from the ultimate.

at the same time it deals just such a ridiculous amount of damage, that this single ability alone can shred a fighter to pieces.

mf's "number buff" was to literally double the damage on the ability. her ult deals 2500 damage off two items at a stage in the game where she herself has 1500 hp. it easily goes up to 3500 damage with more items. how is a juggernaut supposed to avoid this damage when she also slows them with her e for a ridiculous amounts?

the point is, that these abilities have been overtuned like shit with the champions class updates.

It is a 3 second channel that does not move and she is extremely predictable in its use. Plenty of counterplay. The issue isn't the abilities, it's the change in runes and items

GigglesOMar 2, 20192 votes

I wouldn't forget the base stat adjustments that they gave champions with the runes reforged.

SaiannaMar 3, 20191 votes

They also made thornmail even worse than what we had before. Now it cannot even compete with item 1055 lifesteal lol

ThefrostyvikingMar 3, 20191 votes

Power fantasy of juggernauts was never just "lategame raid boss".

It also includes the idea of being extremely powerful 1v1 at all stages of the game as well as often lanebullies (hello illaoi&darius) when they are generally good.

Its like how Caitlyn was a lanebully but she was also a midgame powerhouse and a lategame monster......everyone hated her guts, everyone.

Juggernauts needed to be smacked upside the head, an example of what happens otherwise is the season 5 worlds disaster.

And MF ult needs the damage it does, because its a fricking channel that most people walk out of long before its over and done.

And with her prime build being lethality based it doesnt actually do much against anyone with armor, sure its super threatening against squishies but not against people with armor and health who dont die in the first 1,5 sconds.

Critmaster GarenMar 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Power fantasy of juggernauts was never just "lategame raid boss".

It also includes the idea of being extremely powerful 1v1 at all stages of the game as well as often lanebullies (hello illaoi&darius) when they are generally good.

Its like how Caitlyn was a lanebully but she was also a midgame powerhouse and a lategame monster......everyone hated her guts, everyone.

Juggernauts needed to be smacked upside the head, an example of what happens otherwise is the season 5 worlds disaster.

And MF ult needs the damage it does, because its a fricking channel that most people walk out of long before its over and done.

And with her prime build being lethality based it doesnt actually do much against anyone with armor, sure its super threatening against squishies but not against people with armor and health who dont die in the first 1,5 sconds.

mf's ult is a 3 second channel that deals 3600 damage at level 16 on her standart lethality build.

no, it doesnt need to do that much. even if you react immediately, a lot of squishier champions still die before they make it out of the aoe, because it deals their entire health bar in literally 1.5 seconds. why is this aoe ability capable of 100 to 0 ing people on its own? it doesnt make sense.

the problem is that the ability is balanced around highly mobile champions who can immediately dash out of it or interrupt her. but champions without mobility tend to just get slowed by her e and immediately die for free.

the entire champion degenerated into a ranged assassin anyways. her standart builds are lethality into cleaver for cheese 1 shots with duskblade because the burst off her q is just as dumb.

as far as juggernauts go, they dont need to be lane bullies. Nasus is far from a lane bully. Garen early game is weak as shit since the entire juggernaut update. i would say it varies from champion to champion how strong theyre early game and how well they scale, but juggernauts overall are supposed to scale into actually tanky carry threats who are able to fight front to back in teamfights. that was the initial goal.

due to the amount of ambient damage in a teamfight through abilities like brands passive, mf or velkoz ult, champions like vayne, and on hit champions with bork and rageblade, this has become literally impossible, because you actually get bursted in less than 5 seconds even on beefy item builds. skirmishers like Jax Irelia and similar more versatile champions just build their items now and do their job better, because theyre basically beefy assassins.

the entire game has devolved into people just bursting each other, because of a couple of mechanics and champions that have so much burst damage available, that theyre often just bursting even through beefy targets. so the champions that used to build beefy changed their build pathes to burst themselves in an attempt to burst the opponent before they can get bursted themselves.

i havent seen anyone actually deal sustained damage in quite a long time. that includes adc. because the ones that are played usually just blow their opponents up in some fashion.

ThefrostyvikingMar 3, 20191 votes

3600 is if the enemy has literally 0 armor though, and if she hits full build which she ever rarely does given that she is the type that wants to end the game ASAP.

It does like ......1000 at 6 with a item 3134 , at the same level she has 900 base health but also 40-ish armor which is 30% damage reduction so only ....666? Damage really, and this provided that the target eats the entire thing with their face without getting stopped.

A melee like say Darius at 18 with 1 armor item say item 3742 , and item 3047 will end up having 187 armor, down to 142 if MF or someone stacks some item 3071 on him first, thats still just short of 60% damage reduction meaning that even if Darius eats the entire thing from a fullbuild MF at that point he only takes 1440 damage from an ability that needs her to stand still and do nothing else for 3 full seconds.

Vayne and kog could kill him from full health in the same time, probably a few other too.

He has just short of 2300 base health as well, so as far as damage goes MF´s ulti is very well balanced given her standard build, and sure it hurts squishies but most of them are mobile or ranged, both have a much easier time avoiding it.

And from my memory and experience, juggernauts never really scaled well with defensive stuff since the update in season 5, going full damage with just like...1-2 tank items and carrying was always the most effective way, the current status of stacking hybrid defence and offense items is not really different by much but they are indeed squishier which i will elaborate a bit on further down.

A Darius, garen or Nasus could never hope to compare to a maoaki, sejuani or Rammus in tankiness, not even close, so stuff like item 3748 item 3078 item 3071 item 3053 were always popular on the juggernauts because the synergy with their style of getting as much durability as possible while still increasing their damage was always the way to go.

But they did indeed get squishier, comparatively.

Its because tanks got tankier and it had consequences, thats literally all there is to it, its why item 3036 got buffed, why item 3151 and item 3135 got buffed, why more true damage was added.

Tanks got tankier and too few really did any damage but because they felt the tanks were good at their current spot it was kept while anti tank tools were buffed, which naturally hits the other melee like juggernauts and the divers because they didnt get any defensive buffs to match unlike the reworked tanks.

GigglesOMar 2, 20192 votes

Lol because assassins also get an escape?

RalanrMar 2, 20191 votes

"Assassins specialize in infiltrating enemy lines with their unrivaled mobility to quickly dispatch high-priority targets. Due to their mostly melee nature, Assassins must put them themselves into dangerous positions in order to execute their targets. Luckily, they often have defensive tricks up their sleeves that, if used cleverly, allow them to effectively avoid incoming damage."

I'll admit Riot's definitions that decide the difference between an assassin and a diver is pretty shit. But yes, assassins definitely have more escapes than a diver. And Aatrox, barely has an escape anymore.

GigglesOMar 2, 20192 votes

So like I said divers are basically assassins without an escape...

RalanrMar 3, 20191 votes

Yes. That is the primary difference.

jocomotionMar 3, 20191 votes

So AD Karthus , AKA a battlemage.

Warlord RhinarkMar 3, 20192 votes

Legit, add item 3005 back into the game, and this will solve the problem.

Commader KiwiMar 2, 20191 votes

I kinda agree, BUT, considering im an Assassin main.. I dont think someone should be able to 1v9 just because its past 30 mins. I get that they should be a fighter, but if they do Assassin level damage while being tanky is honestly unfair imo. There needs to be a balance, for instance FULL AD renekton shouldnt be tanky just because he's a tank class. I've seen an AD renekton one shot, a yasuo.. literally 1 shot. I do not think thats how tanks should be played. IF you're tanky you should be able to sustain over LONG fights.

LTK KoRoMar 3, 20191 votes

I dont think someone should be able to 1v9 just because its past 30 mins.

Vayne Jinx Kaisa Tristana i totally agree

Also Moody is asking for real defense options for bruisers BUT more defense in items means less offence.

but if they do Assassin level damage while being tanky is honestly unfair imo. There needs to be a balance, for instance FULL AD renekton shouldnt be tanky just because he's a tank class.

This won't happen because said Renekton won't be full AD. He'll have something like idk, cleaver hydra+2 good survival items.

BigFBearMar 3, 20191 votes

Given how tank items have become extraordinarily bad unless you [...] don't have any other real build options (Volibear, Trundle)...

Even Voli isn't safe from that.

Best Voli jungle world "LtWazer" goes Precision/Inspiration. He said on Reddit: "Better way to avoid damage than a rune like Aftershock (with a 40 seconds CD!) is to just kill the enemy before he kills you" (atm with Conq)

Second best Voli Jungle "SirNordseeStyle" builds: item 1401 item 3800 item 3078 every game.

Going tanky just doesn't work anymore in this meta. You don't live any longer when you pick tank runes AND tank items, but therefore you are pretty useless and completely dependent on your team. That's why most high elo Volis take something like Trinity so they can carry. Steraks help them to not get instakilled in teamfights. I tried LtWazers style and it really works better. It's ridiculous but with Steraks you have more sustain than going full tank with much Armor and MR, because everyone ignores armor anyway.

The fun thing is: This makes the damage meta even more dmg heavy because even the classes who should soak some dmg away from their team go full dmg.

Wp Rito ;)

And btw. Resolve is the most boring and unrewarding tree in the game. With the least choices for Juggs (especially jungle) no wonder no one wants to play it. In precision there is one of the best tank runes in the game: "Triumph". Or must-have for junglers: "Legend: Alacrity". And resolve? I have to chose the only leftovers that ARENT niche like "Demolish" or "Conditioning". Even at Keystones I have only one choice as Juggernaut Jungler... "Aftershock".

How about giving us old "Courage of Colossus" as Keystone or Rune in Resolve so we jave a BIT more choices!

PoskeMar 3, 20191 votes

Given your summoner icon

Aren't you annoyed that Darius dies in average teamfight just before his second spin

Moody PMar 3, 20191 votes

Of course, that a part of why I made this thread

The only time I feel tanky is if I'm so fed nobody can duel me

5StackUltOneShotMar 3, 20191 votes

Ive literally started playing full AD Darius with the exception of Steraks (which tbh can be considered AD), trinity (which also gives AD) and visage/deadmans depending on who im against.

The only time I go tank Darius is when Im AMAZINGLY behind (I mean 0/5 behind) and go cleaver gargoyles and just try to act as a skillshot target