Is there a new AP CDR item in the making or even considering ?

option paralysis·Nov 27, 2015·51 votes·10,403 views

I'm tired of needing to run like 20%/lvl cdr in runes for Vlad and still having to buy the cdr boots to reach max cdr with AP items. I lose resistances and AP and I still need to lose the mpen from the boots, feels so dumb. Even with mana mages where I can buy the athenes or morellos, if you run cdr/lvl glyphs which makes you squishy as shit, which would be ok because it's a trade-off, you still don't get the max cdr. Meanwhile, on AD version you can get 40% cdr without even wanting to get it.

95 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirNov 27, 201562 votes

I don't believe there's specifically an AP/CDR item in the works at the moment, but we are aware of the concern and thinking about the issue.

Sire HippingtonNov 27, 20157 votes

how about increasing flat/scaleing cdr runes to 10%/20%, or atleast reintroduceing a low tier 5% cdr masterie?

It might also be a good idea to give item 3152 20% cdr, alongside with preemptive nerfs for that abusive fucker Vladimir

Zair UmbrasNov 29, 20151 votes

With blues and one quint, you can have 10% flat CDR. 15% with 2 quints. Isn't all that bad though for runes. Needs more items than runes though.

Sire HippingtonNov 29, 20151 votes

yous till need to commit 1 quint/3glyphs more for the same result as befor, meaning you either loose out on some ap, magic-pen, spellvamp or magic-resist.it's not a whole lot, but it is there.

And i kinda need 3 runepages for mages now, with 10/20/30% cdr, just depending on which itembuilt i'd go...would be awsome if we had more pages and could sort them in gruops so we don't need 15sec to find the right page in champselcet or make them editable in champ select.

LanofroseNov 28, 20159 votes

Don't know if you're one of the guys that does the balancing of items but it won't hurt to put my idea of an AP/CDR item out there, I remember awhile back when Luden's Echo released that there was a red post talking about maybe someday putting CDR on the item, SOOOO I think now is that time since we have more then 3 AP items over 100AP and overall getting high AP doesn't feel lacking.

Luden's Echo 3200g 80AP 8%MS 10%CDR

Unique: Gain up to +10% additional Cooldown Reduction equal to your AP from other sources. (2%CDR per 100 AP) (500 AP from other sources to max, similar CDR conditions to essence reaver)

**Unique: Gains charges upon moving or casting. At 100 charges, the next instance of ability damage you deal will expend all charges to deal 100 (+ 15% AP) bonus magic damage to the first enemy hit and summon up to 3 lesser bolts that target nearby enemies, prioritizing enemies damaged by the ability and champions over minions. **

Another 80 AP 20%CDR option to help fill that void mages are feeling but offensively (No mana support,reliant on other items similar to lichbane since it's really cost deficient without it's passives (64% only I think) but the item scales well to support it's cost.

But yeah that's just my 2cents on a potential AP/CDR item for mages, I thought this would be an interesting concept to share.

DREADN0UGHTNov 28, 20152 votes

That isn't a bad idea at all.

MessaigaNov 28, 201512 votes

I'm not sure that a passive like that fits well onto Luden's Echo's niche as an item (an item centered on mobility and burst). If there is any item that could use more CDR, why not add 5% CDR onto Athene's. I rarely see it purchased (unless on Lux) and Athene's favors sustained combat over short-term combat. Additionally, putting 5% extra CDR onto Athene's + 15% from runes fits exactly at 40%.

RottedApplesNov 28, 20153 votes

NLR item + cdr? DFG is that you?

(ty dfg)

lolipopevelynnNov 28, 201528 votes

{quoted}

I don't believe there's specifically an AP/CDR item in the works at the moment, but we are aware of the concern and thinking about the issue.

can you explain why you gave ADCs free easy access to 30% CDR through item 3508 , an item that also gives amazing damage + crit but cant give mages more power house CDR options? not everyone can buy or want to buy athenes and morello's is too weak andn its passive is wasted if there are no sustain champs in the game.

Cloud PotatoNov 28, 20153 votes

It's because it has to compete with the power of Infinity Edge. And nerfing IE was obviously not an option.

Kuroi86Nov 28, 201517 votes

item 3031 80-65 It was nerfed. :P

ER is a fairly situational item and you do lose a fair amount of DPS trading it for IE.

Cloud PotatoNov 28, 20153 votes

IE is still far superior to... name an item, for ADCs. I believe that it's intentional, though. ER I think competes purely by the fact that its utility is so different to IE's flat damage increase.

Kuroi86Nov 28, 20151 votes

Pretty much yeah. It's THE DPS item for marksmen, if you don't get IE, your DPS isn't going to be nearly as good.

Rend The DawnNov 28, 20152 votes

Depends, caster marksmen like Lucian do have a greater damage increase with ER due to how his passive works; Graves is probably the same due to being able to reload more often due to dashes.

OneSmoothDudeNov 30, 20151 votes

That's not true. Not all ADCs are the same anymore. For auto-centric ADCs like Jinx and Cait, sure ER won't be as good for DPS. But for ability casting ADCs like Ez, Lucian, or Corki, ER is much better than IE in terms of DPS increases. CDR and mana regen aren't just "utility" if you have damage-based spells.

Shrek LuigiNov 28, 20152 votes

Because the damage-output of AP Champs is directly tied to how fast a champion can throw out their spells. ADCS rely more on AAs to do consistent damage, and CDR is less relevant on them compared to offensive stats like crit/AD/arpen/LS.

4NoxiousHoursNov 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I don't believe there's specifically an AP/CDR item in the works at the moment, but we are aware of the concern and thinking about the issue.

what's there to think? just do it. https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/K.jq.a8jDxnESvlEmLvE8A--/aD0xMTk2O3c9MTc3OTtzbT0xO2FwcGlkPXl0YWNoeW9u/https://s.yimg.com/cd/resizer/2.0/FIT_TO_WIDTH-w1779/26cd4cf87ddda6c068d29d25eaa0d8aa5993a33d.jpg

Silents429Nov 28, 20154 votes

what's there to think?

Balance? Is it really what's needed? Who will this help, and who will this not help? Will the item be picked at all? What kind of niche should it fill? Does anyone need compensation for the new item?

My Waifu VanillaNov 28, 20152 votes

Who will it help? Easiest question in the world....literally every AP Mage that either A) doesn't use mana or B) has mana but does not need mana regeneration (such as malzahar or fondles or basically most burst mage such as annie, diana, etc.).

Outside of Rumble, almost every manaless mage would not complain about cdr being given to them and would very much appreciate an item that doesn't have wasted stats on it. Kennen and Akali both do extremely well with a lot of cdr (Kennen gains permanent passive through W at like 20% or something and Akali gains helicopter status and no cd between kicks making for a much easier time juking through people when you do not have to wait a whole second or whatever it is). Also the afformentioned Vladimir does well with the cooldown.

Abyssal Scepter might be a decent place to put it on as opposed to luden's and swap the blasting wand out for codex+amp tome so we have dual mr+cdr+AP items to choose from. Maybe increase grail in some way at the same time to make it not overshadowed but it doesn't sound like a bad choice.

Silents429Nov 28, 20153 votes

Who will it help? Easiest question in the world....literally every AP Mage that either A) doesn't use mana or B) has mana but does not need mana regeneration (such as malzahar or fondles or basically most burst mage such as annie, diana, etc.).

No this is not the easiest question in the world, you are being way to narrow minded about it.

A buff like this can bring certain mages into a strong point while putting others into weaker points, and because of the different set of mages now we get new team comps build to counter/help with the mages that are now stronger from the buffs. Like you mentioned Vladimir would love the cooldown, and I am sure everyone would just love it if he was picked more often too right?

The simplist of changes to this game, even if it's only directed at 1 champion can have massive butterfly affects, balance is no where near as simple as first perceived.

Abyssal Scepter might be a decent place to put it on as opposed to luden's and swap the blasting wand out for codex+amp tome so we have dual mr+cdr+AP items to choose from. Maybe increase grail in some way at the same time to make it not overshadowed but it doesn't sound like a bad choice.

The reason we keep Mr+CDR+AP items on a down low, or with somewhat low stats for those, is because no one wants a bursting tank mage in the game.

CoolKnightSTNov 28, 20152 votes

item 1058 + item 3108 (the old DFG recipe) would be the most logical option.

PartholonianNov 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

+ (the old DFG recipe) would be the most logical option.

There was never anything wrong with the stats of DFG, it was the old active that was broken and needed to be gotten rid of. I see no reason why a reworked DFG with either a different active (not a nuke or damage amp), or a unique passive (because completed items should be something more than a pure ball of stats) couldn't coexist with Ludens and the rest of the current AP item lineup.

PartholonianNov 29, 20151 votes

self-responded to add: someone else downthread pointed out that CDR is especially valuable to utility mages, who would also benefit more from something that is not a damage amp (putting a damage amp on a CDR item also confuses the "more spells per minute or more punch per spell" decision axis; people who want to blow you up in one rotation shouldn't value CDR that highly, but DFG was a big deal for them because of how much it added to that one rotation).

I think the movement speed proccing version of Lost Chapter (I forget the name and the BMB items aren't in the forum codes anymore) could be reasonable as a new real item (perhaps substituting item 3108 item 3114 directly in the recipe because it wouldn't make much sense to also add Lost Chapter itself if there is only one upgrade path). Maybe the turret-wrecking one too, but only if turrets continue to be buffed until they are at least somewhat tough; we don't need more ways to 100-0 the current paper turrets in the time it takes to back and shop once.

But those won't help people who don't want to build item 3165 because they're manaless, since they were basically "morello with a different passive" and had mana stats too. They would make more situational rather than "build stats I want anyway and get grievous wounds for free", though.

Alternatively or in addition, they could simply trade some of Rylai's current stats for 10% CDR (perhaps substituting item 3067 or item 3108 in the recipe depending on which stats they would cut to make room in the power budget). Casting more spells and adding a utility effect to each spell you land fit together reasonably well and Rylai's stats are universally non-useless for anyone with any AP ratios at all. (Health may or may not be high priority but it doesn't feel as bad as building mana on Rumble Vladimir Zac ).

ExecutorDillNov 28, 20153 votes

Same problem with these champs Aatrox Garen Renekton Shen and item 3025 item 3110 . We want a new tank CDR item that doesn't give mana.

Sire HippingtonNov 29, 20151 votes

yes, i feel forced to rush BC as garen or renecton(ir many other juggernauts/bruisers) as it's the only way to get cdr, which is an important stat, while BC now is a risky item giving little tankiness for the big costs. If you are not ahead and rush it, you will have a hard time surviving in teamfights now. And even on manatanks, i feel like my armor-item choices are massivly limited, as i need one of the wo mana+armor without health items, as there oare little to no other tank-cdr options.

VeryGreenNov 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I don't believe there's specifically an AP/CDR item in the works at the moment, but we are aware of the concern and thinking about the issue.

Staff of Flowing Water?????? That item is really good actually..... just make it so instead of a tome its a codex, and bam.... and new cdr item

softest boyNov 28, 20151 votes

Mages need CDR more than ADC's do. They're the ones primarily casting spells, while ADC's have a basic attack every +second. They don't rely on abilities as much as mages, therefore mages should have an easier time building CDR.

BattleBoarNov 28, 20151 votes

What??? Unholy Grail and Morellonomicon still have 20% CDR.

RedagaNov 29, 20151 votes

yes, but building 2 is out of question, or, as AP, you will lack behind and your damage wont escalate what it needs to be competent. people build 1 of those at best. I think giving a 10% CDR to item 3157 and item 3285 (reduce AP to 80 rather than 100 to keep it fair)

actually, many late game AP items can easily add CDR and compensating it with lowering the AP they give.

Mages spell wont burst, but now you will be able to cast spells faster.

BattleBoarNov 29, 20151 votes

Yes I now that but some one said they where lower to only 10CDR. So That why I said that.

PartholonianNov 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Mages need CDR more than ADC's do. They're the ones primarily casting spells, while ADC's have a basic attack every +second. They don't rely on abilities as much as mages, therefore mages should have an easier time building CDR.

No, therefore mages should have a harder time building CDR, because each point of it is more valuable to them. It should be a major selling point of an item and not something you get as a freebie.

They should have a real choice to make between casting more spells (CDR), or casting harder hitting spells (deathcap, ludens). Currently the "more spells" niche is taken mostly by items that give both mana stats and CDR, because you can't use the CDR to its full effect without mana stats... unless you're manaless. But never running out of mana is a big advantage already, do manaless champions really need separate items just for them?

RedagaNov 29, 20151 votes

given that most AP item simple got a price increase for reason, why not add 10% CDR to some to justify the price increase?

ToasteyNov 27, 201530 votes

Riot just took a fat shit on mages. Doubt they'll be giving them anything nice anytime soon. If I remember correctly, their reasoning was something like this: "Since mages rely on spells and cooldowns for the entirety of their impact, it'd be broken and it'd limit build paths if we introduced an easy 40/45% CDR build path. Since ADC's rely on crit and CDR doesn't really make or break them, it's perfectly ok to give them 30% from one item without detracting from the rest of their build." ... Which is complete bullshit.

ALL of a mage's power resides in their spells. They NEED their spells to be at all useful. Having a viable 40% build doesn't necessarily mean having a 40% build that gives oodles of AP and magic penetration, as Riot seems to think---maybe it's because their 40% ADC build comes bundled with loads of AD and crit; indeed, the ADC 40% scales off crit. It's rather disingenuous to provide a free 30-40% CDR to champions who massively benefit from it (ie Lucian, MF, Quinn, Graves), then turn around and say that mages would benefit too much from an easy 40% build.

The Yetii RiderNov 27, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toasted Pigeon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pLpAO4hR,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-11-27T20:56:07.061+0000)

Riot just took a fat shit on mages. Doubt they'll be giving them anything nice anytime soon. If I remember correctly, their reasoning was something like this: "Since mages rely on spells and cooldowns for the entirety of their impact, it'd be broken and it'd limit build paths if we introduced an easy 40/45% CDR build path. Since ADC's rely on crit and CDR doesn't really make or break them, it's perfectly ok to give them 30% from one item without detracting from the rest of their build." ... Which is complete bullshit.

ALL of a mage's power resides in their spells. They NEED their spells to be at all useful. Having a viable 40% build doesn't necessarily mean having a 40% build that gives oodles of AP and magic penetration, as Riot seems to think---maybe it's because their 40% ADC build comes bundled with loads of AD and crit; indeed, the ADC 40% scales off crit. It's rather disingenuous to provide a free 30-40% CDR to champions who massively benefit from it (ie Lucian, MF, Quinn, Graves), then turn around and say that mages would benefit too much from an easy 40% build.

Mages may need their spells to be useful, but their cooldowns are there specifically to give the opponent some breathing room. Mage players seem to want to be able to throw all of their abilities out constantly in a never ending rotation, but if that's the case Riot would have to balance their damage and mana costs around being spammed, and that limits the usefulness of players who want to off-build with max AP or some kind of tanky utility with Liandry's/Rylai's.

ToasteyNov 27, 20153 votes

Ryze Ryze Ryze Ryze Ryze Ryze Ryze Ryze Ryze Funny how exceptions are never mentioned.

The Yetii RiderNov 27, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Toasted Pigeon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pLpAO4hR,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-27T21:45:30.131+0000)

Funny how exceptions are never mentioned.

Ryze is GIVEN 30% CDR from his ultimate. His kit has clearly been balanced around him having 40% CDR.

JedenVojakNov 28, 20154 votes

Actually it was to punish him for building CDR items like... item 3110 item 3025

AudiomancyNov 28, 20156 votes

I'm confused as to why AP Casters need to give the opponent breathing room when any ADC can simply right-click their way to victory. No cooldowns. No mana. Chance to deal 250% damage. But Mages are OP?

The Yetii RiderNov 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shock n Awe,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pLpAO4hR,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2015-11-28T12:27:15.450+0000)

I'm confused as to why AP Casters need to give the opponent breathing room when any ADC can simply right-click their way to victory. No cooldowns. No mana. Chance to deal 250% damage. But Mages are OP?

Because ADCs don't have 1000+ range on their auto attacks (except Cait, but that's quite new).

Mages are also tanker than carries, so they get punished less for being caught out. Their abilities deal damage in an area and have crowd control. Comparing them to the flat damage that an auto deals is pointless.

Kitten of EvilNov 28, 20152 votes

Mages have to be tankier because they don't have real access to lifesteal or sustain (with some exceptions like Vlad and Swain-- WOTA just isn't good on a majority of mages because of the AOE/DoT penalties). ADCs all have access to sustain (especially now, with the Warlord's mastery, it doesn't even take an item slot!)

Kuroi86Nov 28, 20159 votes

Well there's Lost Chapter. Rite of Ruin. Netherstride Grimoire. Pox Arcana.

Seriously Riot, give us more of the Black Market items. We beg of you! ;_;

ErockandrollNov 27, 20155 votes

Am I'm the only one not striving for Max CDR on my builds? I just find it way better to hit harder, rather than more frequently. Only and hand full of spell slingers really do better with max CDR, compared to Higher AP. (And not Every AP is a spell slinger.)

Anu3isIINov 28, 20159 votes

It depends what you play in general.

If you play full damage/burst mages like LeBlanc or Annie, you can very easly rush damage and kill as many people as you can to snowball.

If you play utility mages instead , going full damage/AP isn't the best way to utilize their utility.

Also , the full CDR build didn't trade any AP , just the Sorcerer's Shoes , a magic penetration item. The old offensive masteries gave you 5% CDR (this mastery has been removed) , the old Lucidity Boots gave you 15% CDR ( now it gives you only 10% ). With Athene's/Morello's , you could achieve the 40% CDR cap (no runes or any other item). Today , with this build you will still need 10% CDR to achieve the cap , despite the fact that you actually trade damage ( Magic Penetration ) for it.

It isn't the problem that EVERYONE wants to build full CDR , it is the problem that a build path has been removed/nerfed, and there are less choices to make as a mage in terms of items.

Some people prefer to offer utility instead of damage/kills for their team. CDR was and still is the best stat for that.

RisenDarkKnightNov 28, 20151 votes

Actually the full cdr build didn't lose any pen or ap. You just would run cdr per lvl glyphs instead of mr glyphs. So you'd do equal damage just be squishier in lane, which was a fair trade-off in my book.

Anu3isIINov 28, 20152 votes

My only problem with the CDR per level glyphs is that you don't reach the cap as soon as the Lucidity Boots build.

In my opinion , when I need CDR on a mage , I need it at least in the mid-game , when teamfights start. When you play a champion that isn't focused on dealing damage , like Lulu , your only focus is to offer as much utility as you can.

Also , trading the MR glyphs for CDR/level is a significant trade for me. You practically trade your early game safety for a bit more utility in the late game. Most of the times you will see that the early stages of the game are the most deciding factors of a match. Still , I think you can get away with some long range champions ( Lux comes to my mind ).

So yeah , I agree that your build path works , with the only problem that the results come later (than you want) for some utility champions.

SquidblimpNov 28, 20156 votes

Vel'Koz needs CDR to proc his passive more. Veigar needs CDR to Q-stack.

Something like Annie isn't as CDR reliant I guess.

RyzeReworkNov 28, 20152 votes

Still more viable ap CDR items then ad

Sire HippingtonNov 28, 20156 votes

AD: item 3142 item 3078 item 3071 item 3508 item 3812

AP: item 3174 item 3100 item 3165

foristNov 29, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pLpAO4hR,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2015-11-28T16:36:27.342+0000)

AD:

AP:

funny how people always conveniently forget about: item 3115 , item 3152 , item 3060 , item 3504 , and item 3092 .