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Message to all Lee Sin players... (or any other early game champion)

Marshbouy··71 votes·32,237 views

Grabbing every single kill when you gank and then taking CS will not give your laner a large advantage in lane. It will give a moderate XP advantage and might result in a better CS lead (but if you're taking CS from the lane, this will be more difficult to achieve).

Best case scenario your laner is already ahead and nothing bad happens. Worst case scenario your laner is in an unfavorable matchup and you're keeping them behind in lane.

Why is this an issue? Lee Sin, Pantheon, and chamions like them have godly early games but tend to be less relevant in the late game because they don't have the same impact as other champions. If you're hoarding kills from your laners you're holding your team back and stalling out a game.

How many times have you seen a Lee Sin go 11/0 by 15 min and then 12/11? How many times have you seen a Lee Sin Q into a teamfight only to get CCed to death and collapsed on? Too many times to count.

You're hurting your team if you play selfishly and take everything. Sure, your KDA might look good for the first 15-20 min of the game, but once teamfighting phase rolls around and you fall off...your allies won't be able to back you up.

EDIT: There is a difference between intentionally stealing a kill and securing a kill.

EDIT 2: I love how everyone is assuming that Lee Sin is going to play perfectly and set up every objective and do everything right.

You know who else can set up objectives and snowball advantages? People in lanes. Grow the fuck up and stop stealing kills to inflate your KDA.

92 Comments

AR URF27 votes

Take kill, give cs. Give kill, take cs. That's how it works with junglers.

Marshbouy13 votes

how it should work. A lot of people don't understand that though and just take it all.

Prozzak3 votes

While true, a lot of people also don't understand pushing a wave so it resets after. I have (many times) had people in diamond mad pinging at me because I pushed a wave into the enemy turret when it would have easily been frozen by the enemy team if I had not.

Not going to say this is the case here, but it should be mentioned.

ExxonV8 votes

Take kill, take cs. Tell laner to back so you get solo gold on plates.

There I fixed it.

Frog goes moo6 votes

Ivern give kill give cs :) sharing is caring says the dung beetle

Serika Zero3 votes

taking cs while you got the incomplete jungle item in your inventory gives you less gold. Never take CS till you finish jungle item. You basically make your team lose gold lol.

At least if I take a kill, that's gold + for our team and I ensure that I secured the kill and the enemy didn't escape. When I take cs while my jungle item is incomplete, I make my team lose gold pretty much. I would be much better suited to go in the enemy jungle, look around, ward, steal a camp, etc.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Serika Zero,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pGvrElw1,comment-id=00090004,timestamp=2019-02-10T16:43:26.919+0000)

taking cs while you got the incomplete jungle item in your inventory gives you less gold. Never take CS till you finish jungle item. You basically make your team lose gold lol.

Only if your team CS is ahead, otherwise, you can take the CS with no loss.

They changed it so that it does not punish junglers for holding a turret. Edit: Furthermore, lee sin scales harder than Talon does damage wise. Not an issue if he chooses to try and carry.

Marshbouy19 votes

Footnote:

I know there is a difference between shoving a lane and taking CS. Helping someone push for plating is different than smiting the cannon.

I know that Lee Sin can be played into the late game, but it's difficult and full AD lee sin does not scale well at all.

BradNo6 votes

who tf smites the cannon? Waste of a smite.

Willuke2C8 votes

That's op's point, don't be an idiot when it comes to post gank activity. Cuz some people do smite minions if they think the laner is gonna block their taxation, at least in low elo

Dustpartical1 votes

{quoted}

That's op's point, don't be an idiot when it comes to post gank activity. Cuz some people do smite minions if they think the laner is gonna block their taxation, at least in low elo

The thing is, as an ex jungle main, I think the idea of "taxing lanners" is idiotic. A support doesn tax the mid laner if they roam for a gank mid... It is the junglers JOB to gank and make the laners lives easier. After a kill and my laner wants to back, or they want plates, or we want to take rift/dragon. THEN I'll help myself by helping them clear the wave.

However, laners also need to understand the jungler isn't their bitch. They can't whistle for a gank and expect them to stop blue buff and run bot lane. Also if they have prioity in lane and the junglers meet up at scuttle, its a good idea usually to rotate and help your jungler, js.

Marshbouy2 votes

Who tf is clearing krugs at 20 min when dragon is up? Low elo junglers who have no idea what the hell is going on.

RlTO lS TOXIC1 votes

[deleted]

Marshbouy2 votes

Correct, I am low elo.

Lord Kagetane1 votes

{quoted}

who tf smites the cannon? Waste of a smite.

lee sin do

koshkyra8 votes

Helping someone push for plating is different that smiting the cannon.

Preach.

ApollyonBainer1 votes

I just dont know why anyone would go lethality lee sin. Go BC and dead mans right off that bat. Still plenty of damage

Chalze8 votes

{quoted}

How many times have you seen a Lee Sin go 11/0 by 15 min and then 12/11?

aye lmao das me boi

The Yetii Rider4 votes

Assists give you 150 gold. That's more than you were getting before.

Marshbouy10 votes

in bot lane it's 75g. That's less than a cannon.

And I can say the same thing about you, why do you need the 300g? 150g is more than you were getting before. It's much better for the team for the better scaling champions to get the extra gold.

The Yetii Rider4 votes

Lol who ganks for bot lane?

WAZZZUP5001 votes

Good junglers that want their entire team to be ahead and one's who are objective-minded, as dragon is bot side and fairly easy to take after a successful gank bot lane

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Dragon is ridiculously easy to solo and thanks to sweep plant, you barely have to worry about being spotted with a ward.

Shinjusuke4 votes

As right as you are, keep in mind you're preaching to a group of players who're one of the only groups (if not the only group, I think it happened to Riven once too but I can't remember) to literally have their champion rework cancelled on the PBE purely because they bitched hard enough.

That's not even an exaggeration, you can still find the Riot comments about it. They literally whined like children hard enough that Riot said "nah, this isn't worth it" and cancelled his rework, despite the champion being oppressively dominant in the jungle like he had been for season after season after season after season. Not for design reasons, not for balance reasons, but purely because they didn't want to upset the Lee Sin playerbase. LITERALLY. Lee Sin players are some of the worst players in this game when it comes to entitlement, rational thought isn't going to get through to them. They're as blind as their champion is.

Dustpartical1 votes

{quoted}

As right as you are, keep in mind you're preaching to a group of players who're one of the only groups (if not the only group, I think it happened to Riven once too but I can't remember) to literally have their champion rework cancelled on the PBE purely because they bitched hard enough.

That's not even an exaggeration, you can still find the Riot comments about it. They literally whined like children hard enough that Riot said "nah, this isn't worth it" and cancelled his rework, despite the champion being oppressively dominant in the jungle like he had been for season after season after season after season. Not for design reasons, not for balance reasons, but purely because they didn't want to upset the Lee Sin playerbase. LITERALLY. Lee Sin players are some of the worst players in this game when it comes to entitlement, rational thought isn't going to get through to them. They're as blind as their champion is.

Isn't funny how OTP tend to have similiar characteristics with each other? Personally my favorite OTP community is Katartina.

Beast Brawler1 votes

I like the Morde community, usually really chill.

MankeyMadness1 votes

I admit my boys fanbase tends to be needy and annoying on boards. I just want to have fun and improve. My journey westward and up never ends.

I will be the best MonkeyKing

Dustpartical1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beast Brawler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pGvrElw1,comment-id=001800000000,timestamp=2019-02-12T14:58:56.225+0000)

I like the Morde community, usually really chill.

I could see that being the case. Personally I don't like the champ enough to have found my way into the community, and I rarely see a mord. Still I can't say I've ever met a toxic Mord.

Beast Brawler2 votes

And you hopefully never will, at least not a main. I can see someone trying Morde after he's reworked, doing garbage, and then getting toxic though. Mordekaiser might be a buggy mess of hot pasta code, but he's satisfying to play. I hope you have a great day!

Shinjusuke1 votes

Yeah, people who main certain champions seem to overwhelmingly follow certain trends.

Some of my favorites: Riven : Almost always thinks they're BoxBox, usually the first player to ragequit as soon as they fuck up a trade and die, is always convinced they're God's gift to League and anything that goes wrong is somehow someone else's fault even if there's no possible way it could be anything but them misplaying. Katarina : Basically Riven mains who prefer midlane/AP builds. Their shitty attitudes are nearly identical in my experience. Yasuo : 99% of the time these mains are toxic, self-important assholes who think their lane is the only lane that exists. The other 1%, ironically, is usually very friendly and fun to play with. Like Riven mains, they rarely understand this is a strategy game, not Team Deathmatch. Teemo : A crapshoot 50/50 chance of getting either someone who's just as shitty and toxic as Yasuo mains, or someone who's the most funny/chill person in the game. Vayne : One of my favorites because they're usually either A) Completely silent the entire game except for a single "gg" at the end, or B) the biggest trash talker in the game. The good ones are usually in group A, the shitty ones are usually in group B. Fizz : Kinda like Teemo, it's basically a 50/50 shot with these guys. You're either gonna get someone who's chill and responds to mistakes with "Nah don't worry about it, we got this!", or someone who... Well... Probably also plays Riven/Katarina, if you catch my meaning. Rengar : Probably a sadist.

And, of course: LeeSin : I can probably count on one hand the number of Lee Sin mains I've met in the 8ish years I've played League that weren't the most intolerable person in the game. Like holy shit, these guys bitch when they get fed and fall off, they bitch when they gank a lane even when their teammate has 10hp and no flash, they bitch when the team is losing, they bitch when they're not winning hard enough, they bitch when someone doesn't get insta-killed by their over-tuned ult, they bitch when they miss smite, they bitch when they can't win a 1v1 despite engaging with 1/3rd hp, they bitch when someone breathes wrong, the list goes on. Quite possibly the most fucking intolerable playerbase. No joke. Made even worse by the fact that Riot repeatedly panders to them because "LC$ Big Playz". It's very rare that I see a Lee Sin in the loading screen and don't think "great, there goes my fun for this game" at this point. Their track record for being fuckhead pricks is so consistent it'd be impressive if it wasn't so pathetic.

Dustpartical1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, people who main certain champions seem to overwhelmingly follow certain trends.

Some of my favorites: Riven : Almost always thinks they're BoxBox, usually the first player to ragequit as soon as they fuck up a trade and die, is always convinced they're God's gift to League and anything that goes wrong is somehow someone else's fault even if there's no possible way it could be anything but them misplaying. Katarina : Basically Riven mains who prefer midlane/AP builds. Their shitty attitudes are nearly identical in my experience. Yasuo : 99% of the time these mains are toxic, self-important assholes who think their lane is the only lane that exists. The other 1%, ironically, is usually very friendly and fun to play with. Like Riven mains, they rarely understand this is a strategy game, not Team Deathmatch. Teemo : A crapshoot 50/50 chance of getting either someone who's just as shitty and toxic as Yasuo mains, or someone who's the most funny/chill person in the game. Vayne : One of my favorites because they're usually either A) Completely silent the entire game except for a single "gg" at the end, or B) the biggest trash talker in the game. The good ones are usually in group A, the shitty ones are usually in group B. Fizz : Kinda like Teemo, it's basically a 50/50 shot with these guys. You're either gonna get someone who's chill and responds to mistakes with "Nah don't worry about it, we got this!", or someone who... Well... Probably also plays Riven/Katarina, if you catch my meaning. Rengar : Probably a sadist.

And, of course: LeeSin : I can probably count on one hand the number of Lee Sin mains I've met in the 8ish years I've played League that weren't the most intolerable person in the game. Like holy shit, these guys bitch when they get fed and fall off, they bitch when they gank a lane even when their teammate has 10hp and no flash, they bitch when the team is losing, they bitch when they're not winning hard enough, they bitch when someone doesn't get insta-killed by their over-tuned ult, they bitch when they miss smite, they bitch when they can't win a 1v1 despite engaging with 1/3rd hp, they bitch when someone breathes wrong, the list goes on. Quite possibly the most fucking intolerable playerbase. No joke. Made even worse by the fact that Riot repeatedly panders to them because "LC$ Big Playz". It's very rare that I see a Lee Sin in the loading screen and don't think "great, there goes my fun for this game" at this point. Their track record for being fuckhead pricks is so consistent it'd be impressive if it wasn't so pathetic.

Noooooooo. Katarina mains are usually quite friendly, but are quick to call someone out on some bullshit lol. That's my experience, and is why I feel into the community with such embrace <3. I will always love my Katarina, but lately I have been loving Akali. She is everything I was missing from League. Even with her nerfs [sg-jinx]

Hěro3 votes

Tbh, me as RekSai for example would rather take a kill than letting them escape. I had so many games where I wanted to give the laners kills, but they escaped in most of the games and led to a lost game later on. Either they get the kills from ganking or the jungler gets it. Whoever is faster.

Sir Saltarin3 votes

Cant agree more

Gilgayu2 votes

This applies to more than just early game junglers.

In truth, there are only a handful of junglers that can be justified for taking the kill in a gank. They are champions like yi, kha, graves, and kindred. They only take kills because they scale like monsters, but otherwise kills should always be given to the laner. Junglers don't need that gold lead. For most of them, the skill to set up a good gank is much more important than being able to 1v1 the enemy laner.

The same applies to roaming. Sure, a LeBlanc can take the kill because you know she will be busted once 4/0, but champions like liss or anivia don't need the kill.

Junglers are the one scaling with level instead of item (pre-6), and to be honest some junglers don't even need any gold to be effective. For example, a Rammus with 200 armor is just as strong as him with 150 armor.

Tundra Hunter2 votes

Actually, in high elo, you might see teams giving the kills to the early jungler so that he (the jungler) can have successful ganks in other lanes early as well. You might not get as much as a laner by not having the kill, but you still get a small lead / not get behind and that's already enough. Also, the jungler job is not only to get kills for the team, but firstly to set up objectives whether it's dragon, rift herald, baron, towers, etc. Stop flaming your jungler for KS. That's ridiculous.

Marshbouy1 votes

Also, the jungler job is not only to get kills for the team, but firstly to set up objectives whether it's dragon, rift herald, baron, towers, etc.

funny. Try telling that to low elo junglers.

ShaolinToilet2 votes

So basically this post is just you hating low elo/bad players and nothing to do at all with jungle

Marshbouy2 votes

am i not allowed to tell people how to play better?

MankeyMadness1 votes

The reason I main jungle is so I dont have Shyvanas who walk past Mountain drakes after killing the ADC and jungler in a counter gank 13 minutes into the game. Then we get to 25 minutes and still 0 dragons. On. Shyvana.

These people don't read tooltips. Or patch notes. Or anything that isnt a red or purple number

letsfeedtogether1 votes

tbh. not every time. some times you want to let your ig pushwith you after a good gank in there's a big minion wave or something.

Marshbouy4 votes

see my comment

Papdi11 votes

If you suck you will keep to suck. It's better for team when better teammates take kills, gold so that they can carry/end game sooner. Message to you from one trick Rengar (early/mid/late champ)

Marshbouy3 votes

So stealing kills makes you better at the game

HavokDash2 votes

thats what this game has become, its no longer about winning the game, but has become a kda "p!$$ing contest" over who has "more kills than u.

They take all the kills, then use said kills to reinforce how "better than u" they are. Riot has led the community to believe the ONLY thing that matters is "killz = skills" and other call of duty cliches They no longer care about winning as long as they can fight over who has "most kills, bruh" and when you try and bring up a valid point, they will use "dude ur 0/2, stfu" or something similar.

as long as they can take ALL the kills, that shows how superior to you they are at the game.

MankeyMadness1 votes

{quoted}

thats what this game has become, its no longer about winning the game, but has become a kda "p!$$ing contest" over who has "more kills than u.

They take all the kills, then use said kills to reinforce how "better than u" they are. Riot has led the community to believe the ONLY thing that matters is "killz = skills" and other call of duty cliches They no longer care about winning as long as they can fight over who has "most kills, bruh" and when you try and bring up a valid point, they will use "dude ur 0/2, stfu" or something similar.

as long as they can take ALL the kills, that shows how superior to you they are at the game.

Riot has been trying to get players weaned off of kills = skill Unfortunately they cater to 14 and under preteens so as long as that audience is there, attitudes won't change. It's how kids are.

HavokDash1 votes

My Logic is this. Think of League as chess, The nexus is the checkmate. The players are the chess pieces.

Focussing on kills in league is like trying to win a game of chess...By bragging how many times you can strike your opponent in the head with chess pieces. It may make you feel good but it doesnt do shit to help towards the checkmate. All people care about is "I hit you more times than you hit me, I win" and I have numerous people telling me that the ONLY way to win is "kills" "kills give you gold, thats how you win" ANd does the killgold magically damage enemy towers? does it reduce thier health? does it reduce thier defences? No, That burst of kill gold ONLY gives you money to buy stronger items to do MORE DAMAGE to towers. Not sit around waiting for opponents to respawn. The point of the game is towers and objectives, kills only keep the enemy out of the way so that they cant STOP you from taking towers. The killgold lets you buy items to take the enemy out of the way EASIER and do MORE damage to towers and objectives. Kills dont mean shit if you arent taking towers/inhibs/objectives All these kids who talk about how hard they are carrying... 18 kills, 0 towers = NOT CARRYING 5 kills, destroyed 4 towers, 2 dragons, 1 inhib = Stronk back CARRYING the team.

Papdi11 votes

OP post wasnt about kill stealing but about letting kills to laners who suck ass. If I come to lane for gank, delt most of the dmg and used Flash why should I let kill for 0/4 guy who wont utilise it?

WAZZZUP5002 votes

maybe so he can get back in the game and possibly be useful...

Shutdowns are so valuable now, that if he was 0/4, the laner getting the kill would be even more important, as it could get them an important power spike that could put them back in the game. By being a greedy @$$ mf, you're crippling your team even more.

FixHealsRemoveGW1 votes

The best Lees are those that come for the free kill then smite your cannon, take all cs and then leave you to be ganked 2 times by enemy jungler. Then they will be bot for the rest of the game and not even get dragon. [slayer-jinx-wink]

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