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Poacher's Knife to Summon Specters of the Slain Monster (and renaming the item)

OyddAWqJ5r··54 votes·3,805 views

#SPECTER'S DAGGER

The main concept behind this is to change Poacher's Knife from it's current "camp stealing tool" to an overall "counter jungling tool". Meaning all things involving counterjungling to include defensive counterjungling as well; instead of simply smiting an enemy monster for bonus gold. This change places more depth on the decision making of which enemy monster you decide to go for and rewards you for successfully making the treacherous journey into the -most likely- warded enemy jungle.

UNIQUE: Scavenging Smite: If Smite is used on a large monster in the enemy's jungle, the recharge timer is halved. Upon killing the affected monster, you gain 20 bonus gold and 175% bonus movement speed that decays over 2 seconds.

NEW! - UNIQUE: Haunting Smite: Smiting a large monster now causes it to leave behind a specter of itself upon clearing it's camp, retaining 30% (+5% per level) of its Health and Attack Damage and lasting 60 seconds. This specter grants omni-vision of the area around it (vision through bushes and walls) and attacks all nearby enemies (prioritizes champions) while only granting 50% gold and xp to the killer when slain.

Additionally, if the specter was a large monster from the enemy jungle the camp will not begin its respawn timer until the specter is slain.

(120% Health and AD at level 18) (Epic monsters are immune to the effects of spectralization and spectrification)

#CHANGES

REMOVED - (Gold gain from specter simply existing in enemy jungle removed!)

REMOVED - (True sight removed!)

REMOVED - (No longer requires you to clear the entire camp to spawn the specter! Also, specters get along with neutral monsters, meaning the large Raptor won't attack the small ones and they won't attack the specter either. However, the small Raptors still see allies of the specter Raptor as their enemy and will still attack when threatened.)

NEW! - (Omni-vision added! A new mechanic that lets a unit have vision of the entire radii around it, over walls and everything. Also due to this change I'm thinking the specter should spawn directly in the center of the camp, cuz OCD for the vision granting thing.)

NEW! - (Elemental specters (blue/red buff) have increased sight range! Essentially granting you vision of the entire side of that jungle.)

NEW! - (Now marks the monster for 15 seconds, allowing you time to clear it or hand it to an ally!)

Numbers for monster health and attack damage retained are not set in stone. Monsters also retain all other values (attack speed, movement speed, armor, mr and anything else I missed). Additionally, specters are NOT considered to be monsters for the sake of smite, machete and all of its upgrades. So don't be fooled by the smaller health pool and damage, it will still leave a dent on a jungler that tries to clear it early on.

Lategame its purpose becomes basically an additional ward. As there aren't many people that can't clear a camp at level 18, even one with 120% stats and the non-monster tag.

Specters stay in their respective camps and generally behave like a regular monster but act as if they are always being aggro'd by any enemy unit that comes near.

So now it not only acts as an effective way to poach enemy camps but also lets you set a 60 second "living ward" in their jungle. This sentry will be more or less a pushover early on... unless ofcourse you manage to steal one of the larger monsters (Sentinel/Brambleback). The bonus for taking an enemy monster still remains as well.

Additionally, the effect not only applies to enemy monsters but your own as well. Smiting your monsters creates specters on your side as well, allowing you to fortify your side of the map with vision-granting sentries!

Also most credit for inspiration of this idea goes to SpecterVonBaren, who posted a similar concept on another thread. Which makes me feel like it's only appropriate it be named Specter's Dagger, which actually fits really well.

It does sound pretty badass to fight alongside a spectral Brambleback you stole from the enemy jungle.

57 Comments

OyddAWqJ5r11 votes

Get it? item 3136... just kill me now and end the suffer-item 1056 (I'm sorry!)

AbodyHUN6661 votes

Suffer...Doran...Wut?

Rebelhunter013 votes

Suffer ring.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

item 3508-nd something today ;)

Zenzak1016 votes

I feel like it would be a little stupid having you spawn a full strength monster.

What i would like to see is that it does spawn the facade of a monster to trick them, like a ghost with 1 HP that acts like a pseudo pink ward. That way, they still feel the sting of getting nothing out of a jungle camp, and your team actually knows where they are, but instantly loses the vision when they large monster dies.

Jungle Lux God5 votes

I like this idea, but not in this way.

The primary reason to counterjungle is to deny the enemy jungler gold and experience.

Taking a camp from the enemy jungle denies the opposing jungler 90-100% of the gold and experience from the camp, depending on how much of the camp you want to take to deny the enemy jungler access to the camp (ie. take all but 1 raptor to deny enemy jungler raptor camp). This item changes that to denying them anywhere between 50-75% of the camp's gold and experience, depending on the camp and how much of it you want to take. As a jungle main, I would not buy an item to counterjungle that reduces some of the incentive for counterjungling.

That said, I like the idea of a jungle item that grants vision over an area in the jungle around a jungle camp because vision has such a large impact on the game. Vision wins games, and I think it would be really good for at least one of the jungle items to grant vision. It wouldn't have the teamfight impact that Stalker's Blade has, it wouldn't have the dueling presence of Skirmisher's Sabre, it wouldn't have the sustain value of Ranger's Trailblazer, but it would have a mapwide impact that would give a new option for a lot of other junglers.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Also denies machete gold gains and doesn't count towards devourer and also doesn't grant any smite perks.

But i totally see where you're coming from. This isn't too much like the camp denial of old rather it gives you vision of where the enemy jungler is or isn't and let's you control a part of their jungle or your jungle. Also you can use it to bait since you can see when an enemy will try to clear it.

Owl HD4 votes

I can't see any situation the damage/vision it would give being worth giving exp towards the enemy.

OyddAWqJ5r15 votes

Edited to match OP

Think of how hard it is to kill Bramble at level 2/3. Now think of how unrewarding it is to kill a Bramble that only offers 50% gold & xp and no buff. Who would want to waste their time and health doing that? The gold & xp is there just to give a little more incentive to killing the living ward infesting their jungle which otherwise has no reason to be slain other than to deny vision to the enemy (which potentially could be worth it I guess, won't know until testing).

Edit: Also the gold and xp is only really somewhat worth killing it for early on. Later in the game the gold and xp is negligable, especially for the 120% health and damage it now has (also acts a HUGE bait to the enemy team since it grants vision of them as they are attempting to kill it).

Edit Edit: Also bear in mind that it doesn't grant machete's gold bonus either since it identifies as a non-monster unit.

Edit Edit Edit: That new "no enemy jg camps respawn until the specter dies" change.

Sire Hippington3 votes

with the right number tuneing that could actualy work(150% health scuttlecrap is an imortal wandering ward ontop of the speedshrine)

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Bwahahaha. Okay, let's also add in "Doesn't affect Scuttle" lol

junglerboy162 votes

already had that in there, since scuttle is too epic to be spectrified.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Confirmed, Scuttle is included in the "epic monster" category xP

Decrit2 votes

They have already spectrified the crab once It did not end well

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk122/Cosmicflare01/World%20of%20Warcraft%20Rares/GhostcrawlerAgain.jpg

SouL1ess1 votes

LOL

Does a spectral crab still do game design though?

Decrit1 votes

Well, since they bought a crab to the office we got spectral gates in the base, so i guess...

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

http://i.imgur.com/BhaWKt9.png

LivingShdw3 votes

I would rather the effect work as follows:

After smiting a camp illusions of the camp are created at the location that last for 90 seconds. Illusions vanish when attacked and the camp respawn timer doesn't reset until the camp/illusions are cleared.

AbodyHUN6661 votes

This one really feels strong, because some of the weaker jungler can't really afford to "test" their camps and get damaged by them if they weren't stolen.

WildCard8232 votes

I kind of like the idea, but I don't like the idea of creating another monster. It would be too overpowered to get a little extra experience (especially in your own jungle). What if it created an invulnerable ghost of the monster if smited in the enemy jungle for 30 seconds. Essentially, it wards the enemy jungle for you for a short time, but since it's a ghost of the monster, it's not a ward, so it doesn't mess up your ward count. This is sort of how I thought yours was going to go at first.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Originally I was thinking along the same lines. But I didn't want a copy of the Murk Wolf buff so I eventually came to this.

As for "...overpowered to get a little extra experience (especially in your own jungle)..." it denies the original 100% gold and xp that they could have gotten and replaces it with the specter's 35%. It's also not a total pushover so that xp and gold is well earned.

WildCard8232 votes

Here's how I see this working. You get this to clear your own side. Imagine this with someone like Master Yi. I clear gromp with smite. He comes back, and I kill him again fairly quickly and get a little more exp. What this also does, is it opens the opportunity for the laners to get more exp. The jungler can take the krugs, then after the bot laners push the enemy to the turret, they walk back, take the krug, get a little more exp, then go back to lane. I think this item would be the only jungle item anyone would get.

ZylotheWolfbane1 votes

The simple solution to this is to simply make it so the 35% gold and experience won't be gained if the specters are cleared by someone on the allied team. So you can't just double-farm your jungle, and your allies can't farm after you go through. Also you could make it so the specters on the enemy side of the jungle delay the spawn, but the ones on your side do not. Would be a bit complex to pull off, but could definitely work out I'd think.

Duke Anax1 votes

or simply sinse they provide vision to your team they should be allied to your team, so you simple can't kill them yourself.

I really like the idea of creating specters in your own jungle. The vbiggest problem of Poacher has alwaysws been that it becomes totally useless when they manage to drive you out of their jungle.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

What this guy just said. I figured it was obvious that if the specter is on your team you can't kill it. Guess not lol

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

I don't recall mentioning that you had the option of killing your ALLIED specter.

Didn't think i needed to clarify that you can't kill allied units lol.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Haha, wow, this has certainly blown up with discussion. Wasn't expecting my initial idea to spawn something like this. (Let alone an item with my name on it) Liking where you're going with this idea though.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Pretty much 100% stolen from you anyway and the name just so happens to be a perfect fit. Glad you like it! :)

We'll see if Riot takes it or not. I don't expect that 30% (+5% per level) number to stick. I'm sure they'll know what numbers to put on it.

3tyson1 votes

being able to change all camps in the enemy jungle into wards is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY TO OP for 60 secconds

not only will they be wards but you wil also see when the enemy jungler is low this is the most terrible idea ive read on the forum so far and woulld make counter jungling way to op

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

75 second cooldown on smite. Also heavily countered by wards especially since everyone sees you bought the item. Perhaps you are right though and the duration could use changing. But I think the reward should be worth the risk.

Also, you can't waste your 2nd charge of smite for this purpose if Dragon or Baron are up.

3tyson1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pExqMm5F,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-06-22T13:31:57.381+0000)

75 second cooldown on smite. Also heavily countered by wards especially since everyone sees you bought the item. Perhaps you are right though and the duration could use changing. But I think the reward should be worth the risk.

as a jungle main i say this is overrewarding this litle risk just because the use of common sence makes it allot les risky in the enemy jungle and having this much vision in the enemy jungle is verry usefull for free

junglers like shaco nidalee and reksai who have an easy time stealing away a camp specialy early game will get a MAJOR advantage over the under jungler especialy if you manage to take away a camp early game where the non suspecting jungler is clearing it with his last 10% of his hp its already easy enough to place a ward there

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

I see what you mean. But instead of gutting the duration I think ease of clearing it is a better way to go then. So 60 => 45 and health & ad from 42% (+6 x level)% => 24% (+7% x level)%

If it's necessary ofcourse.

3tyson1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pExqMm5F,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-22T13:49:08.088+0000)

I see what you mean. But instead of gutting the duration I think ease of clearing it is a better way to go then. so 60 => 45 and health & ad from 42% (+6 x level)% => 24% (+7% x level)%

item 3711 knife is actualy pretty usefull as it is

there is item 3706 which is probertly in ost situation the second best enchantment its incredibly usefull on cc poor junglers that need it like RekSai

there is item 3713 wich is the best most likely the faster clear your getting and mana/sustain will set you up for more ganks and will let you be be more save in your jungle

item 3711 doesnt seem like much but the strong part here is that it puts smite on a much lower cooldown wich will allow you to easily steal away the entire enemy jungle and put him behind a ton i stil felt like it is an incredible usefull enchantment on Shaco Nunu RekSai cause they can easily go into the enemy jungle reksai does sort of need stalkers for ganks so im not sure if it is worth it

the problem with poachers compared to all the other smites is once you lose your map control its a 100% worthless

I Am Florg1 votes

Items that are pretty useful as they are are actually used in game. Poachers smite is not, and for good reason.

Shroom Junkie1 votes

Remove the XP, as the monster wouldn't spawn for awhile even after the specters despawned anyway, and remove or nerf the bonus gold because that seems pretty excessive. Otherwise great idea. Good for getting counter jungled as well as counter jungling yourself.

DeynaTaggerung1 votes

Ok I really like the idea. It just seems really cool and has lot of ways to make the game more interesting. +1

Some things I think would be worth changing:

  1. Add that the re-spawn of the camp is delayed while the specter is still alive. This would give the enemy jungler incentive to go clear that camp.

  2. As several other people have mentioned. Giving that gold and xp kind of takes away from the purpose of counter-jungling which is to deny gold and xp. Point number 1 will help with incentive. Another idea (probably not feasible but worth mentioning is if the monster once aggroing would follow the jungler outside its normal camp area. Then people couldn't ignore it.

  3. It seems that this smite as it is would be helpful early game. But once you hit mid-late game then having this smite compared to skirmishers and chilling just isn't worth it. It'd be so much easier to just spend 75 gold and drop a ward. (Plus they can't see it then). This means that even with the changes haunting smite still wouldn't be viable. Therefore making the camp's health and damage scale with the health and damage of the person who smote it would make that a nuisance even in the mid-late game.

  4. So this smite would take effect after the camp is cleared, correct? even if the jungler smites first. I think what should be done is make is so that as long as the camp is cleared within 60sec (number to be changed depending on balance) it will spawn the spectre. This would still apply even if the enemy jungler cleared it. So you could be sneaky and smite say red buff(krugs?) against and eve and if she goes really low trying to clear it then it might kill/frustrate her when it doesn't die. This might add some interesting interactions

Dank Fuel1 votes

Maybe not within 60 seconds of smiting... but if the smite kills the target? (doesnt work on dragon/baron obv)

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Dat 1st one, perfect!

Then the gold & xp thing can stay.

As for 3 lategame it isn't meant to be anything but a living ward. And trust me, the vision it grants is 100% more useful lategame than early.

Penta Penguin1 votes

I really like this idea. I've been disappointed that all the other knives and enchants get changes and reworks but nothing is happenign to Poachers.

Grouchy Poro1 votes

I think this change in the long run would have it overshadow the other choices, just like trailblazer used to do. I love the idea, but this could turn into a real pain and make things pretty toxic. All you need to do is smite it, and suddenly you have a potentially everlasting ward trap that is a pain to deal with. If someone gets ahead with this (see Shaco), it will make the game very unforgiving and jungle is already an unpopular role in modes like teambuilder.

I like the idea, and I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying it would need a lot of internal testing and tweaking to keep it in line.

Mr Hydde1 votes

how about the specter look normal to the enemy team, but when they go to clear it they get no buff/gold/exp. the the bonus is their jungler wasting time and resources

Jamener1 votes

A cool idea that should definitely be put on the brainstorming board when Riot eventually gets around to fixing this item.

DrCyanide1 votes

I think part of Poacher's Knife's problem is that it's only usable on the enemy side of the jungle.

What if smiting any camp simply let you see what that camp saw for X seconds when it respawned, regardless of who finished it off or what jungle it was in?

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

This smite makes no difference whether it's an enemy camp or allied. Doesn't say so in the OP does it? :P

Dracocrash1 votes

Ok, if you ask me this does seem a little OP. Maybe something like it keeps all the current stuff it has (as of patch 5.11) and also gets the "ghost monster" mechanic with all the numbers you talked about. BUT the ghost can only appear on your side of the jungle, is untargetable by you , has a 1 minute timer and the moment it dissapears your camp will spawn.(they have a 1 minute timer). As fun as this item seems to be when ur using it, imagine the pain and toxicity the enemy jungler will have to feel. (aka playing against a shaco) So it can be an item to prevent counter jungling as well as to let it counter jungle, this way it seems balanced IMO and there will be many junglers who will become viable with it and will use it. EDIT: what im saying is the main goal of an item should be to target a certain group of champs that can use it right?

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Makes complete and total sense I hear you. But for clarity's sake aka not having an essay for an item I won't be changing the OP to mention this (remember it still has that extremely long machete passive).

If Rito decides that's how they want to do it then that works out perfectly fine too.

Also there's tons of counterplay to this as well. The fact that the effect is so "open-ended" for lack of a better term leaves it open to tons of interesting scenarios.

Snowplosion1 votes

Seems like an intresting thought. Just to make sure if you clone the red buff when the enemy kills he doesn't get the buff right...

CoolKnightST1 votes

It feels like a nice idea but I would tone it down a little bit:

  • Don't it vision, that's the reason why it could become to OP.
OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

That's the only reason it can be viable without creating an oppressive monster in the enemy jungle. Lategame the monster is basically all but useless unless he numbers get way overtuned. But in that scenario you have some junglers that build lifesteal and can take it down on their own and then junglers like Malphite who would take way longer to clear the specter and take some heavy damage as well.

Originally that was the idea, to have just the monster. But after seeing how ineffective lategame it would be I needed some other way for it to stay effective.

If the enemy team would rather not the enemy have that vision then they can counter-counterjungle with defensive wards or take the specter's down ASAP as a team.

CoolKnightST1 votes

Well it suppose to be an early jungle item so I guess it's ok that the powerspike is earlyer and maybe whe can stil give it vision in your jungle.

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