Faithful reworks are the best reworks

Moody P··24 votes·10,241 views

And I can't, for the life of me, understand why Riot does anything else.

Nunu Akali Warwick Evelynn Irelia * stand, IMO, head and shoulder above every VGU specifically because I can still recognize the original champion. There is a very clear regard and respect to the preceding concept and most people will look at these 3 reworks and say "Yeah, I know who that is." These champions already give a solid foundation to work off of, there's no stupid, terrible retcon where "oh, actually, this character has a super sad past/is secretly feeling sad." The old base gives you a simple concept and delivers it; the new creation takes that same fantasy and upgrades its delivery. And because there's that foundation to work off of, knowing how you're going to balance them is much easier, and, voila, Warwick and Eve have hardly been troublesome to anybody, and nobody minds either of them being strong.

On the other hand, the most controversial and/or problematic reworks in terms of balance have always been the ones with the least faith. Galio Aatrox Poppy (Poppy being the least so.) These reworks, on top of throwing out almost everything that made the original characters likable and slapping a new story, new personality over it, have turned up into some of the biggest balance issues we've ever seen, outdone only by Ryze and Azir. Riot has no idea what they want to do with Galio, so he sits in this awkward crossroad between a mage, a tank, a bruiser and a peel support, genuinely one of the biggest jack-of-all-trades in the game, battered down into garbage tier because it's the only way to keep him out of pros. Aatrox has maintained almost 100% pick/ban status in pro despite, again, being nerfed into the dumpster for soloQ up until you get to diamond and up. You can go on the Aatrox sub reddit right now and 2 months later there's still an endless supply of angry players, even though they know full well it's futile at this point. Poppy isn't quite as extreme because she at least manages to be good in pro and solo at the same time, but I can recall more than a few unhappy times where she was basically a full tank doing better bruiser damage thanks to her insane base and % damage. She's kind of overbearing whenever she starts actually getting good, albeit a lot more manageable in soloQ when strong unlike the other 2, but it's worth mentioning.

I'm bringing this up partially because of worry for the future, given that a lot of champions I enjoy are unfortunately on the VGU chopping block, and partially because of the upcoming VGUs. So, we know that Ezreal is getting something very in the near future. It's not going to be huge other than visuals/etc and small kit changes, which is why I 100% expect it to go over either well, or amazingly well. We already know that it's going to still be Ezreal; it fits the criteria of what I said above in a faithful rework, because the goal of it is to be Ezreal.. but better. These are the reworks I get excited for, even if I hate the champion or don't actually plan on playing them. We don't know much about Kayle/Morgana yet, but based on how it sounds, I expect something of a similar treatment, with Kayle getting more kit-work done. I hate Kayle with a burning passion, and I still really, really hope I can be able to say "Yup, that's Kayle" when she's finally shown off.

Given the general community reactions to either type of rework, I hope Riot gets the hint, because I know I'm not alone in hating it when a champion I've played for years is suddenly nothing like what I'm used to, and is no longer my champion. Please, stick to good faith reworks, because those are the ones that genuinely make this game better.

* Irelia is sort-of excluded because I think the Irelia is, at its core, really good, and Riot is just doing a horrible disservice to her because they insist on keeping dumb stuff like triple Q burst and her E's absurd width. The fundamental is actually amazing, but it's done wrong by the finer details.

56 Comments

La Bello12 votes

I just really hate how they went complete 180 on Poppy's attitude.

She went from a non-sense warrior woman to a ditsy naive airhead. Mentally she leaped from Morpheus all the way down to Kid Goku all so she would be more marketable.

also yeah its ridiculous how Riot cant decide if they want her to be a peeling tank or a in-your face crushing bruiser.

Moody P3 votes

I miss hypercarry poppy. Possibly the only true hyper carry in league; when it worked, it felt amazing

La Bello6 votes

that shit was cancer and needed to go lmfao.

Possibly the only true hyper carry in league

MasterYi Twitch Vayne (before Riot gutted her Q+Crit interaction)KogMaw (back during Juggermaw patch post Marksman update)

Moody P2 votes

hard disagree, but i'll never get my way with current rio

Automated Riven4 votes

There were ways to tone it back without gutting her ability to be a hard carry bruiser.

Ya her ult needed to not be damage immunity and cc immunity. But completely removing the old champ was the wrong move.

flibitydoo10 votes

Can't recognize a thing about old yorick but he feels much better to play against and the few times I tried him out he seemed pretty fun too.

Gangplank was hailed as the best rework for months after his went through and his gameplay changed massively to being about the barrel gimmick (instead of his old press Q at level 1, all-in and if you fail, lose the rest of the game and become worse than a siege minion).

Fiora was a balance nightmare and nothing really stayed the same about her post rework besides the fencer theme. But at least she moved from being a press R to stat check your opponent with hydra into something that actually takes skill to play.

Heimerdinger still has his turrets and because of that he is still cancer to melees.

Malzahar still has his R and is still awful and uninteractive to face

Yi is still a statcheck champion but at least ap yi no longer exists.

Trist is still a stat check champion. but ap trist is mostly dead, and she mostly rises and falls based on the items.

Karma's rework is awful but it's nothing faithful to her original form.

Graves took years to bring back his cigar and he's been doing pretty well for himself despite being deleted into being a jungler.

Sion is nothing the same as his old one and this is 100% personal bias but I love playing him.

Urgot is a completely different champion and he's kind of in a bad spot because the balance team continues to neglect his existence. Kind of hard to say if his rework was any good or bad.

Taric's rework is a completely new champ and it seems to be doing pretty well.

Swain is basically a new champ with new gameplay and he's doing pretty well.

Soraka I don't think I can give an opinion on because I was one of those weirdos who thought "hey they made this champ take skill with her Q skillshot, let me try master that" and then she became my main champ with 400k mastery. So there's obvious bias.

Moody P2 votes

yorick has some of the most lopsided matchups in the game. He's.. really not well designed at all, lol. He has exactly 1 good quality in that he can push fast, provided you completely ignore him because he's a mediocre duelist and can't pull off 1vX against a coordinated team.

GP is certainly not healthy. Fun, yes - but he's been a balance trouble ever since. It's kind of telling that you can give him nothing but straight nerfs and he'll find his way back up without any help a few months later.

Heimer would be fine if they'd stop letting pets apply spell effects - because there's really no reason that Zyra and Heimer, who both already have CC on their own, should be able to create permaslow death fields for anyone they can't delete in their rotation. I don't care about his lane bullying melees; that's just a habit of the champion.

Urgot rework fails because he got a massive overhaul just to not actually fit into any new role. He's not weak, and I tell you this as an Urgot main he's actually quite sleeper-strong, but he's basically filling the same role as Darius, just with range.

Graves is pretty cancer and I can't even recall a time he didn't dominate jungle whenever he wasn't at 46% winrate

Sion - recurring balance trouble. Wish they would just replace his E because it's consistently the thing that makes him stupid.

Taric is dumb.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

Gangplank's barrels are central to his play but they didn't change him completely in doing so. They evolved his existing playstyle while also making it more interesting.

Now instead of just pressing Q on people (which he still does) he has a mechanic for him and his opponent to play around that allows him to enhance his Nuke.

he is still fundamentally the same. he just has more depth than before.

Yorick is also in my eyes, retaining his core playstyle or lobbing ghouls at people while running them down. It just isn't as brain dead as it was before.

Taric is literally just his old self but better and with more skill expression.

His Q is basically the same but AoE. his E was made a delayed AoE skillshot. His W was a shield instead of just ambient armor, meaning it still has the same function but isn't invisible power. His ULt is still a high moment of power for all allies around him for its duration.

I hated the Soraka rework at first but she, at her core, still retains the core gameplay of "land Qs so you can healing people more and use E to zone off and silence casters". So yea.

Galiö5 votes

Galio item 3070 item 3070

:((((((

Axzarious4 votes

Then there's the lore reworks where they delete the original champions, like with Xerath and Karthas. Fiora was also a disaster.

2B Father Servo4 votes

Every time I see these posts criticising reworks. I always stop reading when people talk about poppy, aatrox,and galio

You guys are looking back through rose colored glasses. No one played popp,galio, or aatrox before there reworks they were fundamentally broken champs who would be too strong if they were strong or weak otherwise. Aatrox could not be balanced and poppy would definitely delete people if she was buffed before her rework. Galio, just plain sucked.

Personality? Honestly besides aatrox can't really tell you what personality poppy and galio had pre-rework. They weren't really interesting.

Every one wants to bash reworks that completely change heroes. But yet they never give credit on what riot actually does keep from the old champ. Reworks worked because now I can expect to see poppy or galio or aatrox every now and then versus almost never.

Galiö1 votes

New Galios play rate is .08% higher right now than before his rework? With less mains and one tricks?

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

New Galios play rate is .08% higher right now than before his rework? With less mains and one tricks?

Because Riot gutted him due to them playing favourite when it comes to pro play, and not because he was reworked to be weak, unviable, and subsequently unpopular?

Galiö1 votes

So like Galio in season 2?

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

So like Galio in season 2?

And?

It's not a problem of the rework itself and has nothing to do with it, but the way Riot balances the game.

Galiö1 votes

That is the problem of the rework itself AND the game. Certain champs can be gutted and never compensated. Galio had most of his core items removed AND nerfed since season 2 but still held a 53-55% winrate which shows there was nothing wrong with the champ just mo one cared to play him.

It's like the curse of the Voice Actor.

Ivern is good, mains have an average 60% winrate but he never sees the light of day.

Is that a reason to rework ivern? Very good champ, specific style, just unpopular?

Boop Daddy 1 votes

The people that actually played and liked Galio weren't catered to at all. Which is why he was scrapped and replaced. Which is why you'll only ever see the few people that played Galio complain about it on the boards. That's simple logic. For the people who did main him, they actually have something to complain about; it's not rose colored glasses.

The Soulforged3 votes

As a former poppy main, I agree. Her personality and role on the team are polar opposites.

Late Game Kayle3 votes

Sometimes it feels like a coinflip which champion gets to maintain their old playstyle. As much as I loved old Aatrox, I admit that he had to go. However the rework was handled quite poorly. I find it hard to believe that it was impossible for him to keep his old AA heavy playstyle. Especially considering they managed to preserve it in Irelia, who used to be considered one of the most stat-checky champs of all time.

SEKAI3 votes

Galio is more faithful than WW once you get past the aesthetic. WW lost his old playstyles, all of his old builds, and his original lore character was completely remoeved with a gigantic thematic change barring the sole element that he's still a werewolf (now chemically so and not magically so); he's as good as a new champ. Meanwhile Galio has the same role, is built and played almost the same, and the character is literally the old one but with an actual character now.

And what's with Poppy being the least "faithful"? She really only lost her R, and only because it is impossible to balance, as it made Poppy able to engage 1v5, 1shot a person in melee range in the middle of the enemy team (or even multiple, if she's fed enough), and get out relatively unharmed. So how do you suppose to balance a spell like that, without either making it too overbearing but at the same time not too trash? Well, it's obviously too hard and Riot just opted for removing it entirely, can't blame them. Now, I'm aware that Xin Zhao currently has a variant of the old Poppy ulti, only loosely connected actually but hey, however Xin needed the face lift from his old horrible ulti that really is a waste of spell slot barring 1 specific instance of player interaction (so much so people nearly don't ever use it for its utility, but generally as a finisher of a combo for dps only) so there is nothing wrong having some of the old Poppy R's attribute migrate into Xin's current R; they fit kinda nicely and the round-2 seems to work far more healthily than first time around. But point stands, Poppy only lost a single spell out of her old kit, having the same personality, and emphasise on the tank build that she is MEANT to be played in instead of the Assassin Poppy that spawned because her old ulti was super dumb, is NOT "unfaithful".

Aatrox is a big change, sure. But then again, he has always felt like an extra, both in gameplay, and in lore. He was just Trynd v2 in-game, and a reminder character for the existence of Darkins in the lore (which Riot totally forgot about it entirely for many years, and now remember it but remember it so much they revamp their story entirely); other than that, Aatrox really served not much purpose. His existence never really mattered (beyond being a pain in the ass to balance in gameplay, and still is), and his change really shouldn't be such a big deal.

I say, people often determine "faithfulness" based on shallow factors, assuming they even used any. I mean why would someone like OP determine Irelia as a faithful rework when she lost almost everything in her old kit barring Q, has her character and personality changed entirely, so as to say the current Irelia has nothing to do with the old Irealia (as well as the aforementioned WW); but then criticise Galio as an unfaithful one when the biggest change in his design is his colour scheme change that only occurred because Demacia's national colour went from blue to white and the fact he is upgraded from having no personality to actually having something?<Appendix 1>

This isn't to say that the likes of Warwick isn't a good rework, but you have to seriously re-evaluate your metric for measuring what constitutes a good rework or not. I evaluate on the basis of whether or not a champion's spiritual essence is kept in lore and gameplay, and yes, it is so for Warwick, and the same for Galio; there are bad reworks, obviously, Malz rework is still pretty bad and just-release Morde rework was an utter nightmare. It's just that I often see people talking shit about reworks on objectively okay/so-so or even good ones, and it makes me scratch my head.

.........

Appendix:

  1. Don't give me that "old Galio was wise", "old Galio was sadder". Old Galio had zero personality, and if anything, his barely existent quotes and other sources indicated that Galio was barely sentient; and he was mourning for the death of his maker. New Galio is sad because of his existential crisis on top of the death of his literal maker, and even sadder, he tries so hard to be the symbol of peace and justice for the people of Demacia given that's the sole point of his creation that he feels he has an obligation to fulfill no matter what, while hiding all of his internal struggles from others. That's a far different level of intelligence and sorrow the old Galio never reached).
Moody P6 votes

Galio does not have the same role. He's an (heinously overloaded) front line tank-mage with semi global presence and an abundance of CC. Old Galio was a mid-back line poke/burst mage with a strong peel move that could be used offensively if he had Flash, or a team that could get him close. Playstyle is only sort of the same in lane, and that's not really a good thing because New Galio is as big of a stonewall as Malzahar since he can just spam waveclear until roaming time or teamfights, only now he's much tankier right off the bat and has 2 hard CCs for you if you dare try to fight him.

New Galio is, by a huge margin, one of the worst designs ever to grace League. He is bad at nothing and good at everything, and the fact he's gotten trampled by the balance team just to keep him out of pros is telling. Their solution to this kit was to just stuff it with everything and make it look cool; there was obviously no long-term plan for a stable pick compared to his previous irrelevance.

SEKAI1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pAR9B2IR,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2018-08-24T09:40:24.083+0000)

Galio does not have the same role. He's an (heinously overloaded) front line tank-mage with semi global presence and an abundance of CC. Old Galio was a mid-back line poke/burst mage with a strong peel move that could be used offensively if he had Flash, or a team that could get him close. Playstyle is only sort of the same in lane, and that's not really a good thing because New Galio is as big of a stonewall as Malzahar since he can just spam waveclear until roaming time or teamfights, only now he's much tankier right off the bat and has 2 hard CCs for you if you dare try to fight him.

New Galio is, by a huge margin, one of the worst designs ever to grace League. He is bad at nothing and good at everything, and the fact he's gotten trampled by the balance team just to keep him out of pros is telling. Their solution to this kit was to just stuff it with everything and make it look cool; there was obviously no long-term plan for a stable pick compared to his previous irrelevance.

Have you even played the old Galio, or know what his kit was and supposed to be? Because outside of the on-hit shield and the shitty wind buff thingy that went out of use after level 3, Galio is literally the same champ just with stuff shifted around and things altered slightly here and there and some additions in place for the 2 things removed.

He still builds like a mage, and plays by passively poking and farming while looking for an engage to run in and taunt the enemy team. The only real difference is that he engages more reliably now with the dash in replacement for the non-existent MS buff and the new ulti that allows him to actually get into fights without the need to burn Flash every single time like he used to need. Those aspects that ended up being removed and replaced were not in any way a "feature" of him, they're just archaic designs that have been invalidated by the changing course of the game's development and needed to be rid off and improved. And the rework did just that for them.

Remember, there is a reason why Galio's dash first required him to backstep which can be easily body blocked if attempted to be used as an escape, and can not go through terrains so as to intentionally hinder its mobility. Because the spell is only supposed to provide him with pseudo mobility and not the real deal, which is the same as old Galio's E. Recall that the old E was as it was due to the fact Galio was released in the time when the vast majority of the champs were immobile, and so the old E has become useless in today's climate, and they gave it the quality of life improvement it needed and that's it.

The only really new change to Galio's kit is his new ulti. But then again, it is so because an AoE taunt as an ultimate can never be balanced, and so it's moved to normal spell with shorter effect, while the ulti becomes the Flash component of his old routine of Flash+Ulti. Whatever the new ulti is, it's heaps healthier than leaving him as that he needed to burn Flash for every big fights, which is clearly unsustainable. It's not even like it pushed out other champ's niche when it comes to jumping across the map, given Galio's ulti has to level 3 times to have the range Pantheon's R does since level 6, and also don't have the privilege of jumping to anywhere in the region much like Pantheon but only the allies within the region; similarly the range is also smaller than TF's teleport for the same reason, and minus global champion vision; and obviously it also doesn't push out Shen's ulti, because Shen's ulti is global version of Galio's but minus the knockup. One can clearly see the designer tried quite hard to keep Galio in character with his original design, by giving him reliability he clearly needed and tried in their power to not make him mobile which was not an intended goal of the champ (just-reworked Galio was a problem tho, but has since been nerfed on various fronts to match the intended vision; actually it was actually a bit too much when it comes to his damage gut but you get the deal).

And if you think his design is all over the place by being a generalist, that's also what Galio's kit has always been, especially in the environment of old League. He has always been tanky and a high sustain in-lane champion (with his on-hit regen shield), he has always had a non-focused kit design (a tank, mage, and enchanter support at the same time; hell, the fact he's an anti-mage with an AoE taunt should already signify the kind of kit cohesiveness he has always enjoyed), he has always been quite spammy with his waveclear (his old Q has SHORTER CD than even MAX LEVEL current Q).

The new Galio is as authentic of a rework as it gets, especially if your sole metric of "is this rework good" is entirely based on whether or not a champ is changed during rework (which is also quite odd where you seem to be entirely fine with WW and Irelia reworks even though the former has his technicalities entirely changed and the latter's original version was completely removed from the game apart from 1 single spell, which would mean you've contradicted your own rationale, or at least your "faithfulness" metric seems to be entirely arbitrary). That is very clear if you do any sort of actual assessment.

D357R0Y3R4 votes

congratulation on writing an entire essay about how good the rework of galio is when he's one of the worst champion in the game right now while being AS boring as old galio

and way more unhealthy too, if you think his current ult is healthy then you need to reconsider your thinking

SEKAI2 votes

{quoted}

congratulation on writing an entire essay about how good the rework of galio is when he's one of the worst champion in the game right now while being AS boring as old galio

It's almost like it's to do with Riot nerfing any champ they don't like seeing in pro play into dumpster, and have nothing to do with the faithfulness of a champ's rework.

Hell, if anything, if the old Galio plays just like the new one as you may have implied, wouldn't the rework be a success in retaining the champ's play pattern, which would add to my argument in the previous post?

and way more unhealthy too, if you think his current ult is healthy then you need to reconsider your thinking

And his kit was healthier, that one where he is required to use Flash for almost every engage and almost had an empty spell slot after the first few levels?

Moody P5 votes

His job wasn't to engage, so it kinda makes sense he needs outside help to do that. And old Galio, as a peel champion, was way healthier than what he does now, where he gets to leap across the map with an AOE that covers an entire lane in width. Old Galio was particularly vulnerable to getting CC'd out of ult, and he had plenty of counterplay in that he a) needed flash to ult and b) there's plenty of champs with AA stun modifiers or delayed CC that can anticipate ult and cancel it before he charges up. Granted, Riot doesn't care about any counterplay unless it's "dodge le skillshot," which is why this game is what it is right now.

And on the subject of taunts. Taunts are infinitely more effective against casters than AA champions. Who do you think Galio would rather have glued to him in his ult; the Annie with .8 AS and no AD, or the ulted Master Yi with 2.5 AS?

Nobody's denying Galio needed a rework, but what he got is just straight ass. The new rework was, essentially, a replacement of the champion, both in soul and gameplay. Having reliable access to his CC, which even as a normal spell is very powerful, is pretty broken. It was the right call balance-wise to gut Galio's base stats like they did, because he is the epitome of a Swiss Army knife champion. But given that he hasn't actually existed in a state where anybody/everybody with content with - since if he's even mediocre in soloQ he's a pick/ban for pro, if he's strong for soloQ then he's overbearing at all levels of play where coordination actually starts to become relevant - no, I wouldn't say this rework is good. The only way to keep him out of pro play, because his kit is just that strong, is to completely hammer everything else into the dirt.

It's not a faithful rework. Galio is fundamentally a different champion; your examples with Warwick are almost entirely based on his builds, which is kind of moot because Warwick was one of the most build-flexible champions in the game. Before Riot added a ton of cancer on-hits, he was more than comfortable running full tank and being an R bot. Full tank happens to be his best build right now because, like it was before, it does most everything that Warwick needs to do. He's still a strong chasing/pick-off champion with drain-tank potential and a focus on auto attacking. He still does everything that you would actually pick Warwick for. Loss of his team AS steroid is something I lament, because I think steroids and team utility is really cool, but it's understandable because Riot has been against the idea for a while now, hence why most old fighters who had that stuff no longer do Sion

SEKAI1 votes

Galio is still bad in engaging, if you haven't noticed. That's why most of the time he engages by using ulti rather than E due to its short range, how long it takes to execute the damn thing, and inability to cross terrains. So the difference is that Galio no longer needs to either run into fights physically or burn Flash just to engage, which is something nobody should be crying over at their loss.

He is built the same, has the same playstyle just with slightly more reliability now, and his design is very much relate-able with his initial pitch. I have no idea what even is bad in your eyes. If Galio rework can only be good if it keeps all of the garbage clunkiness, archaic, and straight up bad things like the old E, then I'm sorry, no rework designer with a brain would try and keep those things.

.......

While this is impossible, I'm willing to put my life on the line in a bet that if Galio rework was released today and his fucking colour scheme is still blue, we wouldn't have this discussion with Galio at all.

Why, you ask? Because almost all of the VGUs people continuously bitch about all have 1 common elements, their reworked VISUAL design being different in some way from their original. People bitch about Galio because of the colour scheme, in spite of all the pretentious reason everyone conjured out to try and justify it (I know this because no one was playing Galio, so if you clearly didn't care about him then, why would you even suddenly care about him now?); people bitch about Swain for quite some time solely because of his new hair and colour scheme; people began bitching about Aatrox solely because his first reveal had his banner wing removed; things like that. Even though, upon actual assessment, apart from Aatrox, all of their kits and playstyles and overall designs are all reminiscent (KEYWORD) of their initial design, and the reworks are honestly not bad in any stretch of the imagination.

You want more evidence? Well let's see, let's look at the opposite side of this. With reworks that people praise for being "faithful": Irelia has everything removed from her old kit and lore design with the sole exception of Q, literally apart from Q EVERYTHING is changed; people think it's faithful. Warwick is played completely differently with only the high level idea still the same but just about every single detail is changed, including the lore which sees old Warwick completely removed; people think it's faithful. Urgot has his entire kit removed barring 1 single element of "1 spell may be used as a tag for another", and his lore completely changed apart from the fact he was still an executioner from Noxus; people think he's faithful.

So how do people think change itself makes rework bad but then praise reworks that change the champ inside out? How do we resolve the deadlock? Well, we don't.

People only really bitch about rework not really because of kit and lore identity, but aesthetic. Shallow as fuck.

Galiö3 votes

New galio has one ability from his old kit?!?! Has a completely different build path... Loses to previously favorable match ups?

WW is way closer to old WW than Galio is to old Galio.

SEKAI2 votes

{quoted}

New galio has one ability from his old kit?!?! Has a completely different build path... Loses to previously favorable match ups?

WW is way closer to old WW than Galio is to old Galio.

Yeah, clearly...

WW rework that removed his AD carry build, on-hit 1 shot build, halving his innate on-hit sustain/leech, removing his AS build entirely making WW not able to even build AS due to his new W and forcing him to build Hydra (entirely intended, because WW has a Hydra active animation, the first champ to have it I think), removal of his team AS steroid, removing his ability to toggle his 'hunt' to play mind games etc... the old WW's playstyle is completely removed; similarly, the lore character Warwick was also completely removed with only very loose connection to his former lore (Warwick is still a werewolf, and has some sort of relationship with Singed, and that's where the connection ends).

I swear, people don't compare and contrast objectively but arbitrarily.

.....

Also Galio does not have a completely different build path.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFwp8uXj9lg a compilation video of old Galio

http://www.op.gg/champion/galio/statistics/mid

What's that, they all build similarly in the veins of mages?

Brutalitops011 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, clearly...

WW rework that removed his AD carry build, on-hit 1 shot build, halving his innate on-hit sustain/leech, removing his AS build entirely making WW not able to even build AS due to his new W and forcing him to build Hydra (entirely intended, because WW has a Hydra active animation, the first champ to have it I think), removal of his team AS steroid, removing his ability to toggle his 'hunt' to play mind games etc... the old WW's playstyle is completely removed; similarly, the lore character Warwick was also completely removed with only very loose connection to his former lore (Warwick is still a werewolf, and has some sort of relationship with Singed, and that's where the connection ends).

I swear, people don't compare and contrast objectively but arbitrarily.

.....

Also Galio does not have a completely different build path.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFwp8uXj9lg a compilation video of old Galio

http://www.op.gg/champion/galio/statistics/mid

What's that, they all build similarly in the veins of mages?

As someone who enjoyed Warwick both old and new, the old Warwick playstyle was NOT completely removed. It was refined to perfection.

You couldn't really turn on old Warwick's E to mind game people either, because they KNEW you were close by if they were hunted by it and it didn't give him movement speed. ANYONE who knew even a fraction of what they were doing would see that above their heads and run. New Warwick's W can be used to mind game, because if you're below half health, anywhere on the map, you're playing safer knowing that Warwick could be right there waiting for the right time to jump on you and kill you.

Who cares about a team wide attack speed steroid when, now, you have a personal attack speed steroid that puts it up to at least 2.0% rank 3 without any attack speed items? Who cares about building attack speed AT ALL at that point? And what's this you're saying about his drain tankiness being halved? His passive damage was more than doubled, the heal gated behind being half health or less, but being TRIPLED if you're below 1/4 health. You Q with that triple heal on passive up (let's say passive does 35 damage, heal is for 105, + q's heal) I've done this and jumped back up to over half with 1 Q. I've also ulted from less than 100 health and jumped back up to half. The healing is ridiculous.

Why would you build damage when you have high enough base and % max health damage in your kit to easily deal the most damage on the team with Titanic Hydra into full tank? And is that not what old Warwick also did, to an extent, any time he was seen? 1 damage item (in this case, Devourer back when it existed) -> full tank?

Granted, it is less easy to 1v3 on him now because his attack speed is gated behind the enemy's health if you don't build attack speed (item 3091 is really good because it does 40 on-hit magic damage and lowers your magic resist, which I guarantee you will be more beneficial than reducing their armor having looked at damage comparison graphs. Damage with passive, q, and r are all magic and you easily will deal a majority of your damage as magic even without building any AP or on-hit magic damage). Last Stand makes the low health heal even more ridiculous if you go it instead of Coup de Grace because it increases your damage by 11%. That 11% increased damage means also 11% increased damage on passive, which means 11% increased heal if under half or 33% if under 1/4.

His old lore was also some of the weakest writing in League of Legends and it made absolutely no sense with this idea of him being a hunter. It was literally Beauty and the Beast. Why would the Beast from Beauty and the Beast be hunting people down and ripping them apart? His new lore makes a lot more sense and shifts his target from Soraka to the Chem Barons and anyone who gets in his way.

Jerry SeinfeId3 votes

Poppy literally only needs some tweaks to turn her into a beefy bruiser again and she'd be perfect. All she lost was her ult that was the main reason she needed a rework. everything else is still somewhat there. Her jungle clear also became better so i like that. She's been one of the best reworks so far only faling short compared to WW.

Brutalitops012 votes

Riot has already said about Ezreal, "Ezreal's gameplay has held up really well over all the years, but his visuals simply haven't. Ezreal players also aren't happy with his current W because it's pretty much completely worthless unless you're playing AP Ez, and even then, Q is typically better after you finish Lich Bane." So, those are the only parts of his kit they're even touching.

Morgana, while she still looks fine, her visuals don't tell you a whole lot about who she is as a person. In my opinion, they should change her visuals extensively to include much more visual language between her and Kayle (which is probably why they're reworking the sisters together), and, as they've already said that they're going to do, change the passive and W, and beyond that, leave her kit alone.

Kayle's visuals haven't held up nearly as well, and her gameplay is simplistic and boring in a similar way to Nunu's, and as such, I expect her rework to be of Nunu/Warwick quality level, keeping the identity of the character intact, but making it more fun and interesting to play, both as and against. I also expect a significant visual upgrade, and I really hope that they don't give her boob plates in the new model. Her model doesn't have boob plates in it, but her splash art does. They can find a way to make her obvious as female without the boob plates. However, there is a problem to studying real-world armor to achieve that end, as I don't think any culture anywhere ever made plate armor for women in their respective medieval periods, as women weren't well-respected in those days and the only time anyone would be wearing plate is if they were a knight. While, yes, there are several females who ascended to knighthood, such as Joan of Arc, they did so by impersonating men as women back then weren't allowed to do pretty much anything other than cook, clean, wash clothes, and make babies. Kayle needs to keep the knight/paladin-esque look, while Morgana needs to be the antithesis of that. And the antithesis of a knight/paladin would be the antithesis of authority. It would be a punk, someone who breaks from the norm. I honestly fully hope that her hair turns from the dark purple that it is right now into slowly flowing into an almost electric blue at the bottom of her hair, cover an eye with it, give her more clothes, but rip them up, make them look like Kayle's, but dirty, torn, and battered as a way of showing that they come from the same place, but Kayle accepts it while Morgana rejects it.

I got a bit too into art there for a moment. Artist in me coming out.

Regarding gameplay hopes for Kayle, I again have high hopes. I do think that they're going to try to make the "melee bot laner" thing work again, and I hope that they can get it to work better than it did last time, because the last time we got that, it was Mordekaiser, who was completely way overtuned and BUSTED AS HELL for a couple of patches and then gutted back into obscurity, never to be heard from again. With Kayle, I hope that they keep the sorta hybrid AP leaning scaling she has right now, but give her more interaction, more chance to punish, and I kinda hope that they give her a reason to be picked in lieu of an ADC, but not alienate her from top or jungle. Kayle, I'm pretty sure, is a champion who has played every single role throughout the years in one meta or another. Her most common pick place has always been top, but mid has also always been in the background as another place you could play her. She was a jungler for a little while (though honestly that was because Devourer was busted, not because of Kayle herself), and a long time ago, she was a support. In the most recent "No ADC's in bot lane" meta we had for a little while, Kayle was probably the single strongest pick in bot lane for a patch or 2, too. I hope that she has some role diversity like that when they rework her.

I also really enjoy playing Kayle support because of the dive potential of that ult with someone crazy strong in the early game like a Draven. You hit 6 and immediately just throw yourselves at them, reckless abandon for your own life, and when you time the ult just right to save Draven, get that double kill under turret, and get the hell outta dodge.... OOOOHH I love it.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

and I really hope that they don't give her boob plates in the new model.

why?

Brutalitops011 votes

{quoted}

why?

They serve no real artistic purpose beyond shouting "HEY! THERE'S SOME BOOBS HERE!"

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

They serve no real artistic purpose beyond shouting "HEY! THERE'S SOME BOOBS HERE!"

You can make such a general statement about literally any visual aspect of a characters design. Might as well play as white boxes by this logic.

I also find this offensive to well endowed women, who are people too. Breast size has a large amounts of communicative cues that shouldn't be ignored just because you have some weird adversity to basic human body parts.

Brutalitops011 votes

{quoted}

You can make such a general statement about literally any visual aspect of a characters design. Might as well play as white boxes by this logic.

I also find this offensive to well endowed women, who are people too. Breast size has a large amounts of communicative cues that shouldn't be ignored just because you have some weird adversity to basic human body parts.

You clearly have no idea what I mean by "boob plates." Historical armor, even female armor, has breastplates, yes, but they don't conform to the shape of a woman's boobs. Boob plates do serve a purpose in a character that is supposed to be armored up, but is also supposed to look sexy. Compare Kayle's splash art to Bridgette from Overwatch. In her splash art, Kayle's armor conforms around her breasts. Bridgette's armor, however, looks more like a realistic breastplate. It's a single piece of metal that goes straight across the chest, with no gap in the middle that exists for the sole purpose of showing cleavage. The gap or conformity in the middle designed to give a view of the cleavage is a boob plate. The straight across is a breastplate. They have different effects on the character design. Kayle seems to me like she would embody an almost Christian sort of holiness, being an angel, and as such, with the Christian worldview being that sexuality is not something meant to be out in the open, for all to see, but between a person and his/her partner, Kayle should have a breastplate.

Kárma2 votes

Karma [zombie-brand-facepalm]

AquariusGine2 votes

Galio Aatrox Poppy are my least favorite reworks. OP you've described it perfectly

GelsominoKiller2 votes

I wholeheartedly agree. Rework should be faithful to the source material; personality, appearance, lore and gameplay should be preserved as much as possible.

I understand that sometimes that's not feasible and one or more of those aspects must be rebuilt from ground up. Old Sion, for example, had nothing worth preserving. Nonetheless I was astonished by how much of old kit made it through in a renewed, modernized, healthier fashion. This ability to reinvent the champion is what makes a rework truly great.

As a side note, while a rework can be very well done as they expand and better their old selves, sometimes the result can still be problematic.

In short, I strongly disagree with your connection between how much of a rework is faithful to the original and how much it is a balance problem. Irelia and Akali, for example, might have succeeded extremely well on delivering their respective fantasies, but remain a huge clusterfuck of discutible design decisions. For one, I believe Akali lacks meaningful counterplay (but this can be solved) and Irelia is just another bullshit ass fighter with too much on her kit.

Pika Fox2 votes

Galio, poppy, and aatrox dont have "the least faith". They were changed for good reason, and their original kits arent returning. Ever.

Ahris2 votes

Ahri reworks are probably the WORST type any champ can get.

BlackEyesBlue1 votes

OK I know to each their own and all but...

Poppy has been my main since her rework! I love who she is now. Old Poppy? She was guilty of the cardinal crime of all gaming. she was SO BORING!

I only played old Poppy a handful of times and to me at least, she was just about the least likeable champ in the game. Her kit was boring, her dialog was terrible, her backstory was non-sense, She didn't even have a laugh!

I think she is one of there greatest triumphs in the simple way that they started with a character I down right disliked and turned her into one that I love! :D

[poppy-wink]

Boop Daddy 4 votes

Boring is subjective lol.

BlackEyesBlue2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Boop Daddy ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=pAR9B2IR,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2018-08-24T19:55:11.656+0000)

Boring is subjective lol.

Completely agree! That's why I find it annoying when Riot tries to tell me Yasuo LeeSin Zed Rengar ect, are popular because they're "The most fun"...

Poppy Ziggs ZoeTeemo and Evelynn are the champions I personally find most fun but people don't have to agree with me on it. :/

Galiö4 votes

She wasnt really boring, just ugly and busted (and by busted I mean late gameplay was unfun and not just the way the model looked).

IceKingChernobog1 votes

Galio rework is that he can do everything or he can do nothing and for majority of the time and as riot dictate, he will do nothing. They need to decide what galio is going to be than beat around the bush with this character. I never really understood why aatrox needed a rework, when there were other champions that could have used that slot like morde, or pantheon. Instead we get a rework for a hero that didn't needed it and the aatrox players didn't want either.

LeftyRaydy1 votes

AAtrox was in a terrible state due to his kit for a while. he was not terrible, but at the same time his kit wasnt exactly "fun" to play. His rework looks more interactive I have never played it yet but his old kit was so predictable and boring.

SugeMinPikk1 votes

Do Yi and Garen count?

Deathfall1 votes

Yep. When they change a champion too much and refuse to listen to the playerbase, it is really bad.

Karma Skarner Mordekaiser

Oleandervine1 votes

So how is Poppy any different than Nunu? Nunu had has Q and R preserved, and new abilities in his passive, W, and E. Poppy, likewise, had her W and E preserved (with extra stuff on W), and a new passive, Q and R. Poppy's rework is just as faithful, it just made her less grumpy. In fact, her VGU and character design and what was preserved on her is no different than anyone else you listed.

LeftyRaydy1 votes

2 of the Best Reworks in my opinion are Sion and Poppy.

I hate poppy though because she is doing too much damage for being tanky AF, but these champs before rework were so awful being either super op or garbage. Poppy's old ult was beyond broken which is why she was kept in a terrible state for so long.

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