Dear Riot, some thoughts from an Immobile Melee player

HateDaddy··98 votes·6,195 views

You have ruined this game for me. No seriously, with each passing patch, you continue to display the unwillingness to do anything to help immobile melee champions when there's several easy solutions that would reduce the strengths of over mobile champions, both range and melee alike, and strengthen the power of immobile melee champions while keeping both gameplay and counterplay well within reach. But you don't care, you aren't concerned with this. Your concerns are clear: releasing tons of new champions with hyper mobility, hard CC, insane damage and random utility galore with limited resource costs, if any costs at all. Props on Bard though, he actually seems cool and has weaknessss with decision making being important, unlike your last God knows how many new releases.

Why am I upset? Why does this suck for me? You continue to shove ranged top laners down our throats. Right now, on PBE, Ryze has buffs that are basically reverting his nerfs. Yes I'm aware this is PBE and its not final. But the fact that you're even considering this baffles me when we have evidence from the last 4 seasons what happens when you buff him. He breaks top lane until he's nerfed and becomes trash tier after that because his design is broken as fuck and you refuse to rework him in any meaningful way, instead you buff and nerf him in cycles and keep him broken until worlds so you can have him dominate them for some reason, I have no clue why. You know what happens when you do this and you don't care. Kennen is already strong, Irelia is getting nerfed so one of Ryzes hardest lane match ups in top is going away while he's being buffed. You don't care. You don't care about my experience at all.

Let me tell you exactly what's going to happen if this goes through for Ryze. He will instantly be a strong top laner, he will be strong as hell. He will still rush RoA and FH vs AD tops and SV vs AP tops then he will build righteous glory afterwards which will increase his damage spike and durability. You won't nerf him, instead you'll nerf righteous glory because of him even though it was intended to be an item to help some of the less mobile melee champions.

At this point I'm convinced you literally couldn't care less about how we feel and that's fine. This is your game after all. But for 3 seasons in a row now, I've watchdd everything designed to help melee champions get nerfed (early MR, armor items, anti kite items etc) while you randomly throw us insignificant bones then nerfing it anyway. You've done nothing but stick a big middle finger at me and I've tried to be understanding realizing there aren't easy solutions out there but guess what? You're sticking it to me and the champs I play again just by considering this.

I realize this will be downvote spammed and fine, fair enough. I'm frustrated. Im frustrated as hell. And I realize this will go ignored and even if it's not and some rioter does post, it will be a generic ass response that seems like its some automated response that's along the lines of "We are sorry for not communicating, we suck at communication, we want to get better at communication and it won't happen again" and then that'll be all it is.

I'm honestly at the point where I want to quit this game and I hate saying that because I love it. But I've received nothing but "fuck you and your champions" from riot from every department of their team from balancing to new champions that it's clear to me that sooner or later, it's just not worth me playing this game anymore expecting anything otherwise.

114 Comments

DomainSpecific24 votes

Since my other post got downvoted due to going against the circlejerk, I will make another detailed post, countering some of the arguments.

You have ruined this game for me..

You mention several "easy ways" to fix this problems. Could you explain more about this? Because there are "easy" ways to solve the problem with hyper mobility. Also, Riot is not releasing many champions currently, they are slowing down trying to fix the problems.

Why am I upset?...

Ryze is being reworked right now. While this buff is way too big IMO, they have on their watch to do something about Ryze's oppressiveness. Also, Irelia's nerf won't hit her until level 8, and at that point is only 10 less damage. She will have 0 problems against Ryze still. While they care about your experiences, they also care about Ryze players, who have had to use an extremely weak champion for a long time now.

At this point...

Doran's shield reducing single target magic damage help melees to deal with range, while not too much. Ryze in particular gets all his spells reduced by Doran's Shield. While nerfing early MR was a wrong move, I think that immobile melees shouldn't have much problem against Ryze if they manage to play/build against him well.

I realize this will be downvote spammed...

First of all, you are going with the circlejerk. You know that pretty well. It is me who will be downvoted even though I am trying to explain everything as best as I can. Second, Riot has done a great job lately. Response for patch 5.4 was terrible, and they are working hard to fix that mistake (look at patch 5.5 and 5.6, tons of buffs for champions and nerfing the stronger ones).

I'm honestly at the point where I want to quit this game...

Dunno what to say, this is just random ranting.

Champion Skin1 votes

ehh I belive Ryze E is an AoE spell (and as thus has reduced effectivness from spell vamp and weaker slow from Rylai's) and will not be reduced by Doran's shield

DomainSpecific2 votes

I am not too sure, actually.

Doran's Shield "reduces single-target spell damage by 8".

According to the wikia, Ryze E is "a single target chain area of effect ability".

It does get weaker slow & spell vamp, but I am not sure how it interacts with the shield.

Champion Skin3 votes

Almost all spells that hits multiple targets (even with individual hits... like Swain ult or Ryze E) are coded as AoE or multi target spells... exceptions to this is Ahri W (I think?) and Karthus Q can both be counted as AoE or Single target depending on the amounts of targets hit

Some stuff like that are a bit weird.... Like what dashes deals their damage regardless of if they reach their target or not (some dashes would deal their damage even when interrupted or stopped by things like Azir wall)

ProfDrDeath4 votes

Also, Irelia's nerf won't hit her until level 8, and at that point is only 10 less damage.

Not totally correct.

In certain match-ups, it is definitely more efficient for Irelia to max E over W first, especially since she starts with Flask and Pots and hence does not need the sustain as much.

Maxing E gives her a strong magic damage nuke (the base damage is really high, especially early). Plus, longer CC duration.

YOU BEEN WARNED11 votes

That's nonesense and you know it, why do you pretend to have read nothing of the post's arguments ??

First point: He mentions Riot's intention of Righteous Glory being an immobile melee helping item, now Ryze being buffed mean he will take advantage of it and get it nerfed, because he somewhat falls under the immobile category. From Riot's recent behavior in terms of balance changes ( such as item 3100 nerf and DFG's removal ) his fears are accurate, the item; which helps against mobile champions item 3800 will get nerfed instead of the broken champion that is Ryze.

Point two: Oh really? Ryze is being reworked so we buff him? Even though his kit is cancerous? What about these guys? Poppy Yorick that have been denied buffs for eternity ? Ryze on the other hand has been viable so many times over the seasons, he by no means deserves these buffs. That being said, having a counter to a champion =/= that champion is balanced. Toplane Ryze invalidates over half the toplane roster and OUTSCALES them as a ranged champion, and that is beyond ridiculous.

Point 3: Doran's shield is a lane survival item, it does not help fighting Ryze like item 1055 does nor does it block his E. If he naturally outscales them then there is no point in playing a stall game, you have to risk roaming or getting a kill on him. Defensive stats won't help that.

Incidentally, guess what would help against him? item 3800. But how will you use it against him if he causes the item to get nerfed? Or even if you do, he will have it too. Then we will have the item 3068 design argument and Riot will nerf it because of #diversity.

4: Because the past 7-9 patches were terrible and now we have 1 or 2 patches that are good, does not automatically mean Riot has improved their ways. God only knows what is going on at the balance HQ, as troll and unpredictable their balance/rework team is Ahri Cassiopeia Skarner Kalista BardVeigar , I wouldn't count on them if they don't take community feedback consistently.

5: This is not random ranting, learn to have compassion to fellow summoners. Of course you wouldn't feel anything if you don't experience what he has been going through. These are the feelings conveyed by the previous and upcoming balance changes that leave one in confusion and frustration of Riot's balancing policy. If anything is random right now, it is Riot's behavior. I've had enough of AP champions swarming toplane.

Axests3 votes

i have 1 point i'd like to make about all these damn veigar complaints. I've played a few games as veigar and there are 2 things i've realized

  1. he actually has counterplay now other than buy qss and run, his stun was way too point click for a the bursty mage he is
  2. His new q is amazing for farming lane, and helps him stay away from the targets that are more difficult for him to deal with. I think veigar isn't weaker or stronger than he used to be, i think he's at about the same level with slightly less damage (not that the damage amount matters vs squishies).
ArkenStorm1 votes

i agree, except i think he is stronger. moar farming = moar ap = MOAR DAMAGES

SephAgro4 votes

God you people are getting my nerves. His ultimate does 20% less damage. With dfg removed he does an additional 20% less damage. AP farm only power spikes during the late game, where everyone and their grandmother is buying banshees and mercs. Please, please just shut up.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Y1Pggprs-the-veigar-changes-all-out-math

clickhead3 votes

You just said that Poppy and Yorick needed buffs. I don't think you've ever played against those champions,

lojician2 votes

No he didn't. He said they were denied buffs. They are champions that are suboptimal at winning games but are kept that way because they're cancer. Ryze is also a champion who is currently suboptimal at winning games and should be kept that way because he's cancer.

Reazale7 votes

checks Veigar winrate Still 43-45%, guess ppl have adapted somewhat... still bad after the nerf. checks Veigar PBE changes Guess they want to change him into some kind of Xerath but without the ult or his W, guess he didnt have an identity.

Yeah , i can understand this guy and why he doesnt trust Riot , not after 5.4 or how they SO nerfed Zed splitpushing LOL, such a big nerf!!! :S

Lately Riot has been making changes that dont truly address the problem or they go way to hard on it , but only if its a champ they dont like (cos be now we all know they are playing favorites).

2pudge1cup2 votes

So people who you don't agree with are circle jerkers? Ok...

The fact of the matter is that immobile champs in general have been balanced disproportionately worse than mobile ones for years now. Denying it at this point is just moronic.

Hellioning15 votes

Wait, you complain about mobility and then complain about Ryze, who has one speed boost on his ult and that's it?

Like, I get how hard it can be to be immobile, I love playing immobile casters, but point and click CC needs to be in this game to deal with all those mobile people.

KING OF MASKS14 votes

He's specifically complaining about the state of immobile melee champions. It's right there in the title.

Immobile ranged champions don't have it quite so bad in comparison. Because, y'know. They're ranged.

Hellioning4 votes

I am aware of that, I was bringing up my love for immobile casters in an attempt to empathize with the OP.

SaltyKracka2 votes

The think about immobile casters is that they are so very very often the reason that immobile melee champs top have problems. Kennen? Kayle? Rumble? Swain? Lissandra? Any of these come to mind?

I mean, Ryze's reign of terror has already been brought up, and if you don't remember that...

Photos of Ghosts3 votes

Kennen and Lissandra are all but immobile.

Hellioning4 votes

The entire reason all of those champions go top is because they can't compete mid. Maybe they don't have much waveclear, or they're melee. That's a problem with the current situation on the map, not necessarily the champions. Most ranged champions are strong top lane because most top laners are melee. People will pick things that let them have a large advantage.

If anything, Riot needs to buff Doran's shield or something, because top lane is even stupider than usual.

lojician2 votes

I'm so tired of people claiming people take things top because they can't go mid. No, they take things top because they're so strong at going top. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether they're viable mid or not.

You're right about d shield though. This whole thing started because melee solos were dependent on it to not get facerolled by range in lane and then riot gutted it.

DarksideEric2 votes

{quoted}

I'm so tired of people claiming people take things top because they can't go mid. No, they take things top because they're so strong at going top. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether they're viable mid or not.

"It has absolutely nothing to do with whether they're viable mid or not."

...except, y'know, it does. If something is unusable in one lane, players begin looking for a new place to use that Champion. You do realize that people recognized Ryze top is good because they looked at Ryze and evaluated his position, right?

Same reason why Zyra and Annie both went from mid to Support, same reason why Lulu and Soraka went from Support to mid / top, same reason why people use Quinn more as a top than an ADC.

"They're so strong at going top." How do you think people figure that out?

lojician1 votes

By taking them top and seeing if it works? You don't play eve top "because it can't be played mid".

I'm mostly annoyed at the dumbass excuses people were giving for lissandra being broken top lane. "Oh they shouldn't nerf lissandra because she only facerolls top as a result of not being viable mid. Otherwise people would totally just play her in a lane where she's balanced instead of one where she's broken." That's stupid as hell and would be even if they weren't completely wrong about her viability mid. Her facerolling of top only has to do with how she performs top, not mid. And if her top laning is too strong it should be nerfed without bringing mid into it.

DarksideEric2 votes

{quoted}

By taking them top and seeing if it works? You don't play eve top "because it can't be played mid".

I'm mostly annoyed at the dumbass excuses people were giving for lissandra being broken top lane. "Oh they shouldn't nerf lissandra because she only facerolls top as a result of not being viable mid. Otherwise people would totally just play her in a lane where she's balanced instead of one where she's broken." That's stupid as hell and would be even if they weren't completely wrong about her viability mid. Her facerolling of top only has to do with how she performs top, not mid. And if her top laning is too strong it should be nerfed without bringing mid into it.

"And if her top laning is too strong it should be nerfed without bringing mid into it."

Except for... that's kind of impossible. You can't nerf one without it having some sort of effect on the other.

And Eve is played in Jungle because she can't play in Mid, if she's even played at all. So, because she's a Jungler she should be nerfed there?

Nerf Lissandra's Armor so she's more easily beaten by melee AD bruisers top? You also just made her more easily killed by Zed and Talon (if Talon ever returns) or if someone decides to rotate Riven to Mid again (which people complained about).

Matthias911912 votes

Don't you main Trynd? At least I think that's who you are constantly whining about and demanding Ghost buffs for.

Last I checked he has a manaless dash and can become impossible to kill for 5 full seconds. The only thing keeping him from being an unstoppable wrecking machine is that you can CC and kite him.

All the actually immobile melees (Darius, Gangplank, Mordekaiser, Yorick) seem to be slated for buffs/reworks.

Zenthon Prime7 votes

He's a Plat I Nasus main. Ironically, Nasus is the hardest counter to Miss BS herself Kalista in the game.

Matthias91198 votes

I don't usually lump in Nasus and Cho'Gath with champs like Darius and Morde because they can be threatening without needing to build squishy. Being an immobile tank is very different than being an immoble DPS machine (or a weird-hybrid-pet-champ-thing, in Yorick's case.)

HateDaddy9 votes

{quoted}

I don't usually lump in Nasus and Cho'Gath with champs like Darius and Morde because they can be threatening without needing to build squishy. Being an immobile tank is very different than being an immoble DPS machine (or a weird-hybrid-pet-champ-thing, in Yorick's case.)

I like a lot of immobile champs, not just Nasus and Cho'Gath. I just don't bother playing any other ones because it's way too frustrating at this point.

Matthias91198 votes

Don't get me wrong -- Darius needs work, Morde is still struggling even after the adjustments they made, and Yorick has been a mess for years. Gangplank's overall power level seems okay, but his kit is wildly out of date.

Cho and Nasus have >50% winrates in solo queue all the way through Diamond. I mean, they definitely fall off a bit at higher tiers, but they can hold their own. You yourself have a 60% winrate with Nasus this season.

I'm not sure who else you would classify as an immobile melee. There are certainly low-mobility mages and ADCs, but they have other offsetting factors.

DomainSpecific7 votes

Olaf.

Matthias91195 votes

{quoted}

Olaf.

...the one that has a spammable ranged slow and completely ignores all CC when ulting? That Olaf?

I guess he doesn't technically have an MS boost or dash.

Rinky Dinky3 votes

He's actually fairly strong right now

Madra5 votes

{quoted}

He's actually fairly strong right now

Olaf needs to itemize too many different stats. And while he can seem tough in the lane against certain opponents, ("Everytime I try to get farm, he chunks me so hard!") when the team fights starts, he has to actually run into the back lines through the Maokai and the Sion then when he hits R, he loses all of his defensive stats at the time he probably needs them the most.

Sure, he can hold his own against other top tier junglers, but they'll never stick around and try to fight him. Rek'sai, Jarvan, Lee Sin, Nidalee, and Vi will just bounce over a wall after stealing a camp and that's the end of that. And that will happen all game long. Olaf will never be able to snowball the lanes like they can either. His ability to make plays in the lane requires a petri dish and a microscope compared to those junglers.

skippersd1 votes

Cho has a good win rate because he utterly scews up combo champs with his silence. That would include Riven, Katarina, leblanc, graves, and kinda most of the top tier champs. (kata is especially important, as she IS the bane of low elo)

As for Nasus. Nasus always punishes teams who can't shut him down, let that be an early camp, a really bad lane matchup, or a quick game. We are talking about soloQ. No one will nother with proper team comps.

Matthias91195 votes

Different champions are different. Film at 11.

If you want to talk about changes to make these champions more viable in competitive play, that's a different discussion.

HateDaddy21 votes

{quoted}

He's a Plat I Nasus main. Ironically, Nasus is the hardest counter to Miss BS herself Kalista in the game.

Kalisita buys QSS or her support buys Mikeals

I don't survive long enough to wither her a second time

Proelium2 votes

{quoted}

Don't you main Trynd? At least I think that's who you are constantly whining about and demanding Ghost buffs for.

Last I checked he has a manaless dash and can become impossible to kill for 5 full seconds. The only thing keeping him from being an unstoppable wrecking machine is that you can CC and kite him.

All the actually immobile melees (Darius, Gangplank, Mordekaiser, Yorick) seem to be slated for buffs/reworks.

Trundle

Yfrappefort12 votes

As a former Garen player, I feel your pain...

AmazingGoat11 votes

CC is supposed to be the counter to mobile champions. The problem is that CC actually counters immobile champions more than mobile champions, as it makes it so easy to punish immobile champions for even slightly bad positioning. No one thinks of Leona as a counter to Lucian or Graves, but everyone knows not to play Ashe or Varus into a Leona lane, as it is too easy to get ulted and chain CCed. Further, disengage CC counters immobile champions way more than mobile champions. The end result is that CC designed to counter mobility actually ends up screwing over immobile champions even more. As more and more champions have CC and mobility, immobile champions find themselves outclassed more and more.

This is true of stuns, but it is even more true of slows. Slowing a champion with a leap or dash or other mobility skill doesn't really reduce their mobility that much, as they can still use their mobility skill. But slowing a champion without a mobility skill is often times just as good as stunning them. This is all part of the uneven playing field immobile champions find themselves in.

Mobility is an issue, and I think at some level Riot does acknowledge it. There has to be a very real concern that if more and more champions with mobility are available, champions without mobility may find less and less room in team comps.

It may well be that there are network effects going on here. Late game, where one player getting caught out can be death, isn't a team only as mobile as its least mobile player? Bard's effect on this may be fascinating if he ever sees competitive play. It's possible that he will enable immobile champions to be played more, but it's also possible he will just further exacerbate the issue, as an immobile champion will have literally zero chance of running away from a team with a bard.

OP is mainly looking at immobile melee champions, but there's another related issue involving a class of champions that has as many issues as immobile bruisers: immobile skill shot mages. These champions lose effectiveness the more enemies have mobility. At one end of the spectrum, it becomes nearly impossible to land slow skill shots on hyper mobile champions like Kalista. For example, trying to land Nami's bubble on Kalista is an exercise in futility, as she can keep hopping around as long as she has a target in range. You basically have to guess which direction she is going to hop, but late game with enough attack speed she can sometimes hop twice before your bubble lands. Slowing her doesn't even help, as movement speed slows don't actually reduce her mobility as long as she is attacking.

There is a form of CC that counters mobility skills more directly: silence. Unfortunately, Riot does not seem to be a big fan of silence. I can understand why, but the end result is that there is not currently any mechanic to counter mobility skills that doesn't disproportionately impact immobile champions. Riot did give Soraka an AoE silence, but in doing so took away her point and click silence. In general, Riot reworked her kit to be more skill shot reliant, just as they did with Veigar. It's understandable why they are doing this, but skill shots are just another mechanic that is much more powerful against immobile champions than against mobile champions.

I would love to see a champion that had an ability to disable mobility skills for x seconds in an area. Alternatively, this could be an active on an item, although I really doubt Riot would go for that.

terkmc3 votes

In a world of perfect balance, cc would counter mobile champion since they would have to give up something in their power budget to gain mobility, most likely loosing their survivalbilty. So in a perfect balance, cc counter mobile champ because immobile champ can take the cc and not explode, for example, a Leblanc is hyper mobile mage, but if you stun her once she explode. Swain is immobile mage, but he can take a stun or three if and still do his job

SmokingPuffin9 votes

The basic problem with immobile melee champions is that anything you do to help them as a class tends to help mobile melee champions even more.

I don't think there is going to be a way to make immobile melee champs able to effectively dive mobile carries. We're going to need some new idea of what immobile melee should be good at. Possible role models include:

Trundle be really good at neutralizing enemy tanks Rumble use ranged skillshots to set up melee trades Nasus split push all day DrMundo be more about absorbing damage than dealing damage

Raptamei4 votes

Okay, so melee dps isn't viable anymore. And? Just pick Ryze if he's so good? It's a competitive game, why do you refuse to pick the champions you know to be the best?

HateDaddy84 votes

{quoted}

Okay, so melee dps isn't viable anymore. And? Just pick Ryze if he's so good? It's a competitive game, why do you refuse to pick the champions you know to be the best?

Oh right I just won't play the champions I enjoy playing because I should always emulate what the pros are doing. My apologies.

Raptamei3 votes

{quoted}

Oh right I just won't play the champions I enjoy playing because I should always emulate what the pros are doing. My apologies.

Yeah, this is not a strategy game, champion select is for picking the champions you like the most, not the ones that fit best into the team. Of course.

HateDaddy22 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, this is not a strategy game, champion select is for picking the champions you like the most, not the ones that fit best into the team. Of course.

Considering nobody does this outside of professional play and masters/challenger elo, yeah

Qwandee12 votes

I mean he's obviously one of those guys that just abuses something so broken it gets hot fixed in 2 days everytime it comes out and spams normals until something else completely absolutely broken comes out and hops back into ranked for 2 days until it's fixed again. why even feed him?

Rinky Dinky2 votes

You got that right. Rap usually has zero idea what he is talking about.

BlackRaven40 votes

{quoted}

Okay, so melee dps isn't viable anymore. And? Just pick Ryze if he's so good? It's a competitive game, why do you refuse to pick the champions you know to be the best?

are you one of the tools playing nidalee right now? if so, then that makes sense from what you just posted. tool...

HeadHonchkrow18 votes

Says a player with the summoner name "Maximum Lee Sin" In all seriousness though, I agree with you and the OP

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