for the love of god,nerf Lethality all u want but fix TALON's bugs and spells lack of coordination!!

Wukong Airlines··70 votes·3,960 views

Hi everyone, I'm shaykh ,a Talon main with over 1mil points in total. I find it frustrating that many people claim Talon is broken and overpowered without knowing how his kit works , the and without even trying the champ and assessing his skillcap prior judging him.

Talon was announced weak by Rioters couple of weeks ago, therefore they generally buffed Lethality as an excuse for buffing him. The problem is it didn't only put Talon in a good spot, but it put many other commonly picked overloaded champs in an even better spot than they already were.LeeSin Jayce Jhin MissFortune few examples.

and I'm glad to see those upcoming Lethality nerfs next patch and I never considered Lethality and assassin items to be weak to begin with that they needed buffs. You find Talon weak, you buff Talon, simple.

Talon in general does not need any damage buffs, maybe his Q but the rest of his kit is fine. What bothers me is the lack of coordination when using his spells.

  1. I don't understand why I cant Q mid-air after wall jumping E, but I can still use my R? afterall, you said it yourself [[ Talon looks like the type of dude who would hang out on top of a building all day waiting to jump down and kill you ]]. So explain why when I use my E ability the rest of the kit becomes unusable but not the R?

  2. Talon's E sometimes bugs and flips in backward direction. sometimes It happens to me and results in me dying to the enemy cause of a bug I cant control.

  3. Using E does not put Talon in the other side of the wall until he lands there, aund results in easy counterplays by forexample:= Vayne's E , after jumping the walla she uses her E on me and while almost landing i find myself stunned where I started. (Hecarim does the same thing too).

  4. Why can't I use my E to the fullest and land wherever I want? I understand jumping a big wall results in me landing exactly infrontof the wall, but why can't i long jump small walls too and land wherever I want? I believe this would give much more cool outplay potential rather than just land on that goddamn trap that cait setup near the wall. afterall he JUMPS, LEAPS and he should be freely able to land anyplace within the RANGE of the SPELL.

  5. You never mentioned Talon's Passive got a Cooldown. I tested Talon and seems like you can't stack anymore Wounds on the enemy if he's bleeding. What the heck? why can't i do that? Why can't I be rewarded for perfectly timing my spells ?

Edit: Due to being in a hurry yesterday I skipped the most important disturbing part about Talon

  1. Talon lacks proper movement speed and Q dash range to catch/stick to his enemies. Why did you even nerf Talon's MS to being with? yeah you gave him a jump but whats the point of it if you can't reach the wall in time to escape? many times I find it hard to approach those champs like mages and ADCs and some bruisers who buy items that permanently buff their MS item 3087 item 3046 item 3085 item 3504 item 3285 item 3100 item 3078 item 3742 in and out of combat. meanwhile you gave AD assassins , the supposedly most mobile champs in the game whom you've reworked to give other champs a window for counterplay ONLY an OUT of combat MS. Not fair at all !! the only item that should provide an out of combat MS isitem 3117 and at least it gives a huge amount of it compared to lethality items.

Nerf Lethality items by 5 AD and 5 Lethality but let that MS be in and out of combat as a compensation.

Tldr; Give Talon the QoL buffs that he deserves and stop changing Lethality and items around him.

36 Comments

rtbf761092719 votes
  1. Talon's E sometimes bugs and flips in backward direction. sometimes It happens to me and results in me dying to the enemy cause of a bug I cant control.

It's hard to convince people this bug even exists for some reason. It happens to me at least once a day. You are in melee range of the wall, press e with your cursor on the other side of the wall, you jump up in the air then glitch out and fall on the same side of the wall you started. And no, it's not a wall with a thickness greater than the max e jump distance. Its easiest to reproduce on turrets and inhibitors, but can happen on any normally valid wall to jump over.

People try to chalk it up to user error but it's REALLY a bug issue.

Wukong Airlines1 votes

I'm sure it happens mostly on any circular terrain like towers/inhibitors/ chicken camp wall.

LA Losty1 votes

I have only seen it happen once, but could it have something to do with E'ing whilst being right at the middle of the wall? So either you are too far away from the sides to jump over there, or it somehow cant decide what way to go?

Xevestos1 votes

Yeah terrain with curves causes the bug to appear more often but normal walls also trigger the bug sometimes.

Khadaver1 votes

I was watching a youtube video and saw it happen.

Ibn La Ahad4 votes

if only a Rioter could read this post.

Wukong Airlines26 votes

They will see, they will ignore.

SirΤeemο2 votes

it's funny how talon had 0.59% pick rate, and after lethality everyone remembered him .. lul meta slaves

rtbf7610927118 votes

yes.. this guy got 1 million mastery points on talon since patch 7.2..

LA Losty7 votes

Now thats dedication!

Velzard of Koz2 votes

When you main FotM, these things come naturally. You get a small loan of 1 million mastery points.

TeCoolMage2 votes

E shouldn't end R on cast also

and W should be castable mid E or Q

Melledoneus2 votes

I have one question for you.

...Are you a shake?

######Inside joke, please don't kill me if you don't get it.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

prepares Zed blades

Melledoneus1 votes

Shen Teleports next to Zed and slaps him in the face, then teleports away

Ionian Vulpix2 votes

Build a Ghostblade. There, you issues with movespeed are done.

Lord Malpercio1 votes

In regards to #2, this is not a bug, but the fact that the wall you are attempting to go over is likely larger than 800 units, so you end up seeking out a shorter route upon trying. This typically defaults to you landing slightly to the left or right.

Wukong Airlines3 votes

I'm not talking about a straight jump where you jump to your left or your right, I'm talking about a somewhat wall backflip jump. something like that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnJjxtVKQxg

Lord Malpercio1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shaykh al Jabal,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p5x3isj4,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-02-16T20:02:40.295+0000)

I'm not talking about a straight jump where you jump to your left or your right, I'm talking about a somewhat wall backflip jump. something like that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnJjxtVKQxg

It's probably the exact same thing still. I honestly think it would be better if Talon didn't attempt a jump at all if the route was too large to jump.

Wukong Airlines2 votes

The funny thing is it's a small wall, no more than 400 units.

rtbf761092714 votes

i can 100% guarantee you there is a bug. It has happened to me on the narrowest walls possible, like turrets, inhibitors or baron/dragon pit.

You jump and just land right where you started and presumably die. It's quite hard to reproduce in a consistent way, but happens to me regularly too. Maybe once per day or two

Steel Blossom1 votes

I find it hilarious that people are saying Talon is strong now. No, no he is not. His kit is utter shit. It just happens to mesh well with lethality, a stat created with him in mind. In this patch, right now, the overall strength of a champion's kit doesn't matter as much as that kit's synergy with lethality.

Now, let's count down the things Talon's lost, just in this rework, excluding his silence and ult CD.

  1. His blink. He can't use it to outplay his opponents anymore, and I say outplay because I've used this spell to dodge things ranging from Riven's third Q to Gragas's Body Slam. At point fucking blank. I've also dodged Ashe and Cassiopeia ults, but those feel like impressive. Anyways, the point is, Talon lost the only bit of outplay potential in his kit with the rework. And not just that, this makes him utter shit at entering a fight. This blink could be buffered with flash to cover 1k+ units in the time of ONE FRAME, and he got a fucking 550 range dash as a replacement? Sorry, but no amount of melee crit can compensate the pressure a Talon with flash had for the enemy team.
  2. His AoE. Legit, when Riot said that Talon goes in for Twitch and accidentally gets a quadrakill, it made me sad as fuck. I almost always valued having the creativity to set up a good round of AoE over the ability of nuking down one single target. My quadrakills were all fucking intentional. That's like some guy contributing all your achievements to luck, that really hurts, man.
  3. His reliable slow. Not much to say here, except that his W is about as worthless as a spell can get. It's legit all intimidation and no actual use. At least his old W dealt damage, and slowed whenever you wanted it to. I don't think it's hard to understand that something with 40 decades worth of delay isn't that good defensively, right.
  4. His poke. His W is about 1/3 of his old W's damage. Again, nobody's going to get hit by the return, and the initial damage sucks fucking ass, so he's gonna have to jump if he wants to even set up for a kill. Depressing as fuck when you consider that when Talon jumps in, he doesn't get a free out like Fizz .
  5. The ability to run out/reposition with his ult. This one's easy too, just look at all his viable combos, it literally just WR and then get to the target with the Q and auto reset to proc passive. Or the one I was posting about recently, where you R mid-Q, but it's still the same shit. You pull your ult back onto the person you're killing. But you can't just E, auto Q, R, and then run to get to a good place to both pull back your ult and W. Or just to deal most of his damage and then get the hell out of there. Well, yeah he's got his E, but really, if you get hit by any slow ever, you're not going over any wall before you die.
  6. His 350 base movespeed. Yup. He used to have 350. About the highest in the game. Now it's 335, about the lowest a melee champion can get. With a E(that has a long-ass animation AND scales with movespeed), the removal of %movespeed from Duskblade, and a short ass fuck dash, this 15 movespeed hurts a LOT more than you'd think. I'm actually running 3 movespeed quints to counteract this. But it's still fucking cancer to deal with.

tl;dr: His strong early game and decent roam doesn't make up for the fact that he's half as useless once he gets to where he actually wants to go.

TheDelighted1 votes

All of the problems you listed are problems because of spaghetti code.

  1. My theory is that his Q is considered a displacement as a mobility spell. Thus Qing while mid-air will cause the same stuff that happens on 3. Another theory is that, since his E is kind of a channel casting Q would cause talon to go on his target and then when E is finished channeling he goes back to his Final E position. 2)Again spaghetti code. It probably finds the most suitable direction just like walk commands. If pressed continuously there would be a chance that the navigation system is confused and puts you "somewhere" instead of where you want to go. 3)The same goes with any wall jumping, wall-punching mechanism in the game. Again. Spaghetti code. A probable fix would be to include a CC immunity buff, but then it would be too convenient. 4)This works like flash and all displacement effects. If your jump isn't long enough to fully bypass the wall then it wont. A probable fix would be to increase his E range. 5)Talon's passive is a debuff. Like all debuffs they can't be stacked with themselves but only refresh the duration.

These are my theories, I could be 100% wrong or somewhat right. But, yeah... Whatever...

LA Losty1 votes

I actually saw the 2nd thing you mentioned in a game the other day. He just backflipped off of a wall and got clapped like an insect, it was hilarious, but clearly bs.

See You At Baron1 votes

bump. I would like to see some QoL changes to his kit as well, or if its related to spaghetti code it needs to be fixed

SiG DxD1 votes
  1. Talon's E sometimes bugs and flips in backward direction.

fucked my gameplay so hard ,tried to escape and the fker stunned himself there and died.

also the ms 335 ,like a sluggish mage .from 350

Risen291 votes

Lethality is fine. At level 9 it's exactly the same as the old three flat armorpen items. Prior to level 9 it's worse. At level 18 you only gain 10 extra armor pen over the old items, which isn't a big deal because all it's really doing is helping you scale with the scaling base armor of squishies (most of whom can have 80ish base armor by level 18).

Most of the whining about lethality seems to center around edge's spellshield. I wouldn't mind if that got looked at, but lethality itself shouldn't be changed because it's functioning as intended - It's worse than damage runes/items in the early game, it blows up targets that didn't get any defensive items in mid-late game, but it's very ineffective against people who have multiple defensive items and completely useless against tanks.

As for the other things: I have had the same problem with his E landing me on the same side of the wall, or not jumping at all when it should. I've also had instances where I can't jump over anivia's wall when I should be able to.

More base movespeed would be nice.

Removing the cooldown on his wound would make sense. I never realized it was there. It would reward people who set up perfectly timed double wounds, because they are not easy to pull off. You need to wait for your Q to cooldown before you can even do it, so there's no danger of this being burst that is too fast in coming.

Luxs Destiny1 votes

Many of these changes you propose are outlandish and don't fit into coding, don't fit into the game itself, "simple." Just because you're a Talon main doesn't mean you know what is best for him, or know what may be going on it development.

Wukong Airlines1 votes

So I can E and flash, E and R, but it would be hard for them to allow me to E and Q is that what you're saying?

Luxs Destiny1 votes

I wasn't saying anything specific, just that the changes you propose are outlandish. If you'd like me to comment on what you just brought up, I will; E flash works due to Talon's data being stationary during the animation of E, and flash requiring no target, therefore position may be changed at any time you are not CC'd. E R works for the same reason - it does not require a target, therefore you are able to cast it any time you are able to normally move or cast E on a wall that is not on cooldown. E Q does NOT work due to Q needing to be in range for it to target and attack something. Talon's data is not on the other side of the wall until he completes the E animation.. even him coming over the wall out of vision tells you NOTHING until he hits the ground and shows up on your side of the wall. And you can't cancel the E animation.. So you're unable to "channel" another cast while performing it. "simple" coding.

JohnnyNeverSins1 votes

If i pick someone on mid,its gonna be talon,jesus he is buggy as hell

Rito Staff1 votes

His Q might need buff? xP I'll respect what you said tho cuz you're the main with 1mill point :pp

But I thought his Q was the strongest of all given the crit. It's so strong o_o

SlntReaper1 votes

You don't build crit on Talon?

SlntReaper1 votes

You don't build crit on Talon?

iPooUnicorns1 votes

His Q definitely needs to put him behind the enemy champion. Back before his rework, his E put him directly behind the enemy, allowing his ult to damage said enemy. He no longer has the ability to do this aside from just running directly behind the enemy.

SH Azykan1 votes

if you q a target with his ult active the blades converge on the target you q'd, so they still damage them

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