Attaching negative attributes to items

Woook3r·Apr 19, 2016·1 votes·1,244 views

Would this make the game balanced? If an ekko stacking armor caused him to loose dmg or mobility? Some items should maybe cause the "grounded" effect. That way ekko would actually pay a price for his mobility, in that he cant build armor if he wants to keep it.

To clairify, this change would make sunfire ekko immobile, for an example. If he builds sunfire, then his e no longer gives a dash or a blink. Just bonus dmg. His ult would just fizzle or something. Maybe would proc dmg at location of shadow, but not move him to that location.

34 Comments

ZmuecatApr 19, 20167 votes

With items you have to take a look at how they will effect other champions. Is this a good change for Ekko? Maybe.

Is this a good change for Malphite, Sejuani, Nautilus, Rammus, etc.? No.

Unless you add the modifier to Ekko in his passive, you put a bad change in champions that don't deserve it.

Also, if an item gives a negative effect, you'd have to make the rest of the item much stronger, otherwise no one would buy it because it would be horrible.

So no, this is a bad idea. If grounded effects his ult you have removed at least half his kit for buying an item, and other champions would take similar hits.

Woook3rApr 19, 20161 votes

Rammus gets speed. thats not a dash.
Make those champions immune to cc during their mobility. Grounded is a cc. Therefore they wouldnt be affected.

Yea I thought about this already. U can make tanks immune to cc during certain abilities. That makes thematic sense. However, I do have an issue with tanks having mobility on low cooldowns. I think sej dash is fucking stupid and broken, as is grag dash. In general, I think this game needs a 100% overhaul. They cant go piece by piece. Thats what got the game to this point in the first place.

I just think that Armor means you dont get to do agile athletic things without exhausting yourself. Yet somehow gragas can leap over the cliffs surrounding the dragon pit like a crack bunny..

ZmuecatApr 19, 20167 votes

Giving tanks CC imunity to offset the way an item works is worse, because the way it works means that they cannot be silenced or CCd, because each dash, at least, would have a quicksilver effect. This is just not good.

Also, running around with 5 swords, bows, and/or staves would not be much easier. Adding reality in a game where a mountain, talking armadillo, troll, dog people, SHURIMA, tentacle summoning objects, armor that lights you on fire... Oh, and magic, is not the best way to make a point.

2 Weezy BabyApr 19, 20167 votes

This has got to be the dumbest idea ever posted on boards.

Woook3rApr 19, 20161 votes

The "idea" is to attach a penalty to items. The grounded idea is just a placeholder for the right idea. I did say that he could loose out of dmg as well, didnt I?
Its not as dumb as giving graves 2 dashes, 100 free armor and mr, and an ass ton of dmg. Is it?
If you do this, then you get to lower the cooldown on grags dash. If you only put grounded on a few of the really good defensive items, then he will be squishier if he wants to keep that dash, but not super duper squishy. The low cooldown on the dash is justified by this. He can go in with dash. Do shit for 3 seconds and then go out with the dash before he dies. If he wants to go in and staay in, then hes got to sacrifice that sweet sweet mobility bby.

ChaddyFantomeApr 19, 20163 votes

While i am not against the idea (we technically already have this in the form of items such as item 3147 and item 3742 ) I don't think something that drastic is very sensible or even necessary.

Woook3rApr 19, 20161 votes

U think that balancing this game is going have an answer that is SIMPLE?

Are u sure u understand what I am saying? I am saying that certain tank items would give the WEARER the grounded status effect. Im not saying that the item applies it to a target.

So if you build sunfire on ekko, then he doesnt get a dash or a blink from his e. He gets the bonus dmg and thats it. No mobility.

ChaddyFantomeApr 19, 20163 votes

{quoted}

U think that balancing this game is going have an answer that is SIMPLE?

Are u sure u understand what I am saying? I am saying that certain tank items would give the WEARER the grounded status effect. Im not saying that the item applies it to a target.

So if you build sunfire on ekko, then he doesnt get a dash or a blink from his e. He gets the bonus dmg and thats it. No mobility.

I understood exactly what you said. I have this thing called reading comprehension. I dunno what made you think I thought otherwise. Turn your idiot switch off.

To do that would limit the viability of the item on champions that are healthy with them just because one champion is designed poorly, which is retarded.

The problem is Ekko, not the items.

Woook3rApr 19, 20161 votes

explain how item 3147 or item 3742 is like this item. This item would apply a debuff to the champion who owns the item. Those items apply a debuf to the person attacked by the person who owns the item.

ChaddyFantomeApr 19, 20163 votes

{quoted}

explain how or is like this item. This item would apply a debuff to the champion who owns the item. Those items apply a debuf to the person attacked by the person who owns the item.

While DuskBlade's passive is up, the champion can't use a basic attack on an enemy champion without wasting it. It has a hefty CD as well.

Deadmans expends its stacks and therefore its bonus move speed when using a basic attack or on-hit ability of any kind on any enemy unit, including minions.

This means hitting someone or something will make you lose your movespeed.

Woook3rApr 19, 20161 votes

thats really weak man. loosing a benefit is not the same thing as a penalty. if you had called me stupid or insulted me id be really angry.. but i think it was other ppl that did that so im not.

i think that when you come down to it, there needs to be some tradeoffs associated with powerful items and powerful abilities. The reason iceborn and sunfire are so strong right now is that they need the strengths they provide, but they dont have any price associated with that strength. The "price" is due to the kits that certain champions have and that means those champions need these items. Champions like ekko dont pay that price because they have a different kit. If you buy these items, the item should do something to make sure your kit more closely matches the kit that item is designed for.

ChaddyFantomeApr 19, 20162 votes

thats really weak man.

I guess you missed the part where I said your idea is needlessly drastic? Maybe you should take your own concerns about reading comprehension and apply them to yourself.

SurroundedApr 19, 20162 votes

Maybe you should learn how to spell before you try to needlessly insult someone's ideas.

ChaddyFantomeApr 19, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Maybe you should learn how to spell before you try to needlessly insult someone's ideas.

When did i insult his idea? Le Reading comprehension tho.

Woook3rApr 19, 20161 votes

yep. im convinced. this is the only way. grounded should be the first status effect attached to an item. shouldnt be in cas's kit. needs to be in tank items.

SlythionApr 19, 20167 votes

...no. A permanent grounding effect is ridiculous, I don't see how you could even consider this.

No flash all game? Multiple dash/movement abilities on tanks being voided? This would ruin the game Think of: Aatrox Alistar Amumu Bard Braum Galio Gnar Gragas Hecarim Illaoi Irelia JarvanIV Jax LeeSin Leona Malphite Maokai Nautilus Pantheon Poppy RekSai Sejuani Shen Thresh MonkeyKing XinZhao and even more champions that would be forced out of building tanky...

Woook3rApr 19, 20161 votes

Several of those champions have viable dmg builds. So they rnt ruined.
You dont need to put "grounded" on every tank item.
Why the fuck are tanks so mobile in this game?? Armor is HEAVY! 4) They still have engage potential. They just cant leap over walls, which makes no sense for a tank.

SlythionApr 19, 20167 votes

You need to understand the champions that use tank items but aren't tanks. Fighters are the main champion class that would be hurt by this. Tank items aren't built by solely tanks, as fighters, juggernauts, and bruisers require tanky items as well. Not every tank is an immobile damage sponge, but a single-nuke aoe cc monster. Tanks are designed for simply peel, but engages as well, and how do you engage if you can't move?

Woook3rApr 19, 20161 votes

It does not make thematic sense that a fat, unkillable, raging, alcoholic, loaded down with armor can leap thru walls and destroy your health bar without assistance. It also doesnt make thematic sense that the skinny nerd with the weird time gizmos is doing the same thing as the fatass with armor.

If you want to give a fighter resistances, then fine give them resistances. Dont give them the BEST resistances unless they want to pay the price of being loaded down with gear.

You can make a pair of items that work together to ground a target. One removes dashes thru walls. The other can remove dashes thru space...so effects still trigger, but on location of cast..The one that completely removes dashes is more gold and slot efficient than the other.

Do you see the balance? You trade mobility for survivability. Anyone that buys the first item can be tanky, and mobile but not completely mobile. Anyone that buys both is going to be super tanky, and super immobile..tradeoffs = balance

Instead we have an item like iceborn, which gives you cc, cooldown reduction, survivability, and dmg for 2700 gold. Its one of the cheapest full items in the GAME. Wheres the fucking trade off to that? Ppl say marksman kit is broken. Well clearly its the "tanks" that are broken because they require every bandaid in the game with 0 tradeoffs incurred.

Gragas has mobility, dmg, cc, waveclear, burst, more cc, mobility, sustain, the most gold and slot efficient items in the game and the largest early game powerspikes, and some of the highest base hp and some of the highest hp per level and some of the highest armor per level. It goes on my friend. The range on his q? 850. Its larger than any adc's auto attack range so yea hes got range too. The only thing that holds him back is that he cant keep doing it over and over and over because that would be urf mode. All im asking is that if you want to be tanky, pay a price. If you want to be mobile, pay a price. You want dmg? Pay a price.

And ppl say adc is broken. Of all the champions in the meta, the adc's are the only ones paying a real price for the shit they build..

SlythionApr 19, 20163 votes

I agree that tanks need to be scaled down in damage a bit, but mobility is not the way. Almost all tanks are kited easily already, the problem is that non-tank champions are able to build tank while still doing damage. Grounding is not the answer

Also, don't make ig balancing decisions based off "thematically sense", theme doesn't apply otherwise why do adc's build a bunch of swords? lel

Woook3rApr 19, 20161 votes

You make design decisions from thematics. Does it make sense to have a giant man in scaly black and red armor be as squishy as a butterfly granting healing buffs and auras to allies? No. You make him hurt things.

The point of this entire thread is that items should incur a net benifit by buffing stats and abilities while also balancing the game by providing associated penalties that make sense.

There SHOULD be one armor item to rule them all and it should be one with the grounded debuff. It makes sense in any game where you need someone to wade in and not die. You just wouldnt build it on any of the other champions, UNLESS YOU REALLY NEEDED IT.

The other items that you can build on mobile champions should not be "as good" at soaking dmg. In fact, you could do this for offensive items AS WELL.

Give ie to the immobile adc's and give essence reaver to the mobile ones. BUT DO NOT GIVE BOTH TO THE MOBILE ONES. THAT IS OVERPOWERED. THAT IS WHY MOBILE IS MOBETTA-METTA.

SlythionApr 19, 20162 votes

Oh boy you just want to ruin diversity don't you. I can't go into how Mobas work overall, not so late at night anyways, but try playing more and reviewing how these changes would affect the game

Woook3rApr 19, 20161 votes

It wont ruin diversity. It will give you a solid reason to pick immobile champions, whereas we currently have a situation in which 15/20 of the most pick/banned champions are mobile and 15/20 of the least pick/banned champions are immobile.

The more champions in a match that have mobility, the less each mobility spell can actually mean. When every champion in the match has mobility, then the game becomes about who has the lowest cooldown mobility. Thats what mobility creep is.

If you change things so that 10/20 of the pick bans are mobile and 10/20 are immobile, then that actually comes from increased diversity, which is the goal. You can only do that by making immobiles more powerful. But its not good to give their kits more power, because that is free power. Its better to put it in an item that the player has to earn. But if immobile and mobile alike build the item, then you dont achieve the balance. U have to lock out, the same way you lock-out with devourer and hydra and deadmans.

How are YOU going to incentivize the game to include more immobile champions?

BeatzBoyFTWApr 19, 20162 votes

yep. im convinced. this is the only way.

13 downvotes says otherwise, and you literally high-five'ed yourself.

Ekko's already getting his "nerf base damage & buff AP ratio" changes in PBE right now, and your idea is really really off.

Woook3rApr 19, 20161 votes

thats just going to help him oneshot ppl. Its balancing his tank build at the cost of breaking the ap build. its not a good strategy. It would be better to just do something about mobility creep in general.

BeatzBoyFTWApr 19, 20162 votes

Ekko was intended to be a bursty assassin with squishy HP/AP builds and killing unawared squishies is his main job, especially when it comes to fighting against Assassins like Zed & LeBlanc. What's unhealthy about him currently is that he can still burst people down while having tons of HP & Armor/MR, which is not the intended way to play Ekko.

Woook3rApr 19, 20161 votes

Im getting down voted, but this is the only thing that makes sense. Otherwise, ekko is just going to get gutted or broken in the long run. There has to be a price for mobility.

MasterSomethingApr 19, 20166 votes

This only makes sense for you, smart one. This is idiotic to the rest of us.

Also, tank Ekko is getting nerfed next patch. Chill.

Woook3rApr 19, 20161 votes

sure man. lets not ever make anyone pay any price for mobility or tankyness. Lets not ever try and make a tradeoff happen. Lets just all start building iceborn sunfire and go to town on each other. Teamfights will last 5 minutes. It'll be great.

Woook3rApr 19, 20161 votes

its not about ekko. Its about the fact that 75% of the most pick banned champions are mobile and 75% of the least pick banned champions are immobile. Nothing in this game attempts to balance mobility. Im the only one talking about it.

MasterSomethingApr 19, 20162 votes

No, you are not. You are just one of many complaining about it and offering terrible solutions to non-existent problems.

Meep ManApr 19, 20161 votes

The point of items is to boost your champion. Adding penalties extremely limits creativity and fun while also limiting design space. Limitations on items are fine if it would break entire classes of champions (like Melee vs. Ranged) but penalties? No.

Woook3rApr 19, 20161 votes

Actually, I think you are wrong about this. A lot of creativity in design and strategy is how you mitigate negatives and maximize positives. When all you have is positives, then its just about maximizing positives. So add negatives. Then you have more concerns and more variability. You need more creativity to manage those concerns effectively.