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Why do Vanguards keep getting the short end of the design stick?

Moody P··27 votes·12,250 views

Wardens get to have:

  • Anti-mobility field Poppy
  • Anti-AA field and global saves Shen
  • Damage block/redirect AOE Braum
  • mobile zhonya TahmKench
  • milk Alistar

Vanguards, by comparison, are just CC bots with different flavors of CCing you. The "new" and "better" ones are so bland and interchangeable it hurts. Sejuani Zac Maokai Sion Nautilus Ornn Leona do one thing - CC chain you. That's their only real defining feature and their only difference is what kind of CC they apply and whether it's AOE or not. But the end goal is the same - stunlock you, and do it as many times as they're allowed to do until they die.

Ironically the older tanks stand out much more than the new ones. Malphite AA crippler, Amumu magic enhancement (fairly recent change but it was a really good one). You could have made Ornn much more interesting if Brittle was more than a tack-on and if he didn't just bring all the CC you need by himself; he can't even enjoy the main benefit of Brittle's extended CC; it's basically just extra damage for his kit the way it's applied. Leona almost stands out with her passive but it's not really a prominent feature beyond just permanently reapplying it to one person at a time until they die or she dies.

The pre-rework tanks stood out so much more, too. Sejuani was maybe the only hard-scaling tank who was more of like a teamfight-focused bruiser than a real, dedicated tank, since she had a poor defensive steroid but a very good offensive tool. Maokai had R to absorb damage (the concept was fine but the application was bad). Zac.. I don't know; he's always been about the long range engage, but he's just not fun now. He feels so one-note with landing E->R and everything else about him has had to be nerfed because of this combo. Nunu was the king of objectives and turned into a carry-buffer in teamfights (something I'm now pining for as I watch them all get reworked); as far as tank reworks go, he's easily the best, but I'm still not really satisfied with it now that it's settled in.

The worst part is that this doesn't make them healthier. All of these reworks put so much power out of the champ's unique and defining features and put them into strengths that soloQ simply can't coordinate to use to the fullest. One by one these rework tanks disappear from normal play and then keep getting trashed because, surprisingly, their 3-5 second stunlock combos are utterly disgusting in coordinated play. They're more snowball-focused than ever because they have no redeeming quality if they can't survive long enough to spam CC on your face, but they're utterly unbearable if they have the leg up.

Where's the variety? Where's the creativity? Just because a champion is built to start a fight doesn't mean they all need to do it the same way. You have plenty of mechanics that provide disruptions and engage potential without outright needing to remove the ability for the enemy team to play. Nearsight, under-used CCs like silences, terrain.. just anything. I want to look at a new Vanguard tank and not be immediately disappointed that 80% of their kit is hard disables.

57 Comments

Eedat19 votes

I mean really this is just a case of wording things to make them line up with your point. I could easily just say

Zac AoE displacement field

Sion Unstoppable engage tool

Ornn Inrceased CC debuff

Gnar Shapeshifting squirrel

Maokai Massive AoE CC zoning tool

etc

which is what you did for the wardens but I'm guessing you'll just tell me its different somehow when its really not. There are plenty of unique, high-impact abilities for vanguards as well

Moody P9 votes

which is what you did for the wardens but you'll just tell me its different somehow when its really not

but you won't tell me how it's the same because the wardens are actually doing something different l0le, because all your examples are just CC. epic

Gnar aoe displacement just like Zac, kinda long range engage if you do the double E during transform Malphite Vi Hecarim Kled unstoppable engage Chogath Trundle Sion Ornn Sejuani AOE CC zoning tools

don't act like brittle is ever used to extend CC lol.

If you wanted to have an argument you could at least point out that Maokai's got vision and bush control with saplings. That's something that he does that's unique to him. It's not really a big part of his kit because they trashed the spell, but, y'know.

The difference is that the wardens make them mostly niche-focused and solid counterpicks. The vanguards do not do this; because CC is never bad, and their abundance of it makes the choice of Vanguard boil to "who's the best?"

Eedat11 votes

You see? Tis is exactly what I'm talking about. You are actually going to compare a Trundle pillar to an Ornn or Maokai ut to suite your purpose. Ok lets give that a go

  • Anti-mobility field Poppy

Cassiopeia Singed

Damage block/redirect AOE Braum

Yasuo

mobile zhonya TahmKench

Kayle Bard Kindred

See how easy this is? Sure, does Cass' W function the same as Poppy's? Nope. But thats exactly the entire point.

Moody P4 votes

"your one example is a stretch that makes your whole argument bad" trundle pillar can win and lose games off of its zoning and the occasional wall-pin, it's IMO a valid enough comparison

prevention =/= negation, singed and cass only keep you from using mobility if you haven't already and can't stop people mid-dash where poppy can.

tahm W functions on a completely different level than any of those spells, bard R doesn't really get used for peel and the other 2 can't save you from being stunlocked or displaced.

you still haven't told me how you're right, because your argument still boils down to that they all just CC you differently. lol

Eedat7 votes

This is exactly my point. You comparing Trundle pillar to Maokai ult is a completely valid comparison because it suites your argument. Comparing Tahm W to Bard ult is not even close to a valid comparison because it doesnt. Didnt even address the other ones. Cass W compared to Poppy W is a far more valid comparison than Maokai ult to Trundle pillar. Same with Yasuo windwall and Braum shield. Same with Kayle Ult and Tahm W. But you're just going to argue how all your comparisons are 100% valid while any of mine of complete bullshit because you dont actually want a real discussion. You just want to be right and me to be wrong. Really the only unique ability you mentioned that has no real comparison is Shen's anti-AA field. Even Shen's ult has a lot of similarities to say a Galio ult

Moody P3 votes

buddy I play bard, I can tell you with 100% certainty they're not the same. you can preemptively try and dispel any notion of disagreement all you want. Bard R can't react to instant and immediate threats even in melee; tahm's W excels at doing just that and it's why he remains a constant top tier pick in pro where Bard is almost irrelevant.

Poppy's W is the same thing in these comparisons. Cass and Singed's ground fields are worthless if you're already dashing on them and bashing their heads in; Poppy can stop you dead in your tracks. The function, and thus the value, of the spells, is entirely different.

I didn't address Yasuo because it's a valid comparison. They more or less use it for the same goal but the ultimate focus of their kits are geared towards completely different strengths. Vanguards aren't, and have little real variance in their end goals. Wardens have the same end goal of "keep teammates" alive, but how they go about doing it lends them to much more variance and thus keeps them from stepping on each others' toes.

For instance, despite Shen and Galio ults being relatively alike, Galio is mostly a waveclear drone, where Shen is at least a modestly good duelist in the early-mid. Shen trades CC potential for global pressure and better damage output. They are, despite having some similarities, still different champions that exist for different roles; Galio is stronger against mages and Shen against auto-attackers; Galio is a teamfighting champion, Shen is a splitpusher. Every Vanguard is, I guess by necessity, a teamfighter, and their main contribution is strictly in hard crowd control. You do not see much variance in this, other than how they apply it; sure, Sejuani E has the melee ally shit, but that doesn't change what she's doing; it just makes her CC more often.

That's what I'm asking for, I want shit that isn't just raw CC stacking and hoping for the best. We've had plenty of these tanks already doing just that before they got their reworks and lost it. And you STILL haven't told me why this isn't exactly the case; they all exist solely to CC people until they're dead.

Eedat5 votes

I mean I can tell you that Maokai's R isnt even close to the same as a Trundle pillar too. Honestly if you were looking for a Maokai R comparison I would have gone with Nami R.

The rest of your post is addressing exactly what I'm talking about. These abilities are not exactly the same but have somewhat similar effects. You just go on to detail all the minor differences that makes them invalid comparisons while all of yours are just fine. Cho Q is a valid comparison to a Maokai ultimate because it suites your purposes but Yasuo windwall compared to Braum shied is not. Trundle pillar is a valid comparison to Ornn ult but Cass' grounded isnt comparible to Poppy W. Vi's ult is a valid comparison to Kled's ult but Kayle saving someone isnt a valid comparison to Tahm saing someone. Sion's ult is a valid comparison to Maokai ult but Galio's ult isnt comparible to Shen's ult. Etc etc

There's really no point in continuing this. Its pretty obvious you're just going to keep insisting "I am right. All of my comparisons are 100% valid. You are wrong. All of your comparisons are trash." because, as I said, you don't want a real discussion. You just want to insist you're right at all costs even though some of my comparisons were much better than some of yours.

Peace.

Moody P3 votes

almost like that's how an argument works, I explain my points and you explain yours; I've explained everything you've questioned in detail about why I think this way. I even said Yasuo and Braum walls are more or less the same, lol. I've admitted in other posts I'm making a few stretches. That's not at all bad for a discussion. I'm looking at the function of the ability and not just the tooltip. Poppy W and cass W get used for different functions entirely; Ornn R, Mao R are used more or less for the same thing, same with Sej R, Zac combo; they want to CC you, and that's all they want to do. That's been the entire point of my OP and you still haven't even tried to counter it, you want to look at semantics and not function. You can't roast me for pointing at minor differences when you wanted to look at the minor differences.

you don't want a real discussion

ironic because you've only repeated yourself 5 times and not actually contributed at all.

peace.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

you legit posted champions who are in other classes

jesus

Moody P5 votes

so did i though

D357R0Y3R2 votes

yea, you shouldn't have done that

malphite is the only needed example

Eedat10 votes

And he didn't? Right.

Chembaron Yamada5 votes

You are still not giving enough credit to the unique features that vanguard have.

Ornn contributes empowered items for his team. Amumu is great at supporting AP heavy teams, because he turns 10% of their damage into true damage. Rammus his ultimate deals damage to towers, I know, it's not used for that, but it is a thematic niche that they could embrace more with his rework: the siege breaking tank. Zac extreme long engage and targeted AoE displacement, additionally revive passive to buy time for the team to follow up. Maokai great zone control and I don't just mean because of the CC of his ult. He additionally has his saplings, basically working as additional wards and delaying the enemy by slowing them with damage added.

Moody P2 votes

I don't think I listed Amumu or Rammus, I think they're unique enough in their approach even if their designs are a little dated. In fact Amumu is what I'd like more tanks to be like, and I'd kind of like Amumu to shift a little harder into that strength, even if it comes at the cost of his general appeal.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

how is unstoppable unique malphite has it on R

also except Zac, all recent tanks have engage that cannot be stopped by CC Sejuani ult for instance

Ralanr2 votes

Ornn? Nunu?

Minimac20004 votes

{quoted}

how is unstoppable unique malphite has it on R

also except Zac, all recent tanks have engage that cannot be stopped by CC Sejuani ult for instance

Um, you sure sejauni has an ult after last patch? Pretty sure it's now a passive Glacial pro play prison: sejauni is played in pro play and therefore she doesn't need a 4th ability lol

saltran8 votes

milkAlistar

LOL

Tahminatrix 4 votes

But you can`t milk those ;-;

LordGeovanni6 votes

Wish Poppy Anti Mobility feild was acutally usefull and stopped all dashes in it for its duration or if it works like it does now does 120 - 540 damage because it only works once on each target is super conditional and it has a long cooldown.

Also wish that Braum E wasnt a self delete button where riot removed over 1700 hp from a full build tank and removed all the hp5 from tank items too.

Gregorovic084 votes

{quoted}

Wish Poppy Anti Mobility feild was acutally usefull and stopped all dashes in it for its duration or if it works like it does now does 120 - 540 damage because it only works once on each target is super conditional and it has a long cooldown.

Also wish that Braum E wasnt a self delete button where riot removed over 1700 hp from a full build tank and removed all the hp5 from tank items too.

What do you mean by Braum E being a self delete button?

D357R0Y3R5 votes

they legit removed the most iconic part of nunu which was his attack speed slow on E and R

riot tank reworks 2018

Moody P5 votes

Yeah, it's unfortunate. I wish Nunu had retained his buffer/debuffer aspect in his kit. The way it's currently implemented on his passive really doesn't do it for me right now, and I've got enough CC hoarders to play that I don't really need to pick up Nunu.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p2sxfe9o,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-09-22T19:09:02.887+0000)

Yeah, it's unfortunate. I wish Nunu had retained his buffer/debuffer aspect in his kit. The way it's currently implemented on his passive really doesn't do it for me right now, and I've got enough CC hoarders to play that I don't really need to pick up Nunu.

in a way i definitely agree that it would have been interesting to see Nunu and Willump retain their debuffs, but I think I can understand why they removed them (possibly) Nunu's CC and damage can be oppressive in the right hands; With how E and R currently work. R grants a shield (which helps nunu more than a Cripple and the Slow+dmg threat is in most cases, enough to get AA'ers to back off allies). E now grants a Root and with a Cripple that might be 2 much.

Also I am not sure that the Cripple were the MOST iconic parts of Nunu's kit, as we can see they maintained a lot of their identity and enhanced it w/o the Cripple (besides Nunu and Willump can still BUY items that grant a Cripple, which albeit the % is reduced...but the Range is increased and these are items that they normally buy anyways)

In terms of his Buffing ability I fail to see how they didn't basically maintain it and infact buffed its duration and CD(which is now unique to units and not on its own CD). Could u explain how the passive doesn't work 4 u?

Now I will agree that Nunu and Willump's Knock Up on their W goes too far into CC hoarder territory. I think its a bad CC for a snowball and we can all agree that there are 2 many knock ups in the game. And in the context of this post its worst that Nunu and Willump have it as a Vanguard as again, its limiting the possibilities of the class in terms of what they can provide. I think a Nearsight in combination with a Ground for a short duration would have been the way to go, as it can lead into E and/or R much better than a knock up and against breaks the Vangaurd hard-CC-chain-mold. Further more contrary to popular belief a knock up is neither the best thematic fit for a Giant Snow Ball bowling you over neither does it make the most sense. Realistically getting hit with a mound of snow would knock you down (which in game basically eqautes to a short root that interrupts dashes), but it also limits your eye sight and ability to move and doesn't always remove mobility entirely.

MorganFreemanBot5 votes

{quoted}

they legit removed the most iconic part of nunu which was his attack speed slow on E and R

riot tank reworks 2018

I mean.

Nunu's E literally removed any AA based champion from the fight, for as long as Nunu was alive. Catching him, as the enemy jungler, was pointless because you couldn't kill him unless he heavily misplayed or was in the 10-20% health range. In team fights he simply removed the enemy ADC (or attack speed based fighter) from existence forever.

The icing on the cake was it being targetted; 0 counterplay at all.

It was one of the most unhealthy abilities in the game. It won't be missed.

Alzon3 votes

Well said! I actually greatly enjoy playing bruiser Jarvan because, as a Vanguard, his CC is much different from anyone else’s... except Camille, but she’s typically much squishier and needs to build damage to be effective (and she’s an Ardan clone). Jarvan doesn’t stunlock, just restrict an immobile enemy’s movement to a small area. Also, his engage is EXTREMELY flashy and much more likely to draw follow-up from teammates than something less glaringly obvious.

I do want to see more Vanguards with unique abilities instead of just immobilizing effects. Imagine a Vanguard who had the Shurima Shuffle... oh wait Gnar. Or possibly someone with another AoE debuff like Amumu or Malphite. Or a gigantic Diana Moonfall. Or a Grounded effect.

FlameHalbrdOkido2 votes

{quoted}

Well said! I actually greatly enjoy playing bruiser Jarvan because, as a Vanguard, his CC is much different from anyone else’s... except Camille, but she’s typically much squishier and needs to build damage to be effective (and she’s an Ardan clone). Jarvan doesn’t stunlock, just restrict an immobile enemy’s movement to a small area. Also, his engage is EXTREMELY flashy and much more likely to draw follow-up from teammates than something less glaringly obvious.

I do want to see more Vanguards with unique abilities instead of just immobilizing effects. Imagine a Vanguard who had the Shurima Shuffle... oh wait Gnar. Or possibly someone with another AoE debuff like Amumu or Malphite. Or a gigantic Diana Moonfall. Or a Grounded effect.

how is Camille an Ardan clone (just cause their ults are similar doesn't make her a clone)? I do like that idea that as a Vangaurd not every one needs to stun lock and J4 sets a good example. It might be nice to see his walls also deal dmg to enemies that dash through them tho. Who else is glad they gave him a small VU? Perhaps they should give more of the existing vanguards more flashy engages that say "its safe to go in follow me!" Perhaps imagine Rammus with a Ground on his ult, even tho apparently the OP doesn't have an issue with him.

their key aspect is disrupting enemies and diverting focus to themselves, I feel like vangaurds have been designed MORE to disrupt enemies rather than forcing enemies to pay attention to them or diverting attention to themselves. Additionally disrupting enemies doesn't have to be done with CC, Debuffs work great as well.

Their other key aspect is to lock down specific threats (again, 2 much focus here) as well as remove (or peel) threats from their allies (and not so much focus here)

I feel like Riot sees this: "Vanguards lead the charge for their team and are specialize at getting action started. Their explosive team fight initiation seeks to catch enemies out of position while allowing allies to follow-up to devastating effect."

and then they think the only way this can be achieved is with Hard CC, and then they just don't try to really get creative with the CC. There are other ways to get action started and initiate fights to allow allies to follow up, just because CC seems to work so great NOW doesn't mean a combination of other effects can't work as well.

there are great effects that aren't being used like granting allies CC immunity Or an ability that deals massive damage to any affected enemy if they attack anyone but the vanguard for a short duration Or an ability that sends out a tether to all enemies if they don't deal a certain percent of dmg to the vanguard within a certain period of time they suffer the left over % of dmg they didn't deal Or An ability that shields all allies for a % of their HP as long as their own shield persists It would also be interesting to see a Vanguard just generate a lot of terrain that only effects enemies It would also be nice to see the NO AA zone from Shen pop up some more.

Illabethe3 votes

I get really sick of friggin mid-class labels. They are just terms to try to muddy the water and create some layer of insulating saran wrap around a kit style.

Vanguards: Tanks. Bruisers: Tanks. Juggernauts: Tanks.

Semantics and geekiness are the only things that separate them.

That being said:

-Your Warden list ALL have weaker kits than the Vanguards you mention (Poppy is absolutely brutalized by non-Dash champions, Shen gets destroyed by mages, Braum dies to solo/duo queue where teammates don't use his kit properly and strand him to die, Tahm generally loses anything team oriented, Alistar has diminishing returns and in countered by one item)

-I think it's hilarious that you think Sion and Ornn are about "Stun Chains."

-Four of the "Vanguards" you mentioned don't even optimally start fights. They join fights mid fight for best effectiveness (Sejuani Ornn Sion Zac )

Moody P4 votes

mid-class labels are a service to identify champion role. Vanguards initiate; wardens peel. They're both tank groups but they serve different functions. That's why the labels exist. I don't pick Zac if my team needs peel.

Juggernauts and bruisers aren't and have never been tanks. Don't confuse a big HP bar with function.

Sejuani gets fucking obliterated by defense sapping and people who can survive her initial rotation, Malphite loses to heavy AP damage, Zac is worthless vs anyone who can stuff his dash, Ornn struggles if his R gets stuffed, etc. They have weaknesses too. Wardens are, however, far better design overall since they aren't overlapping each other and can fit comfortably into their own roles.

Sion and Ornn do 1 of 2 things. They're either zoning you with their spells or CCing you with their spells. Not really a big leap from what I listed them as. Especially since Sion can hold you in place for almost 4 seconds on his own - and it's all AOE, too.

Ralanr2 votes

Sion imo is actually the biggest out of AoE zoning in vanguards and offers armor shred.

But yeah, this is generally because vanguards are designed about being engagers and teamfight starters, which after a while loses some originality because they all need at least one AoE hard CC tool. Ornn’s Imo is the most original of the tools because of how his ult works.

Moody P2 votes

I would disagree on the necessity for hard CC. There are plenty of ways to be disruptive without outright halting all possible response that exists on other champions already. Mobility denial, nearsight mechanics, softer CCs like silences -- these would all go really well on an offensively oriented tank kit. They don't need to be stunlock machines and I think insisting on the design does both the class and the playerbase a disservice on missed opportunities.

Armor shred.. I guess it's unique as far as tanks go, excluding the tank J4 meta, but IMO it's a mechanic that's already too abundant as-is.

Ralanr2 votes

None of those mechanics you mentioned work as engages though, except maybe silences but Riot seems to not want to use that often.

The reason a lot of these engage champions use hard CC is because it prevents the target from escaping so the rest of the team can follow up in tat time frame.

Moody P2 votes

Not yet. It's all based on how the kit works. Nocturne's R, while not really a tank mechanic, is a pretty handy way to start a fight or make a pick. There's not really enough of these mechanics that their potential is being used, you know what I'm saying?

I don't mind that they have a CC, but I'm far more favorable to the old way of it being on their ult, or just 1-2 spells, with the rest of their kit providing something else, than the way it works now where it's like, you got 3-4 spells dedicated to adding CC, and then 1 of them's a shield or damage reduction. The old champs have issues, but I wouldn't say they're related to the concept of what I enjoy, rather than just that they're old champions made in a different period of League.

Ralanr2 votes

I know what your saying, but the problem with abilities like Nocturne R is that it fits a diver kit (I know he isn’t a diver) better because it’s engaging for himself. He doesn’t cause disruption to the whole team if they are bunched together, hell thats the counter.

Vanguard disruption needs to disrupt the enemy team most effectively when they are grouped up. That’s why they are teamfight starters.

Could we see this as an AoE silence? Yeah. More creative use of other forms of engage would be neat. But the reason why vanguard engages are very similar is because it is what works the best.

Moody P1 votes

If you want some examples, I guess, you could look at DOTA and how they design tanks. Not necessarily the same way I suggest, but they're not just raw CC bots, like how LoL does. Abyssal Underlord is a really neat zoning tank with a Ryze ult for ally minions, Centaur Warrunner has a massive team MS buff that brings his whole squad with him for a fight (also has Rammus W on steroids for niche value), Earth Shaker is your standard CC beast but has a strong terrain generating move too. They have the same general role of wanting to be tanks and start fights, but they have so much more variance in their applications that I feel like is missing from League. Most vanguards can be summed down to "get in your face and CC you" or "CC you and get in your face" and then they repeat that until they win or lose, and it's kind of turned me off from playing tanks since about 2 seasons ago.

But Wardens have no trouble at all fitting new and creative stuff, and I think it's disappointing that Vanguards haven't gotten this yet.

Ralanr3 votes

Sadly, Sivir already does what Centaur does, as does Kled.

Now I would like to see a more terrain creation type of engage. That would be cool.

Moody P2 votes

I guess J4 falls into terrain creation engage too.

It's kind of annoying that all the unique stuff for engage is getting put on fighters... But you could make a tank do it differently than just walling you in.

Ralanr1 votes

Fighters are probably a lot easier to design so they get more creativity in some abilities.

It’s pretty annoying but that’s life I guess.

FlameHalbrdOkido2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=p2sxfe9o,comment-id=00040000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-09-22T20:44:18.084+0000)

The difference is that the wardens make them mostly niche-focused and solid counterpicks. The vanguards do not do this; because CC is never bad, and their abundance of it makes the choice of Vanguard boil to "who's the best?"

the ultimate focus of their kits are geared towards completely different strengths. Vanguards aren't, and have little real variance in their end goals. Wardens have the same end goal of "keep teammates" alive, but how they go about doing it lends them to much more variance and thus keeps them from stepping on each others' toes.

Every Vanguard is, I guess by necessity, a teamfighter, and their main contribution is strictly in hard crowd control.

yeah i think all of these are big key issues that u r hitting on the head

I like how they tried to make Sej more of a leader they just went about it the wrong way, what if instead of Stunning enemies her E slowed enmies and made them leave frost fields on the ground where they walked, which granted allies MS, expanding her territory of control and as long as she meets the conditions of being within a certain radius of the affected units or remaining above a certain percentage or as long as she keeps hitting them the debuff will remain...which brings up and interesting idea what if they gave each Vanguard a key debuff?

Sejuani reduces static movment through Grounds and Slows (cause ice) (changing E) Zac i believe he'd be fine if the other Vangaurds had less CC, I kinda like seeing him as the preeminent displacement Vangaurd Maokai takes Sap magic to the next lvl: The next AA or ability when off CD spawns a plant that reduces the dmg of nearby enemies until destroyed (don't know what should be changed, maybe R grows a huge tree that follows him slowly and reduces dmg of enemies within as long as its alive?...but his current R is kinda fun) These champion were apart of the Tank update and honestly all they did was give them more CC even if they were trying to improve their theme and gameplay for the games and their own health, and i think they did just in the wrong way. Sion feels fine? idk whats wrong except just that there are too many other vanguards with CC Nautilus since he's all about being heavy maybe his abililies Cripple? idk Leona perhaps could blind or nearsight (cause sun in ur eyes?) Ornn more terrain stuff, seriously he's supposed to be the mountain smith

honestly i think Zac and Mao would be fine if other Vangaurds had less CC (would be nice if Mao could get more Vision ability out of his Saplings tho, like they leave vision in the bush for a short duration after leaving it)

there are other ways of preventing people from escaping such as placing a debuff on a champion if they run away: suffer dmg, suffer a massive slow, making a massive curved wall behind the enemy team that leaves the front open for a nice fight

SangreDeNoche2 votes

{quoted}

Sion imo is actually the biggest out of AoE zoning in vanguards and offers armor shred.

But yeah, this is generally because vanguards are designed about being engagers and teamfight starters, which after a while loses some originality because they all need at least one AoE hard CC tool. Ornn’s Imo is the most original of the tools because of how his ult works.

idk I feel like it's relying on the same lazy logic people used with charms. People said charms MUST be unique to Ahri then Eve and Rakan got them just fine without breaking everyone's suspension of disbelief.

Arakadia2 votes

TBF every warden you listed has gotten significant nerfs or become obsolete at one point.

Moody P1 votes

yeah unlike the vanguard haha

Arakadia1 votes

My point is that warden's don't simply just get way better tools for no cost. They have been nerfed into crap tier for it.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

I honestly feel like as a Mounted warrior Sej could be offereing so much more to her team uniquely rather than being a stun bot. I always wanted to see Bristle be more apart of the action rather that a walking animation and Q. What if Bristle was always shedding and Sej used that tough fur to make warm armor padding for her troops. What if she had a passive that granted allies behind and around her within a certain range, bonus tenacity and resistances?

Heriba1 votes

rito really hates auras see sona and bulwark

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

rito really hates auras see sona and bulwark

crud in a way ur right. They hate auras that passively grant the buff effects, if the Aura requires input on the allies side then that makes the aura a lot more noticeable and active

French Courtesan1 votes

Variety and creativity in tanks is kinda impossible since you cant give them damage or toxic mechanics. They are toxic enough already.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

Heres the issue i think there is with Vanguards

they all engage and enable/encourage their team to follow up right? With some sort of benefit that makes following up easier right? I think (as we all have come to this conclusion) that there just isn't enough variance in how they do it

the design philosophy when it comes to the design of HOW they engage and set up follow up is too narrow minded

what if instead of enabling allies, they assisted or benefited, what if allies actually had to put in more effort to really make use of the Vangaurd, like Sej's E but NOT with CC, i think more stuff like that could be interesting, and even Auras could work as long as they required allies to do some kind of work

like this 1.) Upon casting Vanguard marks all allies within range granting them a small % of Lifesteal when they are below 30% health. A small % of damage dealt to enemies by all allies within range is stored as HP in a shield for Vanguard. Vanguard's shield HP drops off at a rate of X HP per sec. While their shield persists a 550 unit radius bubble AoE surrounds them. Within this AoE

a.) allies gain armor for 50% of the shields HP. or b.) ALL damage taken by allies is stored and converted into DoT dealing: a % of the stored damage = to Vanguard's missing HP %( taking into account the additional shield HP%) every sec. Stored damage is signified as a Gray section in the HP bar. Allies can stand over slain marked enemies for 1 sec to send a huge chunk of HP to the shield. After the duration Vanguard permanently gains a percent of the shield's HP.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

another idea is an auto targetting tether (non locking tho - sans Rek'sa ult) that doesn't allow the enemy to leave the range of the tether until they have dealt x% of damage to the Vangaurd

basically the idea is to call attention to the Vangaurd and disrupt the team without hard CC

allies hitting the enemy grant them a shield allies hitting a marked enemy slows them (slow stacks) creates AoE's that grant shields throwing projectiles that block other projectiles creating an small AoE that allows them to quickly side step an attack and negate it if they are fast enough when it enters (evade tank)

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

got another idea for Sej

Boarfrost (Play on words for Hoarfrost)

PASSIVE: Winter's Wrath and both Sejuani's and nearby allied Melee role melee champions' basic attacks apply Frost to enemy champions, epic, large and medium monsters, super minions and siege minions for 5 seconds, stacking up to 4 times.

ACTIVE: Sejuani twirls her flair on her side nearest the mouse creating a line of frost spikes. Against an enemy with 4 stacks of Frost, Sejuani consumes all stacks to deal magic damage, knocking the frost towards the opposite side of the champion to create a barrier of frost spikes, her next basic attack or single cast of Winter's Wrath will leave a trail of frost spikes along the flail's path. Enemies who cross the frost spikes are damaged and slowed. Sejuani and allies who cross the frost spikes are granted Frost Armor or refresh its duration.

Enemy champions who've had their Frost Stacks consumed cannot gain Frost for 10 / 9 / 8 seconds.

Boarfrost resets Sejuani's basic attack timer.

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