LeBlanc Distortion (W) damage lowered from 85/125/165/205/245 to 75/115/155/195/235
First Irelia gets -5 movespeed when shes broken as fuck now this?
-10 damage on an ability she uses as a gap closer and doesnt land half the fucking time? Gj balance team, ive long since lost faith in you and this change made me laugh.
ProfDrDeath40 votesConsidering that LB uses (and maxes) W as a waveclear tool, small changes there can have big impacts.
-10 damage could, for instance, shift the point where she can clear casters with 1 W notably.
0 Hogapu11 votesexactly this. She will take much more time to rotate and to farm which is quite huge already
"omg silver balance team" though xD
SociaI Justice5 votesShe still clears the wave with the exact amount of spells + autos as she did before the nerf lmao
0 Hogapu3 votesand that is where you are wrong.
Play lb, and you will notice that you need to have somehow a lot of ap + having put 4 or 5 points in your w ton oneshot casters. otherwise, they stand still with around 5 hp. this nerf will delay the point where she can oneshot casters. Making her having to snowball even more if she wants to be unstoppable, and so on.
aezens6 votesCalculation for Distortion + 21 / 45 / 75 damage from 
respectively
minion hp :
4min into the game (~lv3): aa 65.7-71.8 caster = 308 - 326 melee = 509.3 - 546.8
8min into the game (~lv4): aa 71.8-78.9 caster = 326 - 332 melee = 546.8 - 585.5
10min into the game (~lv5): aa 78.9-... caster = 332 melee = 585.5
average actions needed (live):
.........................................caster.................melee lv 3 = 165 + 21 = 186 => 1hit(s) + 3aa => 2hit(s) + 3aa lv 4 = 205 + 45 = 250 => 1hit(s) + 2aa => 2hit(s) + 1aa lv 5 = 245 + 75 = 320 => 1hit(s) + 1aa => 2hit(s)
average actions needed (nerf):
.........................................caster.................melee lv 3 = 155 + 21 = 176 => 1hit(s) + 3aa => 2hit(s) + 3aa lv 4 = 195 + 45 = 240 => 1hit(s) + 2aa => 2hit(s) + 1aa lv 5 = 235 + 75 = 310 => 1hit(s) + 1aa => 2hit(s)
So where exactly is the difference? Can you give an example at which min with what kind of gear there is a difference?
Limrick3 votesYeah that's great and all, but her waveclear is already bad, the problem is she does too much damage to champions for her amount of safety. Her waveclear being slightly worse when it's already not good isn't changing the fact that she is far too safe and does far too much damage.
Tomoe Gozen3 votesYou know the boards - if it's not a gutting nerf to a champion that's FOTM and getting all the playrates/"winrates", the balance team is a joke that is Iron and doesn't play the game...
If every decision to having a strong champion in the game was reduced to cutting their legs off in terms of nerfs and making them unplayable/replaceable by the next in line midlaner, we'd still be in the same situation but the people would complain about the next in line top tier mid pick, after they've proven themselves to be a self-sustained pick.
jäger der pisse15 votesits pbe brother they're just testing it rn
TheSingularity33 votesGenerally everything that goes to PBE has gotten far enough in the development cycle that it will make it into the game (it's already gobe through the playtest team). Exceptions are things that are blatantly messed up, like the bruiser items earlier in the year.
Olga Rajecka18 votesGenerally everything that goes to PBE has gotten far enough in the development cycle that it will make it into the game (it's already gobe through the playtest team). Exceptions are things that are blatantly messed up, like the bruiser items earlier in the year.
To be fair, most people would rather have the nerfs come in slowly than seeing LB get butchered.
Nausicäa 31 votes[{quoted}](name=xG Spectre,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ozMjftx2,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-30T22:24:11.729+0000)
To be fair, most people would rather have the nerfs come in slowly than seeing LB get butchered.
to be fair you're wrong because no one likes playing against Leblanc
SwiftKitten8811 votes[{quoted}](name=Nausicäa ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ozMjftx2,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-30T22:41:19.280+0000)
to be fair you're wrong because no one likes playing against Leblanc
i actaully found facing her quite enjoyable after she was reworked ( excluding the initial week or two when she was overtuned) it was a fair and interactive matchup and was literally the only successful thing riot did the the ENTIRE "assassin update".
of course they go and revert that XD [zombie-brand-facepalm].
ps the statment that "lb mains hated it"
yeah SOME of them did.
some others loved it.
my friend loved the rework.
people who enjoyed the satisfaction of winning because they outplayed the opponent or outsmarted them. enjoy champ that win by doing such.
as one of those people i am generally freind with others of those people..
i mean sure i can take a broken OP champ and i can carry with it... but i literally get no satisfaction of out abusing what is broken.
at the same time.. i HEAVILY hate matchups that where my opponent is frankly just BAD. i want a challenge.. i want my opponent to "outplay me"
i want to go "damn that guy is good" and not "wow what a busted champ"
and believe me just a few days ago i had a challenger opponent on the opposing team.. and i saw him play REALLY well.
it wasn't "he was broken becuase he was fed" i was .. i go to gank mid lane where he is... and he executes is play prefectly.. and im like... damn.. he played that perfectly... that was amazing.
i didn't feel like the CHAMPION he was playing was "OP" i felt like.. "damn that dude can play that champion well". he outplayed me so hard right there.
this is the feeling leage has mostly lost for me.
all i ever see now are people who play like shit but are on broken champs and therefore can carry even though this make stupid mistake after stupid mistake. their champ is so freaking overloaded that they can get away with it.
when i win, i want to it be because i out-played my opponent.. not because i picked a "broken meta champ" any many of my friends think the same way i do.
Olga Rajecka8 votes[{quoted}](name=Nausicäa ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ozMjftx2,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-30T22:41:19.280+0000)
to be fair you're wrong because no one likes playing against Leblanc
Where do you get your statistics from because I love playing against her. So that's your argument destroyed already.
It's not just LB though. No champion should be butchered when you have 2 week patch cycles. All it does is continually screw up the champion balance. If you butcher 4-5 champions every 2 weeks in a year you game's balance is absolutely fucked. Relative strenghts of champions have been absolutely screwed and if you introduce new items / runes / map changes on top of that, you get an unbalanceable mess of a game.
For now, they're actually making correct balance decisions - do small nerfs every 2 weeks until the champion becomes balanced. Players have 2 weeks to understand the changes and Riot gets the data that helps them decide whether the changes were / weren't enough.
Nausicäa 3 votes[{quoted}](name=xG Spectre,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ozMjftx2,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2018-10-30T23:19:44.822+0000)
Where do you get your statistics from because I love playing against her. So that's your argument destroyed already.
Coming from the person who claimed that
To be fair, most people would rather have the nerfs come in slowly than seeing LB get butchered."
Where do you get your statistic from? GJ being a hypocrite tho.
Olga Rajecka3 votes[{quoted}](name=Nausicäa ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ozMjftx2,comment-id=000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-10-31T02:35:57.406+0000)
Coming from the person who claimed that
Where do you get your statistic from? GJ being a hypocrite tho.
From Boards, pro players and analysts. There are countless Beyond the Rift episodes, Hotline League whose topic often times is patches and their impact on the game. Most people in those episodes agree that 2 week patch cycles with huge changes negatively impact the game. Even Doublelifts video "The Downsides of a Constantly Evolving Game" hit the mark quite well. Those are the statistics.
Nausicäa 3 votes[{quoted}](name=xG Spectre,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ozMjftx2,comment-id=0000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-10-31T02:47:12.785+0000)
From Boards, pro players and analysts. There are countless Beyond the Rift episodes, Hotline League whose topic often times is patches and their impact on the game. Most people in those episodes agree that 2 week patch cycles with huge changes negatively impact the game. Even Doublelifts video "The Downsides of a Constantly Evolving Game" hit the mark quite well. Those are the statistics.
You've talked to pro players and analysts and they've all said they like playing against Leblanc? Seems legit.
Olga Rajecka3 votes[{quoted}](name=Nausicäa ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ozMjftx2,comment-id=00000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-31T08:51:09.395+0000)
You've talked to pro players and analysts and they've all said they like playing against Leblanc? Seems legit.
Playing against Leblanc? What are you on about? The argument is about patch cycles and their negative impact on the game. I think you're lost here, buddy.
Beast Brawler1 votesI think you're the one that's lost, you were originally talking about LB and then you jumped to something else and tried to say he'd lost the argument because he wanted to keep talking about LB instead of general game balance. You're the one that's going off topic m8
Olga Rajecka2 votes[{quoted}](name=Beast Brawler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ozMjftx2,comment-id=0000000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-01T12:38:02.927+0000)
I think you're the one that's lost, you were originally talking about LB and then you jumped to something else and tried to say he'd lost the argument because he wanted to keep talking about LB instead of general game balance. You're the one that's going off topic m8
"To be fair, most people would rather have the nerfs come in slowly than seeing LB get butchered." - this is strictly a comment about balance that used Leblanc as an example. It is also the first comment i made.
"Ok, if you want to relearn the game every 2 weeks that's fine. Most people don't. And in fact, butchering champs every 2 weeks would just bring us back to Season 4-5-6 when you had 3 viable champions in every role and that's it." - a comment on how the patch cycles impact the meta. It is the second comment I made.
What are you even on about? Even this post isn't about Leblanc. It's about balance. The champion could literally be replaced by anyone and it wouldn't change the context of the post.
Cloud27342 votes[{quoted}](name=xG Spectre,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ozMjftx2,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-30T22:24:11.729+0000)
To be fair, most people would rather have the nerfs come in slowly than seeing LB get butchered.
speak for yourself
ModWulf Helhammer20 votesIf you want a balanced game, then having a philosophy of “don’t kneecap something when it’s strong” is an absolute must.
TatWhiteGuy23 votesSomeone tell Eve and Olaf that, because riot sure as shit didnt
ModWulf Helhammer12 votesOld times.
Also, seeing as you realize it’s bad, then you shouldn’t want it to happen to anything, even for champs you personally don’t like.
Just 4 Memes13 votesWu showed up in the LCS and immediately after got hit with 2 direct nerfs + 1 indirect nerf. Immediately. Irelia gets -5 movement speed weeks after people complained lmao.
Oakleaf Ranger6 votesWtf you talk like that was only nerf she has ever gotten since her rework.
Ragnaveil5 votesGuess people forgot she got hotfixed on release and her Q and damage got nerfed a shit ton over the weeks.
Oakleaf Ranger3 votesShh...
Your supposed to forget stuff like that. I mean otherwise how else would rants like these work?
NineTailedMystic3 votesPress X to doubt.
ModWulf Helhammer4 votesSo you want a game state where something gets strong, then is destroyed and useless for a while, before inevitably buffed back up, leading the cycle to repeat again and again?
That’s not how you make a balanced game.
DrCyanide8 votesYou don't start carving a statue with your finest chisels. You start by taking big sections out until you are close to the shape you want, then going down to smaller and smaller chisels.
Balance should work similarly, with those that are grossly out of line getting the largest changes. What you're seeing is people complaining about small changes on someone who needs bigger changes for now.
ModWulf Helhammer3 votesExcept nothing in this game is a raw block of marble. They’re all completed statues with small excesses.
You use the large hammer when you’re designing the champ. Give them all the cool tools that you dream off, then you slowly narrow down their number and individual power until you land on a completed design.
If all you’re doing is just hard nerfing whenever something gets strong, you’re just creating an endless roller coaster of unbalance. X is strong, so you destroy that. Now Y is strong, so you delete that. Now Z has the problem, but also X is too weak so you need to buff it, which now since Y is too weak nothing can stop it so now you change more stuff...
And you get the point.
DrCyanide4 votesYou're right, it's not marble. They can add in equal increments as they can take away. The general concept still holds true, regardless of if you're adding or subtracting power/frustration from the kit. Yes, they're not using the jackhammer like they were in the champion design stage, but the still make incredibly fine adjustments for champions that need more adjustment, while also making incredibly rough adjustments to champions that need fine tuning.
You don't honestly believe that LeBlanc's damage/frustration issues were so close to perfect that -10 damage is going to fix it, do you? Or that she only needs -10 damage here, -5 MR there, and she'll be fine?
If all you’re doing is just hard nerfing whenever something gets strong, you’re just creating an endless roller coaster of unbalance.
Hard nerfing is just as problematic as soft nerfing when the problem requires the opposite tool, and both result in a more drawn out balancing process than needed.
Tomoe Gozen1 votesSo what do you think LeBlanc's nerf should've been? A -50 damage on her W, just for good measure? That would've been a nerf that guts her.
DrCyanide2 votesI haven't played in months, but since it's LeBlanc there's a few likely places to nerf.
Her break tether range could be reduced. That would serve multiple purposes, as it would make it feel possible to escape once it initially hits, and if they escape prevent them from taking the root damage. If other players feel like they have more ability to play against LeBlanc, her ban rate will also fall.
The damage reduction on her W feels like it's mostly an attempted to weaken early game wave clear (and slightly weaken early game all ins) while being less noticed in the later stages of the game. This balancing act between W's wave clear, champion damage, and mobility has been going on for years, so if it's still a problem then it might be time for Riot to consider a separate damage to Minions ratio for the ability. It would allow both damage use cases to be balanced, without one or the other being too strong.
That should give you a feel for the size of "chisel" I think LeBlanc needs. No part of that needs to be a gutting, but it does need to be more than -10 damage.
Tomoe Gozen2 votesMaking an ability to do different damage to minions/champions looks to me as an easy way to ruin the feel of an ability rather quickly. I know that a few of the champions do have such scalings but in my opinion, it just makes the usage and damage all the more confusing since it's not consistent.
As for her chain range, yes. I've been wanting to know why is LeBlanc's chain range that long and it makes no sense to me that she's allowed to extend it that far beyond her indicator when she literally has two dashes built into her kit. That makes her really dumb to play against because she can stay as far away as possible from a champion and only engage when she is sure they have limited options to act against her.
Her W need a weaker early game because that means harder CSing and more opportunity to play against LeBlanc before she just becomes the old Sivir of mid lane and not allow any interaction unless she's ready. Will this be enough? I guess we'll see about that.
painkills6 votesWell, a sledgehammer was used on Wukong. Irelia has been dominant and shes corrected with a slightly stiff toothbrush.
Limrick2 votesAnd if you want a fun game, then having the philosophy of "kneecap it if it isn't fun to play against" is an absolute must.
ModWulf Helhammer7 votesAnd what about the people that enjoy playing the thing that just got hard nerfed into unviability? Does their fun just not matter?
No one’s preferences are above another's.
What one finds unfun, another finds the perfect way to play, and yet another just doesn’t care about it at all. You are never going to be able to decide anything if you are dictating based on “fun” or any other subjective measure. That’s why Riot has to focus on statistics.
OnlyYouCanHearMe2 votesYou are right in every sentence.
This message should be "sticky" for everyone to see when a post of balancing come again.
painkills2 votesTheres another post lying around about how "fun to play AGAINST" shouldnt be a criteria in balancing. Most things dont feel fun to play against if you lose. The focus should be on what is fun to play AS and if that fun is fair for other players with other champs.
3TWarrior2 votesdoesn't that mean that 90% of the roster needs a rework because only 10% have the tools necessary to be fun at all times?
Olga Rajecka3 votesspeak for yourself
Ok, if you want to relearn the game every 2 weeks that's fine. Most people don't. And in fact, butchering champs every 2 weeks would just bring us back to Season 4-5-6 when you had 3 viable champions in every role and that's it.
KmSneaky2 votesMost people never had to learn the game in the first place since riot made sure the game was "fast and welcoming" that's why we have so many stupid braindead champions around here, like lb for example, who got reverted to her Q RQ to kill state, because it's more welcoming :D who would want champions with actual thinking process all over the place , just go for tank/bruisers or assassins ;D
Olga Rajecka1 votesMost people never had to learn the game in the first place since riot made sure the game was "fast and welcoming" that's why we have so many stupid braindead champions around here, like lb for example, who got reverted to her Q RQ to kill state, because it's more welcoming :D who would want champions with actual thinking process all over the place , just go for tank/bruisers or assassins ;D
Original Leblanc and Reworked Leblanc are identical in every way except the rework version put a delay to her burst which is fucking terrible for an assassin especially one as squishy as Leblanc.
The fact that most people never had to learn the game is why most people are silver / gold.
KmSneaky4 votesHonestly it's all the way up to diamond, the only difference is game knowledge (when people are not straight up unable to press buttons...) , outplays are so rare now it's painful, season 8 outplays are basicly "we're 2-3 on you with more unavoidable damage than your HP" Cf, damage creep through runes/ items with dmg procs (drakthar/stormrazor/rapidfirecanon/deadman's plate etc...) I haven't felt outplayed in years, broken kits replaced the thought process, you just have to check the meta to realize it, and the recent reworks/new characters clearly illustrate my point.
TheSingularity10 votesI agree with the concept, I disagree with the overall statement of
most people would rather have the nerfs come in slowly than seeing LB get butchered.
The majority, those who don't play lb or have been been around long enough to experience the monster she was pre silence removal. Or really any champion that's infamously irritating/unfun: zoe, akali, kat, riven, yas, morgana and any assassin pre silence removal come to mind.
Would rather these champions be decimated and vaporized and slowly bought back up in power, than gradually weakend with pointless tiny nerfs that will take eons to add up
PaffWasTaken14 votesCommunity: "Hey Riot, Leblanc's chain is way too long and her cooldowns are way too short, please change this"
RITO: "UUUUUMMMMM... Do we really have to nerf Leblanc?? She is getting a new skin soon and we'll make a lot of money with the egirls players maining her"
Community: "Well if you don't nerf her you'll look pretty deranged"
RITO: "Oh, ok then" *Barely Nerfs W*
Community: *Facepalm*
ModWulf Helhammer27 votesThe boards don’t understand a thing about nuance.
Nor balance.
The second Riot starts taking tips from here on how to balance things is the second the game dies.
Nausicäa 11 votesThe boards don’t understand a thing about nuance.
Nor balance.
The second Riot starts taking tips from here on how to balance things is the second the game dies.
You obviously do though because you're just smarter and better than everyone here. Gj trying to act smug and superior on an internet forum. Im really impressed.
Oakleaf Ranger8 votesI mean i like it.
Because its the truth, this game would be broken and dead if they balanced around the ideas of the people like you who think yasuo should be deleted.
I say yasuo because the things you complain about sounds exactly like a omg gut yasuo/zed/leblanc/fizz/anything I personally dislike thread.