Alright, let's talk about ranked, climbing in ranked and how that relates to skill

HateDaddy··38 votes·7,539 views

Before you continue reading, you should know this will likely be a long post. I will include a tl;dr but I feel it won't do justice to the real message here. Also, keep in mind that while I could post this in Tips and Tricks, I prefer this board because it has the most traffic and more people are likely to read it, and as a result, hopefully get a better perspective on rank. And this is related to gameplay so I think it's fine here.

Let's talk about ranked here. What does your elo/rank mean? To be honest, it's more of an arbitrary number or ranking that means very little in relation to skill. Certainly, at each rank/elo/league, there's likely a bare minimum of requirements in terms of mechanics and knowledge and that relates to skill but I think, as a player trying to climb or being anxious over winning and losing, thinking your rank directly correlates to your skill is incorrect. Let me explain:

When I play ranked, certainly every game I'm trying my hardest to play well and win. We've all been there though, there are some games you flat out just can't win. Too many deaths by your teammates, dc's/afks or Flamers that just make the game so incredibly unfun, it impacts someone's play negatively and can cause mistakes that lead to losses. This isnt unique to anyone, it happens to everyone at every elo. Thinking this only happens to you is foolish and is a terrible perspective that only holds you back. Remove this thought all together.

So why does this mean ranked doesn't fully tell your story or directly correlate to your skill? For starters, solo queue is a team game. Your ability to play in a 5v5 situation with 9 other strangers takes skill and is still measured by this but it doesn't fully tell your story. That's not to encourage those who say "haha! See! Told you! Feeders hold me back!" On the contrary, it's quite the opposite. Playing in solo queue is learning how to succeed with random players. These players could be amazing, they could be trash. We've all heard it before: you're far more likely to have less feeders than the enemy team because you can control one of the players on your team: you. So knowing this is the situation, it's completely pointless to focus on your teammates gameplay - it's counterproductive and doesn't at all help you improve. You can chalk up winning and losing games to bad teammates play but when you're done reading this, you'll realize winning and losing is just a byproduct and doesn't matter much.

So what am I saying? Here's a good way to look at ranked play: it's a measurement of your improvement as a player. Each game, win or lose, your focus should always be on you and your gameplay. You need to take away what you could've done better. For example, did you CS poorly? Why did you CS poorly? Was csing poorly a result of brawling in lane a lot and roaming and helping your team or just poor csing mechanics in general? Your bot lane fed hard? Could you have helped them? Could you have carried them? What could you have done to maybe help the team instead if they weren't worth helping?

Each game, you need to be asking yourself these sort of questions about YOUR gameplay. As ranked is a measurement of your improvement; youre improving, you rise, you aren't improving you fall or stay in the same area, it is important to know that focusing on your gameplay is what leads to direct improvement. Because of improvement, you're likely winning more than losing, and as a result the winning/losing is a byproduct of improving or not improving. In my mind, this is a much healthier approach because it focuses 100% on your gameplay, you become less anxious over winning/losing and in all probability you're less toxic towards your teammates because you rule them out entirely.

There's a few things worth noting here: this takes several games, not just a small sample. You're not going to play 10 games, win 8 and say "yeah I've improved a ton!" On the flip side, you're not going lose 8 out of 10 and think that you're getting worse or not improving. This is basically your perspective over an entire season measuring where you start and where you finish, and that's a general area, not a specific one.

It's also worth mentioning that sometimes, games are just straight up unwinnable and there's absolutely nothing you could've done. But it's important to draw that conclusion by focusing on what you could've done differently to help your team, evulate your own individual mistake and come to a conclusion that regardless of what you did, chances of you winning weren't good. This approach alone improves your ability to focus on winning first and fixing the weak links or just abandoning them all together in favor of helping the stronger ones. And at that point, it's still focusing on your gameplay that helps you improve, win or lose. And over a course of several games, with this approach, you will definitely win more than lose. And the winning and losing at that point is a byproduct of your improvment and constant focus on your own gameplay. That is always the most important thing in a land of random players you've very little control over.

Tl;dr focus on your own play. It's what's important and winning and losing is a byproduct of your ability to improve or lack thereof. This really doesn't do it justice honestly.

109 Comments

alcatrazEscapee12 votes

Your rank will reflect your mmr, after enough games are played. Your mmr will reflect your skill level, after enough games are played Your skill level also improves over a series of games.

How I view ranked is that, if you stay at a constant skill level, eventually you will find yourself where you deserve to be. If your constantly improving, it just takes longer.

That said, a loss doesn't hold you back. If you get demoted / lose a promo series / lose a single game, it doesn't affect your skill level. All it effects is how long it will take you to average out at your deserved rank.

Also: Well said, very concise and well structured post. +1

HateDaddy5 votes

{quoted}

Your rank will reflect your mmr, after enough games are played. Your mmr will reflect your skill level, after enough games are played Your skill level also improves over a series of games.

How I view ranked is that, if you stay at a constant skill level, eventually you will find yourself where you deserve to be. If your constantly improving, it just takes longer.

That said, a loss doesn't hold you back. If you get demoted / lose a promo series / lose a single game, it doesn't affect your skill level. All it effects is how long it will take you to average out at your deserved rank.

Also: Well said, very concise and well structured post. +1

I think a thing to add here, and this is more of a tip, is how you can avoid demoting. When you lose 2 in a row, STOP PLAYING RANKED. Go into a normal, play pacman, eat a hotdog - do something to take your mind off it and refocus. I've only demoted 3 times in the last 2 1/2 seasons since the new ranked system was implemented and that includes a climb from silver 1 to plat 1 in season 3. 2 games doesn't have to be your threshold but you should figure out your what should be, I've found 2 to be best for me.

Skouriasmenos11 votes

{quoted}

Your rank will reflect your mmr, after enough games are played. Your mmr will reflect your skill level, after enough games are played

But noone tells you HOW MANY those games are considered ENOUGH ... {{summoner:2}}

Let us ask the university of Iowa about a much more simple statistic, the coin toss :

http:/ /homepage. stat. uiowa. edu/ ~rdecook/stat1010/notes/Section_6.3_law_large_numbers.pdf (the forum denies the pdf link, just copy paste it and remove the spaces)

according to this, in order to actually get to the projected and desired 50% (which logic says that should practically happen after "enough" coin tosses) you have to try around 1000 coin tosses.

Now, if such a simple problem, needs such a huge amount of effort to reflect "the real possibilities", then it goes without saying that in such a complex situations and problems, with multiple factors affecting the outcome, then noone can play "enough games" unless they dedicate all their waking hours to do so. :p

Add to that the changing game and meta and you have to call the argument "Your mmr will reflect your skill level, after enough games are played" a total and complete fallacy. ;)

T RexHasTinyArms1 votes

So I didn't read the link, but I'm curious since it's the wording you stated if that is the number at which you are so certain to have a statistical average that the probability of not being there is negligible?

If it is, then the number that we can safely assume is needed to accurately guess the approximate rank and skill level of your 50% coin flip (or MMR in our needs) is actually much lower. If you are trying to figure out if someone's skill level is the mid silver MMR they have now (assuming they don't get better as they play and are just repeating games with out trying to improve or improving through incidental learning) then it may take 1000 games to be sure that their win/loss will be at 50% and this is the exact MMR that reflects their skill. However, that's not really what we need. For this we can use confidence intervals to increase the range and decrease the number of games needed to find a good idea of skill level. If you are on the perfect border between divisions for your MMR and believe you are gold 5 instead of silver 1, or diamond 5 instead of plat 1, this may not work, bc you may need to play the 1000 games to get perfectly to your higher level, but you may need to play even less than confidence intervals would need bc you get lucky.

The thing is if we use confidence intervals and you are at 1250 w/ X games played, I can say with way less than 1000 games that you are between 1200 and 1300 MMR with 95% accuracy (so if you did play the 1000 games you'd almost always end up in that 1200-1300 MMR which is essentially the same and no one cares about the difference that much). So saying that after enough games is a total fallacy is a bit of a fallacy it self. To get the perfect number an absurd amount of games that very few people could play in a season is probably what's required. But to be reasonably sure that it reflects skill level accurately you can get that done in a season w/out too much difficulty. The real number is probably around 200 or so, but I'm lazy and not doing the math :D

Skouriasmenos1 votes

[{quoted}](name=T RexHasTinyArms,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oyzXJhih,comment-id=000100010001,timestamp=2015-05-12T18:18:39.266+0000)

So I didn't read the link, but I'm curious since it's the wording you stated if that is the number at which you are so certain to have a statistical average that the probability of not being there is negligible?

If you do check the link, in page 7 you will see that in 1000 instances, even simple problems like dice-rolling can have a significant deviation from the theoretical probability.

So, no, complext problems like LoL ranking EXACTLY because they are more complex (you yourself mention some of those reasons) , they are much more difficult to gauge in that "spam spam spam" way some people claim that statistics would imply.

Well statistics are quite clear in saying that there are no such implications ... quite the opposite

The thing is if we use confidence intervals and you are at 1250 w/ X games played, I can say with way less than 1000 games that you are between 1200 and 1300 MMR with 95% accuracy (so if you did play the 1000 games you'd almost always end up in that 1200-1300 MMR which is essentially the same and no one cares about the difference that much). So saying that after enough games is a total fallacy is a bit of a fallacy it self.

Actually no ... not only because of the aforemention things, but also because there is a huge difference in the amount of time one might need to reach the "theoretical probability" is VERY DEPENDED on the starting position ... ;)

Might I interest you with the simulated annealing method .?. :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_annealing

Just click on it and skim through it ... tis very interesting :)

Space Bum1 votes

He was using very presumptuous reasoning. You can't play enough games to reflect your skill in solo queue. A team can easily do it but not a single player.

Check out this post I made a while back.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/FxAAx5Ob-everyone-has-the-same-chance-of-getting-bad-teammates-redux

Skouriasmenos1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Like Hugs,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oyzXJhih,comment-id=00010001000100000000,timestamp=2015-05-12T20:34:09.513+0000)

He was using very presumptuous reasoning.

Check out this post I made a while back.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/FxAAx5Ob-everyone-has-the-same-chance-of-getting-bad-teammates-redux

A very interesting post ... :)

We used to argue a lot about such things back in the days of the main EU forum, but alas it has always been a discussion that few can follow and fewer bother to ... so, the end result is that a couple of days later you'll hear again and again the same unreasonable things that everyone repeats without pausing to ponder about them for a second ...

kinda sad and predictable situation tbh ...

but to enhance your point it is not only individual skill matchups that makes things complicated but also :

  • The side of your team (some picks and counterpicks and strategies depend on the side you are on)
  • Everchanging meta-game
  • Possible AFKs/trolls/flammers (someone can be a good player and an abysmal flammer that spoils teamplay with his verbal reactions)
  • The miltitude of decisions that are inherent in the game and which everyone makes every minute ... indeed, a game can "turn around" at any given point in time, without any apparent and quantively recorded reason
  • Also the win-loss progression is quite important ... I daresay that if you do 50 loses in a row (landing in bronze V) and 50 wins in a row after that, then you might climb to Gold ... but if you do alternatively 1win and 1 loss all the time you shall remain STATIC in your tier and division since you will not be able to win any series ;)

There are more issues, but it is late at night so those are enough atm ...

Space Bum1 votes

That's all in my post. I just didn't zoom in on it.

Skill covers player issues and knowledge. (counterpick, afk, reaction, ect...) The frequency and timing of coin flips covers Rank progression.

Space Bum1 votes

Some people also have trouble understanding that...

Just because A>B and B>C does not necessarily mean that A>C

T RexHasTinyArms1 votes

So it has been a little while since I did real math and it appears to be somewhat similar to deterministic operations research in terms of trying to find the optimal solution to a problem. If that's right I'm not entirely sure how it relates to ability to play enough games to find an approximate MMR that is accurate within a reasonable error range. Maybe you could explain in layman's terms and I could get it? I have some math back ground but it's limited to my undergrad since my grad school is Ed Psych so while they do stats for research, the majority of it you can just run computer and a lot of people in that program are terrible at math so I realized I could be lazy about it and still be considered okay.

Perhaps you can explain where I went wrong with reasoning if I explain the approach I was coming from a bit more accurately. I was approaching the problem from a measurement and eval stand point. Essentially measuring particular skills or such doesn't matter as much as predictive validity of the assessment. If you're familiar with your math at the level it seems like you are you probably understand that the idea w/ a confidence interval and assessment isn't that we are approaching the probability average, but that you can predict with accuracy that repeated tests will land you within the same score range.

Essentially I was looking at it from the perspective of "MMR should predict how likely X player is to win when matched with random team members against random team members." Ideally the random team members are pulled from similar MMR range, but the main point is that there should be a balance over the games, so 100 games would give you 900 chances for good or bad players. Assuming that the random variability comes in the form of teammates then it is a 9-1 ratio for games to probability instances, but the main focus is that instead of trying to approximate a win loss 50% we are trying to asses the range in which you are likely to win and likely to lose at close to the same rate (so probably varying from 45-55% win rate and balancing out as you win and lose and bounce around a little). The reason I was coming at this problem from this direction is because skill is a complex construct and involves a lot of different aspects. If MMR approximates the level of skill then it's goal is to place you in a range you are neither particularly likely to win or to lose based on your ability to influence the game. Stuff like Beck's Depression Inventory can make a reasonable approximation of a complex construct like severity/impact of depression w/ pretty limited number of questions. IQ tests are large batteries but sub scales are almost never triple digit question totals. Essentially assuming that each game is a response to a question, is this group of random players one you can influence the out come of a game or not, and using that to try and approximate a skill level. Instead of reflecting true score we are only trying to approximate it to within a particular range with reasonable confidence (after all the system is pretty decent if 1 in 100 gold level player is inaccurately assessed as silver level). Because the question is simple, a greater skill disparity will result in the assessment being able to identify and push it faster (a challenger player starting in bronze 5 will have a much higher win rate than a silver level player starting in bronze 5 so the game can push the opponents to a higher level faster and keep asking the question).

I guess that was my thought, and may be a very inaccurate idea of how the system should work, but if the goal is to predict the ability of a player to influence out come of a game against and with random players in a certain range, shouldn't it take less games to approximate this predictive score since many of the variables are things you can ignore in terms of controlling since they apply to everyone? I'm probably off here, but like I said it's been a long time since I've done real math and since it's a fluid system (moving you up and down based on skill) you'll never approximate a perfect win rate percentage, but you may be able to predict that a player won't win or lose an excessive amount of games within a particular range of who they are matched against (using a much lower number of games to make that prediction) and have that hold true if their skill didn't change over 100k games if they played that many (which would never happen).

ArkenStorm1 votes

Not disagreeing, just putting stuff out there. I agree with you(and upvoted, but w/e who cares)

"After enough games are played" is kind of vague though, because in statistics, that is the same as saying "in the long run," which means after an infinite amount of times. Which could be what you mean, and I would certainly agree, but its kind of untrue because after infinitely many games, you should certainly have improved, at least a little. if you have not improved after an amount, lets say 5000, of games,t hen you are doing something horribly wrong.

CoolKnightST4 votes

Climbing the ladder before plat shouldn't even count since your pretty limited what you can do when it comes to champions. Playing high skill champs & team depended champs are always a risk when you & your team doesn't have the mechanics to back it up. The perfect examples are Soraka & Janna. You can play the role perfectly when still losing the game when your adc is the weak link of your team. You can hold top with an ignite flash toplaner like Teemo only to realise your team is falling apart in the mid & botlane. You can play a waveclear mage mid like Orianna only to realise your team doesn't have experience to play arround it & they keep dieing randomly arround the dragon. Under plat it's really hard to play a champion anything other than something with carry potentional.

But their is more, sometimes it's you that is the weak link of your team. Maybe your laning against a diamond Riven or your facing a jungler that has the mechanics to bypass your well placed wards. It's so crutial to play a well rounded champion on that point, that's even usefull even when your falling appart or is difficult to lose pressure with. This are the primary factors to succeed under plat.

These are the champion that I recommand to you (under plat):

  • TOP: Lissandra Irelia, both these champions scale with skill and will have more effect the longer you play them. If you want something safer you can go for Maokai Renekton or DrMundo(mundo only vs dubble AP)
  • MID: Orianna Lissandra, both these champions scale with skill and will have more effect the longer you play them. If you want something easyer you can go for Annie.
  • JUNGLER: XinZhao (carry), Vi (warior), Volibear (tank), adc's under plat have less experience with kitting. This is way champion that can stick to these target work so well. For AP junglers it's a little bit harder but if you need something I would go for Amumu.
  • ADC: Graves Jinx Caitlyn , if you want something more team depended you can go for Sivir. For a more skill based adc Vayne.
  • SUPPORT: Karma Annie Leona, if you want something more team depended you can go for Janna Soraka. Other viable options would be Sona Braum.
Skouriasmenos1 votes

+1 on your comment.

I only post to make a small addition if you do not mind. Another very easy support to play and very impactful as well is Malphite

imho Leona, annie and braum have a small yet serious problem in those tiers ... YOU might do the perfect initiation or make the perfect call, BUT your team might not follow you up on it, resulting to your death and problems for your team. If you flash+stun as annie, or make a Leona-all-in there is no way to get out ...

But malphite can go in and if thing go pear-shaped he has the tools to get out as well ( inherent tankiness, Q speed buff, he doesn't need flash to initiate so he might have it around to escape).

CoolKnightST1 votes

Malphite might be effective when it comes to it's kit. He scales pretty poor with support itematisation. One of the reason why Maokai support isn't a thing. His AP ratio's are just to good to makes the most out of it. This doesn't mean it's not viable tho. If your a really good Malphite player and you don't have a great support pool. Hell yeah it's viable.

The reason why Annie is so viable in solo Q is that you can't be punished that heavy than when playing a lcs team. This means your can just build full AP & oneshot 2 people. Only the way you play an Annie support is that you all-in on their adc even when they engage on yours. If you get fed you can oneshot almost any champion in the game. Don't stick with the lcs build with the item 3800 rush. Just build something like item 3027, item 3157, item 3001 or item 3165. You will be supprised how effective it is. The higher you go in the bracket it can be punished more & more. But by the time you actualy reach that point. Your in plat in no time.

The reason Leona is effective is that she can tower dive really early in game. And her build is pretty straight towards. Also Leona is one of the strongest all-in supports in the game. She can almost will any all-in past level 2. And ones she hit 6 she will win every single ones of them (when your add least even in lane offcourse). Besides disengage their are not many weaknesses in her kit. Even drunk you can win games with her. And just like the comment I mentioned with junglers. Adc's are just not experienced enouge to kite properly. Leona is one of the best champions to learn when it's the right time to all-in. And ones your fed their are really not many times when all-in is a bad decision.

On Braum I can agrea a little bit. Ever since the previous patch & the release of item 3071 you can be punished a lot more when playing him. The meta just not in his favor & one of the reason why he's harder to find succes with. He simple can't all tank all poke anymore. And he's not far away from a tier 3 spot.

Skouriasmenos1 votes

{quoted}

Malphite might be effective when it comes to it's kit. He scales pretty poor with support itematisation.

You might be surprized ;)

I have many games like this one, so it is not a "one game wonder" ... tanky-malphite can in fact output a decent amount of damage even with zero AP on him ...

CoolKnightST1 votes

To be fair it's with a Kalista ones of the strongest adc right now. Not to mention that these 2 kites are just made for eachother.

The reality is you won't have the peeling tools when you have an inmobile adc & your only hard cc is your ult. Ones you take kalista out of that lane it will be a lot more difficult to get the same pressure.

Skouriasmenos1 votes

{quoted}

To be fair it's with a Kalista ones of the strongest adc right now. Not to mention that these 2 kites are just made for eachother.

The reality is you won't have the peeling tools when you have an inmobile adc & your only hard cc is your ult. Ones you take kalista out of that lane it will be a lot more difficult to get the same pressure.

Well, as I said, I have plenty more instances so the new screenshot might be a bit more interesting ... I purposefully chose stats from defeats (with 3 out of 4 really bad adc players as well) to point out that tank malphite does have the damage in him despite not having AP itemization ... of course he is not the perfect pick, but for mid-low tiers he is still quite ... ehm ... solid :D :p

BluePolarizer2 votes

XinZhao Volibear are terrible even in mid gold because they get kited easily and/or have no escapes. They also have to facetank every skillshot.

Toothierosprey31 votes

Yeah, I really like playing Vi because she seems like she can have a really big impact on the game no matter what. You can gank a lot, and once you get your ult, those ganks are pretty good. Even if your lanes are pushing, you can farm, since Vi has one of the best clears in the game. Even if you can't gank and are getting counterjungled like crazy and fall behind early, you can still change the game by ulting and killing a carry with only two damage items. She's also a good duelist, has lots of mobility, and tons of base damage.

BluePolarizer2 votes

exactly. Vi is still amazing. She can hard carry by herself with her initiation, AOE damage and tankiness. She is much harder to countergank and counterjungle due to her Q wall jump which also lets her flank the enemy team easily and get through the tank line by jumping to wierd spots and avoiding wards. She farms way faster and way safer than Xin and Volibear due to her AOE.

Xin on the other hand is only good if you snowball, because he has very slow clear times compared to other damage junglers like Shyvana MasterYi Vi Udyr Skarner Hecarim and even slower clear times than Maokai Nautilus Gragas . If you don't get ganks off, you'll naturally fall behind.

CoolKnightST1 votes

I guess you didn't read:

adc's under plat have less experience with kitting. This is way champion that can stick to these target work so well

Whe are discussing below plat

BluePolarizer1 votes

even in gold most ADCs can kite decently.

CoolKnightST1 votes

Their is a different between an average gold player and an adc main. I have seen silver adc's do a pretty good job on kitting. But if you would compair 10 adc's from the past 10 games you will see why champions like XinZhao Vi Volibear are so effective on them.

Additionaly factors that should cross our mind is the level of experience supports have with peeling & how to time them properly. Last but not least is the itematisation & the mechanics to use them properly (item 3140 item 3222 item 3190 etc..)

64931067_DEL3 votes

Tons of letters. Also tons of Knowledge, thank you.

HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Melody of Mew,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oyzXJhih,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-05-11T23:28:39.548+0000)

Tons of letters. Also tons of Knowledge, thank you.

I hope it helps

64931067_DEL2 votes

Sorry, but IMO who is really read all your post is know about improve themselves and are not toxic, while the remains still will not.

HateDaddy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Melody of Mew,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oyzXJhih,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-11T23:34:04.798+0000)

Sorry, but IMO who is really read all your post is know about improve themselves and are not toxic, while the remains still will not.

K...I'm REALLY not trying to be mean here, but I have literally no idea what you're trying to say. Is there any way you could rephrase this?

64931067_DEL7 votes

Oh sorry, even me cannot understand which I have written. It should be:

  • Who take time to read all your post are basically well-minded players, and
  • Who are not, who is REALLY need to improve, will not take time to read these things.
HateDaddy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Melody of Mew,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oyzXJhih,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-11T23:44:36.867+0000)

Oh sorry, even me cannot understand which I have written. It should be:

  • Who take time to read all your post are basically well-minded players, and
  • Who are not, who is REALLY need to improve, will not take time to read these things.

That very well may be true but I suspect some will still read.

Ñex2 votes

I'm sorry but you are going to have to make sense of that sentence, because I tried to and failed.

SociopathFriend3 votes

One thing I think people need to stop doing is at lower elo believing higher ranks are so much better than you are. Bronze 5 - Gold 1 is essentially all the same rank. Bronze = Unlucky Silver Silver = Silver Gold = Lucky Silver

Don't panic just because you looked up an enemy and they're higher ranking, odds are they're still well within your skill area and you can take them; so long as you're using a champion you know.

Randomonium3 votes

So true. Can't tell you how many times I've had a guy go 0/9/2 only to find out he's gold or have someone carry the whole team and find out he's Bronze V.

Holîday1 votes

{quoted}

One thing I think people need to stop doing is at lower elo believing higher ranks are so much better than you are. Bronze 5 - Gold 1 is essentially all the same rank. Bronze = Unlucky Silver Silver = Silver Gold = Lucky Silver

Don't panic just because you looked up an enemy and they're higher ranking, odds are they're still well within your skill area and you can take them; so long as you're using a champion you know.

This is not true at all. Someone who has a good amount of games and who can't make it out of bronze is nowhere close to a gold player. I might have agreed with you if you had simply said bronze / silver is mostly the same but while they aren't amazing gold players are definitely a step above bronze tier players.

Skouriasmenos2 votes

{quoted}

So what am I saying? Here's a good way to look at ranked play: it's a measurement of your improvement as a player. Each game, win or lose, your focus should always be on you and your gameplay.

Well, why can't you do that in a normal game, as well .?. What does winning or losing (which is the only thing ELO/MMR actually counts) mean as a "measurement of your improvement as a player".

If GAMEPLAY is what ranked is all about, as you claim, shouldn't we be getting point for OUR gameplay and not our team's .?. ;)

On a very different level, how can anyone claim that a ranking system that has yet to find a way to deal with ELOboosting, trolling, AFKing and account sharing, actually RANKS anything .?. It is beyond any reason that we are expected to play a gazzillion games just so that we can overcome the system's inherent (and in some extent purposeful) faults.

To get back to what you say, if ranked games actually MEASURE personal improvement and it is about us, heck let us inspect ourselves since I am quite a bright example of the opposite. I am silver and have been silver since season 2, not because I am not improving, but because I do not have the time to spam ranked games like there is no tomorrow

oh, yeah, you've heard that nag before, but beware ! I do not blame others, I blame my lack of time and the setup of the system and here is HARD SOLID PROOF :

I'll use my most beloved position's stats, the support and in the same server EUNE, to keep things equal.

  • Season 2 : Most played champion, Taric support : average : 1.1K / 6.4D / 16.6A KDA 2.74 ... rank silver
  • Season 3 : Most played champion, Taric support : average : 1.4K / 4.0D / 13.6A KDA 3.73 ... rank silver
  • Season 4 : Most played champion, Sejuani support : average : 3.0K / 2.7D / 14.3A KDA 6.53 ... rank silver
  • Season 5 : Most played champion, Sejuani support : average : 3.9K / 2.8D / 15.8A KDA 7.04:1 ... rank still silver

Do you see the improvement .?. in the same position, from a decent KDA 2.7 to a stunning 7.04 KDA and I am still silver

what is my "sin" according to the system .?. Not that I am not good enough to rank higher, but I am not "dedicated" enough ... where "dedicated", read "play at least 300-400 ranked per season" ... well if I sum both my ranked accounts, I've played less than 300 ranked games in ALL seasons by my estimation and** that is the only reason that the system does not acknowledge my improvement.**

So, the system tells you "dude we do not care if you are good player, we care if you are a good dedicated, recurrent customer" and that is all the ranking system is ...

To all you "oldies" remember the old much despised ELO system .?. Back then if you had 53% win ratio and let us say 200 games, you'd have been at least gold ... now, with all the snags and traps along the way (division promotional games), you can easily be raising your win ratio and still be stuck to the same tier and division you had always been ... until you spam and spam more games ...

More games is the solution, and not more skills ... this is what the ranking system rewards ... **proof .?. **

There you go : http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=SeeYourSenpai

do you see those games and those KDAs .?. Why is he platinum I .?. **simple **... he spams 10-15 ranked games per day (last season he had played around 1600 ranked games, this time around in half the season he has spammed 828 games and he WILL get diamond eventually ... because spamming solves all problems with that system ) but he has not gotten ANY BETTER than when he was back in bronze V ... **same player, same attitute, same plays, totally same KDA ... bronze V, to platinum I ... ;) **

P.s. Before people kindly start saying that I am sore for being silver, I'll point out that I like it there and I do not really care about my ranking ... which is why I do not fuss about it and play ranked in an significant frequency. Imho the only rank worth mentioning is my S2 ranking which is why I still have the icon on my profile.

P.s. 2 Stats used for my season 4 and season 5 statistics come from my EUNE smurf http://eune.op.gg/summoner/userName=Strumfojeth

The Bíg Ticket2 votes

Personal KDA doesnt matter at all.

Skouriasmenos2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Danielas Kitten,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oyzXJhih,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2015-05-12T11:48:15.243+0000)

Personal KDA doesnt matter at all.

so, if you improve your KDA in the same position, as the time goes by, then that is not a "personal improvement" .?.

Since when .?. :p ... that is actually the definition of it :)

if you mean that it doesn't matter as far as LP and MMR goes, then yes that is so and that EXACTLY the problem and why the personal ranking system in fact is not "ranking" anything concerning your personal gameplay ...

Kazaashi1 votes

{quoted}

so, if you improve your KDA in the same position, as the time goes by, then that is not a "personal improvement" .?.

Since when .?. :p ... that is actually the definition of it :)

if you mean that it doesn't matter as far as LP and MMR goes, then yes that is so and that EXACTLY the problem and why the personal ranking system in fact is not "ranking" anything concerning your personal gameplay ...

This games isn't about your personal gameplay, but how well your teamwork is. This game is about how well you work as a team, weather that team be 5 a man pre-made or 5 random players. You are judged as to how well you are able to work as a team to blow up the enemy nexus, not how well you can blow up the nexus.

Skouriasmenos1 votes

{quoted}

This games isn't about your personal gameplay, but how well your teamwork is. This game is about how well you work as a team, weather that team be 5 a man pre-made or 5 random players. You are judged as to how well you are able to work as a team to blow up the enemy nexus, not how well you can blow up the nexus.

Again, the same point ... would you feel that the chances of teamplay are better with a person with good KDA (and maybe good kill participation ratio) or someone that routinely goes 9-11-9 and has barely a 2 KDA .?.

Which one would you rather have in your team .?. Which one would you feel more likely to work with .?. Which one would you trust more and you'd feel that he wouldn't die a silly death at 40th minute and you'll lose the game .?.

And again, similar points as before ... don't agree that it IS a problem that we are having a PERSONAL ranking ladder based ONLY on team results .?. Am I the only person that finds that blatantly unreasonable .?.

Kazaashi1 votes

{quoted}

Again, the same point ... would you feel that the chances of teamplay are better with a person with good KDA (and maybe good kill participation ratio) or someone that routinely goes 9-11-9 and has barely a 2 KDA .?.

Depends. Does the player with a good KDA get that by taking most of the kills? Does that good KDA player understand the importance of Dragons vs Towers vs Baron. Do they Ward? Do they know how to play from behind? Do they know how to conuter a split push/geurilla warfare?

There are a LOT more things than KDA that go into making a good player and all of them are infinatly harder to quantify.

Which one would you rather have in your team .? Which one would you feel more likely to work with .?. Which one would you trust more and you'd feel that he wouldn't die a silly death at 40th minute and you'll lose the game .?

I'd take the one with the best teamwork. Unfortunatly KDA doesn't really show that.

And again, similar points as before ... don't agree that it IS a problem that we are having a PERSONAL ranking ladder based ONLY on team results .?. Am I the only person that finds that blatantly unreasonable .?

The ranking isn't personal. It is not how good at CSing you are or how well you rotate, split push, or co-ordinate with your teamates. It is an amalgamation of all of those things and more. Ultimately, how often you are able to translate those things into a victory is pretty reasonable.

Skouriasmenos1 votes

{quoted}

Depends. Does the player with a good KDA get that by taking most of the kills?

Well, I've seen people that KS for the gold, but noone can really KS for the KDA, since kills and assist count as the same thing in measuring that ;)

Do they Ward?

How do you reckon someone stays** consistently** alive with NO wards .?. seems like a miracle to me, especially since I watch pro games and a huge amount of them staying alive is not about mechanics, but about vision.

If you are ganked with no vision MORE than if you had vision, you will die even if you are pro-level in mechanics.

So a good average KDA in the long run almost always means a person that wards or at least knows how and when to upgrade and spam his trinket. Remember, we are not talking about one lucky game here, but people who consistently die few times and have many kills or assists.

Do they know how to play from behind?

You do not get to have a good AVERAGE KDA if you do not know that, since you would get wrecked in every loss (around 50% of your games) which would drop your KDA to a typical 2-3 average.

So a good KDA actually means exactly that.

See .?. Good KDA obviously does not answer ALL your questions, but it does adress some very important ones favorably.

I'd take the one with the best teamwork. Unfortunatly KDA doesn't really show that.

As I pointed out ... it actually does give huge indications of it ... It is very rare that a 1 KDA player will be a teamplayer that coordinates with others, helps with wards and focuses on objectives ...

Those guys are usually YOLO solo players that dive for the kills ... besides that is the only way to have a horrible KDA around 1-2 !!

The ranking isn't personal.

Funny, then why does the game distinguishes your team ranking from your SOLO QUEUE ranking .?.

"solo" implicitly defines YOU, so it is personal by definition.

Kazaashi1 votes

I agree. Smart play leads to more wins; therefore, you will be able to climb in rankings. The current system already takes those things into consideration.

There is no need to attempt to quantify and quailfy what smart play means, in an effort to make a computer understand how to properly grade it. It's not financially feasable and would distract from the point of the game: Blowing up the enemy's nexus.

Funny, then why does the game distinguishes your team ranking from your SOLO QUEUE ranking .?.

"solo" implicitly defines YOU, so it is personal by definition.

Yes. Solo Queue tests your personal ability to work with a team of 5 strangers to blow up the other team's nexus first. What ever means you choose to get to that end do not matter.

Skouriasmenos1 votes

{quoted}

There is no need to attempt to quantify and quailfy what smart play means, in an effort to make a computer understand how to properly grade it.

Why not .?. I mean you say that there is no need for it, but apparently in every other team game in the world this actually happens ...

It's not financially feasable and would distract from the point of the game: Blowing up the enemy's nexus.

you mean to tell me that it is "financially feasable" to count how many kilometers a soccer player run in a game (a totally trivial statistic which needs some high teck ideas to implement), but it is NOT "financially feasable" to tweeak the newly instered "champion mastery system" to augment or reduce the amounts of LP and MMR you receive according to your personal contribution to the team .?.

sounds quite illogical ...

Yes. Solo Queue tests your personal ability to work with a team of 5 strangers to blow up the other team's nexus first. What ever means you choose to get to that end do not matter.

Really .?. So how can you explain the people that are mostly getting carried and climbed on pure spamming .?. Are they a good teamplayers according to the system just because they climbed the ladder even by spamming games .?.

Doesn't seem reasonable to me ... but even if it as you say, such a ranking is totally without value ranking your ability to perform a task with strangers, and not your personal worth for a team .?. How lame is that !? :p

Kazaashi1 votes

{quoted}

Why not .?. I mean you say that there is no need for it, but apparently in every other team game in the world this actually happens ...

Payton Manning doesn't get a Super Bowl ring for passing for 400+ yards per game. He gets it by constantly outpreforming (with the help of his team) the defense on the other team. Pretty much every other team game, the only thing that matter is if you win or lose the game.

the only organized team game I can think of that doesn't primarily use wins vs losses is the NCAA BCS rankings, which uses Elo in thier calculations, which MMR is based off of.

you mean to tell me that it is "financially feasable" to count how many kilometers a soccer player run in a game (a totally trivial statistic which needs some high teck ideas to implement), but it is NOT "financially feasable" to tweeak the newly instered "champion mastery system" to augment or reduce the amounts of LP and MMR you receive according to your personal contribution to the team .?.

I was more speaking to the desiging, implementing, and quality assuring a ranking system based on "Personal Performance" being financially unfeasable. Not that statistical data collection was.

On that note: counting the km/s of a soccor player is very different from designing an algorithm that calculates how that stat has a positive or negative impact on a particulare game. You can quantify the shit out of things like that, but good luck qualifying it in a way that makes sense to a computer. On the flip side, it is very easy to qualify how effective a ward placement is, but how do you quantify that to a computer in a not easily exploitable way?

Really .?. So how can you explain the people that are mostly getting carried and climbed on pure spamming .?. Are they a good teamplayers according to the system just because they climbed the ladder even by spamming games .?.

Yes, becasue that means they gave the system enough games to accuratly filter out all the chaff from AFK's/Trolls/DC's/etc. Also, the best way to get better at the game, is to play more games.

Skouriasmenos1 votes

{quoted}

Payton Manning doesn't get a Super Bowl ring for passing for 400+ yards per game. He gets it by constantly outpreforming (with the help of his team) the defense on the other team. Pretty much every other team game, the only thing that matter is if you win or lose the game.

Yeah, for the TEAMS ... but you have no actual team on solo queue, but different random people everytime ... ;)

In that regard, teamsports do have their own awards for good players and most of the times noone cares whether you took a cup in that year or not ... example :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Golden_Shoe

:)

I was more speaking to the desiging, implementing, and quality assuring a ranking system based on "Personal Performance" being financially unfeasable. Not that statistical data collection was.

What is the cost you think makes it "financially unfeasable" if not the actual data-gathering .?.

You can quantify the shit out of things like that, but good luck qualifying it in a way that makes sense to a computer. On the flip side, it is very easy to qualify how effective a ward placement is, but how do you quantify that to a computer in a not easily exploitable way?

A good motto to run in life is "just because I do not know how it can be done, that doesn't make something impossible" ;)

In that regard what you find hard to fathom, I find quite easy ... a ward that is placed within the vision radius of another ward of your team, will have progressively less impact to your score depending on the distance between the two wards.

So if one ward gives you 1 point, then two wards side by side would give you 1.01 points, so you avoid spammers neatly.

Yes, becasue that means they gave the system enough games to accuratly filter out all the chaff from AFK's/Trolls/DC's/etc. Also, the best way to get better at the game, is to play more games.

That guy in the image is the solid proof that this is clearly not as "solid" an argument as you seem to think :p

If you add ELOboosted people to the spammers, you have quite a dilluted ranking to begin with, which ultimately makes it quite worthless tbh ...

Kazaashi1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, for the TEAMS ... but you have no actual team on solo queue, but different random people everytime ... ;)

Right, that is why it is an estimate of your skill in getting 4 other random people to cooporate and try to blow up the other nexus before yours.

In that regard, teamsports do have their own awards for good players and most of the times noone cares whether you took a cup in that year or not ... example :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Golden_Shoe

:)

Which is what champion mastery has done. You get an award when you play a certain champion enough and well.

A good motto to run in life is "just because I do not know how it can be done, that doesn't make something impossible" ;)

There is a big difference between "Financialy Unfeasable" and "Impossible to make". My statement that for the amount of time, energy, and resources that would have to be dumped into creating a system that accuratly accounts for all of the variables that goes into winning a game and qualifies them into some sort of standard of "skillfull" play, and then analyzing other matches and grading them against it.

In that regard what you find hard to fathom, I find quite easy ... a ward that is placed within the vision radius of another ward of your team, will have progressively less impact to your score depending on the distance between the two wards.

So if one ward gives you 1 point, then two wards side by side would give you 1.01 points, so you avoid spammers neatly.

What if the reason the double wards were placed was because the other team has a lot of sweapers and since you can only clear 1 ward with a sweeper, you need to put 2 down in an important vison area?

It also wouldn't be too hard to find the limit of that vision radius and place wards all down your lane to bump up your score.

That guy in the image is the solid proof that this is clearly not as "solid" an argument as you seem to think :p

1 person out of 10s of millions isn't proof. You'll need a lot more than that for proof. Also, who cares about EloBoosters. Obviously the Ranking doesn't mean anything for them because they cheated. The problem is the EloBoosters, not the Ranking system.

FearEngineer1 votes

I've already tried to explain the problem of personal skill being measured by group performance with this guy.

Kazaashi just doesn't get it don't waste your time arguing with him.

Aezander1 votes

{quoted}

I agree. Smart play leads to more wins; therefore, you will be able to climb in rankings. The current system already takes those things into consideration.

Can you elaborate this?

There is no need to attempt to quantify and quailfy what smart play means, in an effort to make a computer understand how to properly grade it. It's not financially feasable and would distract from the point of the game: Blowing up the enemy's nexus.

I am not so sure. There is already a ton of data collected by the game, given how extensive Match History is. I am quite sure that a small percentage of quatification of quality performance can be achieved/implemented. I could be wrong but Champion Mastery might be a step towards it.

Yes. Solo Queue tests your personal ability to work with a team of 5 strangers to blow up the other team's nexus first. What ever means you choose to get to that end do not matter.

No. SoloQueue tests your ability to hold your nerves and your faith to humanity when you attempt to work with a team of 5 strangers, with not nealry enough time to settle at least some of your differences. SoloQueue is mostly about praying to whatever high entity you believe in, cross your fingers and hope for at least a calm game.

Kazaashi1 votes

{quoted}

Can you elaborate this?

If you play smart, you have a higher chance of winning games. If you get 10 CS/minute you have a higher chance of winning games. If you only die 2 times per game, you have a higher chance of winnng. If you properly ward, you have a higher chance of winning the game. I could go on and on and on, but basically every choice and action you make increases or decreases your chances of winning the game Since the game Ranks you on wether you win or lose the game, everything that you do that increases your chance of winning is accounted for. Conversley, everything you do to lose the game is also accounted for.

It is your job to make sure your individual contribution increases your chances of winning.

I am not so sure. There is already a ton of data collected by the game, given how extensive Match History is. I am quite sure that a small percentage of quatification of quality performance can be achieved/implemented. I could be wrong but Champion Mastery might be a step towards it.

True, but now you are asking the system to, not only record all of those stats, but analyse then vs some sort of standard of how the game is supposed to by played? Oh yea, and it also needs not be easily exploited.

No. SoloQueue tests your ability to hold your nerves and your faith to humanity when you attempt to work with a team of 5 strangers, with not nealry enough time to settle at least some of your differences. SoloQueue is mostly about praying to whatever high entity you believe in, cross your fingers and hope for at least a calm game.

Basically a more pessamistic verson of what I said.

Aezander1 votes

{quoted}

If you play smart, you have a higher chance of winning games. If you get 10 CS/minute you have a higher chance of winning games. If you only die 2 times per game, you have a higher chance of winnng. If you properly ward, you have a higher chance of winning the game. I could go on and on and on, but basically every choice and action you make increases or decreases your chances of winning the game Since the game Ranks you on wether you win or lose the game, everything that you do that increases your chance of winning is accounted for. Conversley, everything you do to lose the game is also accounted for.

Most of what you accounted here has some form of impact on your own KDA, so that has been why I said that the KDA shows, in part, your contribution to the teamwork. (More cs/min means more gold, means more items, better impact in teamfight, higher chances of scoring kill(s) and/or assist(s). Less deaths means less gold fo the opponents, means you are alive for more the game, means that you are there for objective taking. Warding allows you to see a gank from miles away (when you look at the minimap that is) and avoid death(s), sets up winning teamfights when you know you have the upperhand on vision against the enemies, get timers (in case everything goes south). Avoiding death, scoring kills and assists, that all goes to your KDA score).

It is your job to make sure your individual contribution increases your chances of winning.

That is in every teambased sport/game. Only most of them have some form of measuring an individual performance and give it some award or recognition .

True, but now you are asking the system to, not only record all of those stats, but analyse then vs some sort of standard of how the game is supposed to by played? Oh yea, and it also needs not be easily exploited.

So with all of the above, I still consider that it is possible to set up a quantifying system to estimate the performance of that player versus his team's. It will by no means be complete (since it will be automated), but at least it will use most of the elements already monitored. Can it be exploited? If it is based solely on KDA, most probably. But if everything possible from the date is used to do so(warding, KDA, towers, drake, Nashor, CCing, cs/min, kill/participation, etc), could it?

Still, I get the feeling that we are talking about this as if implementing such a system would mean that players only gained LP or sth. Which is definitely not the case. In a system like this winning or losing a game still makes you win or lose LP, but the rest of the data allows for modification of that LP amount. That is, if you win a game and the base amount of LP you would win would be +15, depending on your performance for that match it could go between, say, +19 to +11 instead. Same for losing, instead of losing say -10 LP, it could vary upon performance between -13 to -7 LP. On extreme cases it could probably even go lower or higher, on both cases. A system that monitors individual performance can measure a player's consistency, by the way.

At present, measuring your individual ability to teamwork, in solo queue (or more commonly know in my region as SoloQQ ... emoticon tongue ), is non existent. Why? As much as we like to say that ranking, and wins, are a measure of one's ability to work with 4 strangers, that is not entirely correct. Why? Because as much as you desire to work with the other 4, the rest of them might not share that sentiment. So, even if you contribute with your performance towards winning, you have to competed with 4 other people that could be contributing towards losing. Does the system account for that? Does it even acknowledge it? Not so sure about that.

As far as I have seen however, grinding games seems to have a positive effect on ladder climbing (the guy that Skouriasmenos has posted about somewhere in this thread is a shinning example of grinding and one trick pony. He managed to rise as far as Diamond V by using 2 Champions, and in the case of one, just one style (splitpushing (with no TP)), and is now struggling between Pla III and Plat I (atm he is back to Plat I, and frequently using his favourite champion Fiora top, split-pushing with Flash-Ignite 24/7 ... which apparently works for him ... probably because his teammates know how to use a split-pusher on that level ... I hope ... ). His individual performance has not changed. Everytime I have watched him play, the amount of unnecessary deaths he has given has remained constant.

Basically a more pessamistic verson of what I said.

Pessimistic is my kind of tea cup. summoner 31

Stephenizgod2 votes

I use to just straight up blame everything on my Teammates being trash, it wasnt helping me improve at all so i took a break from Ranked. When i came back, i had a new goal in Ranked: I wanted to see how i was performing compared to my opponents and my teammates. I found that i ended with more kills (without being fed, basically kills i earned throughout the game/map rather then just my lane opponent running into me over an over again despite me being stronger) and more objectives then some of my teammates/opponents. I didnt always have the best CS so i looked at that, I had great Warding compared to my teammates but not great as it should be so i looked at that. I also had a problem with roaming, i did it but probably not as good as i should have.

I improved slightly but then i noticed something, i was hard carrying teams. The more Wards i placed the less my team did, i improved CS but it hurt my roaming a bit and my teammates would lose faster. I try to take objectives but im usually alone when doing it, I try to coordinate teamfights but my team is too spread out and wont listen. So i have once again come to the conclusion that it is my Teammates holding me back and i do not have the required skill to help these people. Im not that good at the game, but i do know im at least better then a lot of people at my elo. I think the last 3-4 Ranked games i played had constant toxicity to the point where i was thinking the world would be a better place without these people, so i quit League but i like to go on forums still.

More from Gameplay

More by HateDaddy