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Why not just revert early game Fiora buffs? Seriously?

Ahristocats··69 votes·3,266 views

patch 6.14 fiora buffs were the most uncalled buffs i ever saw she was fine and even picked in lcs and riot said during the patch "lol lcs doesn't mean balance, we like fiora but find her early game too weak, we agree that late game champs should have weak early game but not too weak"

want the real quote?

"Fiora’s a devastating side-lane duelist when given the appropriate support, but she’s struggling to find success outside of the professional scene. As mentioned with Azir above, it’s important for late-game powerhouses to have early windows of vulnerability, but the degree to which Fiora's being punished at early levels is just a bit too high. We’re improving Fiora’s early trade potential to help tip the scales in her favor when the Grand Duelist starts making the right moves."

Passive - Duelist's Dance HEALTH ON VITAL HIT 25-110 (at levels 1-18) ⇒ 30-115 (at levels 1-18)

Q - Lunge RATIO 0.55/0.7/0.85/1/1.15 bonus attack damage ⇒ 0.95/1/1.05/1.1/1.15 bonus attack damage

+40% BONUS AD RATIO AT LVL 1 ON Q HOW IS THAT FINE

no, just no, fiora early game should remain garbage, a hypercarry being able to lane bully should not happen whoever made this buffs should feel extremely bad

i don't get why meddler isn't reverting those buffs already

73 Comments

hhaavviikk25 votes

because that's not how riot works, they try to nerf everything BUT the ability they buffed because if they nerf the ability they buffed it means they made a mistake and riot doesn't make those clearly

Salson15 votes

She needed that buff with the old fervor. New fervor is what made her insane as is stacks up her passive.

Now about the current nerfs. They are nerfing her lategame ability to fight ranged targets, because the lategame belongs to the marksman. This leaves 2 options: -Every toplaner with carry potential should be gutted -Someone in the balance team should be gutted

Ahristocats9 votes

that's a terrible idea, holy shit

Salson3 votes

True, they wouldn't let me play League in prison.

SenzaRespiro8927 votes

Oh yes because lategame noone is supposed to deal with marksmen. Great game design. I slowly start to hate this game so fuckin much.

EndlessSorcerer10 votes

You expect them to admit that the buffs were in error?

Doozku8 votes

Because Riot never ever reverts buffs ever. They'd rather just nerf something else. Idk why people keep asking for reverts to buffs/nerfs because it never happens.

Símo5 votes

Well it needs to happen already dammit,the fucking balance team is taking advantage of riot being located in california and smoking weed everytime they work on a patch.

Bodkins Odds1 votes

Nocturne Oh, really? It never happens?

XOmega WarriorX7 votes

yes,fiora has the Yasuo problem ,both early and late game to strong

Ahristocats17 votes

wait what? i can destroy yasuo as 90% of the toplane roster, give me irelia renekton darius malphite morde

yasuo is only strong at lvl 1 and 2 due to his shield+ressourceless spammable spells, after lvl 3 his early game is terribly weak

once the enemy laner hits lvl 3, they get all their spells and destroy him

Ralanr9 votes

I'd argue that a lot of Yasuo's strength also comes from early spiking crit. He needs just 400 gold for 20%, which can turn some trades in his favor.

Yes I know he does reduced crit damage, but a lucky crit after he gets an item can win a trade.

SquashCannon12 votes

{quoted}

I'd argue that a lot of Yasuo's strength also comes from early spiking crit. He needs just 400 gold for 20%, which can turn some trades in his favor.

Yes I know he does reduced crit damage, but a lucky crit after he gets an item can win a trade.

The only people that will ever complain about yasuo are the people that dont respect his level 2, the only time he is ever a strong laner top lane.

to be fair though, most yasuo complaints come from mid mains, yasuo has almost never been a problem top since he struggles to compete with heavier bruisers, ESPECIALLY juggernauts.

Junkο9 votes

Yep Yasuo gets completely destroyed top lane if you try to pull even half the shit you can pull off on mid laners. E mobility is useless if both of you are most effective in melee range, and most of the time your W is nonexistant top lane. Also a lot of tops have CC, which is what Yasuo hates, a lot.

Really the damage reduction on PD along with double crit is the only reason he doesn't just insta lose most top matchups past level 6.

Shahamut1 votes

Although this is true, does anyone else find it strange that his top lane win rate is higher than his mid lane?

Junkο3 votes

Eh winrates basically mean nothing because of other factors.

In this case Yasuo going top usually means you have an AP mid which means you have a better comp so that increases your chance of winning, Yasuo top also means it's easier to just splitpush all game and be a nuisance if you aren't doing well since you otherwise can't split till bot/top gets abandoned by your team, and having TP also helps extra. Top lane also means you are less likely to be ganked, while mid you can expect to be ganked every time the jungler wants to go to the other half of the jungle by if you are pushing.

Theorchero2 votes

{quoted}

The only people that will ever complain about yasuo are the people that dont respect his level 2, the only time he is ever a strong laner top lane.

to be fair though, most yasuo complaints come from mid mains, yasuo has almost never been a problem top since he struggles to compete with heavier bruisers, ESPECIALLY juggernauts.

Gangplank :(

Skorch1 votes

Im not going to DENY Brawlers glove can help you win fights, although personally I WOULD NOT trust 20% crit to win a fight. I prefer (at 400g) a dagger and 2 pots for the Q CD reduction even small is better than luck.

XOmega WarriorX2 votes

i just said it to get upvotes,as a Mordekaiser main,i really,really like laning vs yasuo:)

Etheręal1 votes

Yeah but then he gets PD+IE and gl farming in lane vs him, he can just kill u in 5 hits and u cant run cuz ur a snail while he has mobility

r4ndomkill1 votes

i dont think your respecting that morde shits out so much damage that almost anything in melee range dies.

Etheręal1 votes

Nah just played vs a fed morde as 2/6 yasuo, once i got pd ie hexdrinker+ mercs he died cause he built glass cannon ap.

PePsiLemoNN1 votes

irelia renekton darius malphite morde

Pretty sure that's not 90% of the top roster :p

Ahristocats2 votes

it's not, but they are currently the toplaners that i play most of toplaners are able to beat yasuo, yasuo has an adventage only over ranged toplaners

even non-garabge tanks destroy him after level 3

NAY Wrecksauce1 votes

Eh yasuo's early game got gutted pretty hard if you know what your doing. He's basically really only a monster mid game now because late game most of the time people know how to properly lock you down

KennysDreamGirl1 votes

say that to my silver buddies

SenzaRespiro897 votes

I quote: As mentioned with Azir above, it’s important for late-game powerhouses to have early windows of vulnerability, but the degree to which Fiora's being punished at early levels is just a bit too high. Gangplank Gangplank Gangplank Gangplank Gangplank Gangplank Gangplank Gangplank Gangplank Gangplank Gangplank Gangplank Gangplank Gangplank Gangplank Gangplank Gangplank Gangplank Where are my buffs?

ChaosThief4 votes

Gangplank does fine if you know what you're doing. Can honestly be quite scary.

SenzaRespiro895 votes

No he does not. He is completely garbage at dia+. You can't go top since you just get towerdived from level 3 on with popular junglers like lee, elise, warwick and there is nothing you can do about and the toplane matchups of fiora, darius, renek, irelia, kled, jayce don't help with that either. You can play him midlane and even win midlane but you will never scale good enough to be actually useful if your team falls behind. You can't follow invades into your jungle which will happen or the enemy jungle which will happen as well. You can't roam, you don't pressure enough to avoid the enemy from roaming and overall the amount of skill you have to invest to win midlane is not even remotely worth it when you can just play orianna and oneshot squishies with RW anyways. If you have a team that knows how to play around a gp e.g. play safe, don't feed, don't necessarily gank his lane, ward appropriately etc. yes he is a beast and he can carry but that's way too many ifs and whens to justify picking him. He is my main with 400k mastery points, climbed to D3 with him, currently D5 again, i know what i'm talking about. Yes, Tobias is currently D2, no not on his main. His MMR has been VERY good to help him get there from last season on his smurf, he plays in NA which in fact is a lot worse in soloQ then other regions, i am sorry. He can do very well D2-1+ where as i said people know how to play with GP and where your jungler will countergank at 3 mins like they should do but all through diamond is terrible and to be honest i wouldn't üick him in master+ either. Only as a counter to tank matchups which is also what noway4u for example says. Challenger gp player.

Theorchero5 votes

{quoted}

Gangplank does fine if you know what you're doing. Can honestly be quite scary.

{quoted}

No he does not. He is completely garbage at dia+.

No, lmao. I know several people personally who main the shit out of him who get to high diamond and master tier.

You can't go top since you just get towerdived from level 3 on with popular junglers like lee, elise, warwick and there is nothing you can do about and the toplane matchups of fiora, darius, renek, irelia, kled, jayce don't help with that either.

Junglers are annoying. But you have a jungler too, and if you avoid pushing the wave it won't be as much of an issue.

Only really bad matchups there are Irelia, Jayce, and Fiora. Gp pokes Kled too hard for him to really be a threat. Play safe vs Rene and Darius and shit on them post 12 mins.

You can play him midlane and even win midlane but you will never scale good enough to be actually useful if your team falls behind.

You scale faster than most other champions in the game, barring them getting super fed. If they get super fed, then it doesn't matter if you picked a typical mid laner as you wouldn't be able to do shit otherwise. GP is useful once he gets triforce, and a good GP is useful once he gets lvl 7 and sheen, it's just way harder to pull off barrel combos and thus it's risky to roam or invade.

You can't follow invades into your jungle which will happen or the enemy jungle which will happen as well. You can't roam, you don't pressure enough to avoid the enemy from roaming and overall the amount of skill you have to invest to win midlane is not even remotely worth it when you can just play orianna and oneshot squishies with RW anyways.

If you have lane priority you can. GP post sheen can shove the wave and roam, or post 6 go help jg and get most of the cs he'd miss by using his ult, or just ulting in his jungle to deter the invade. GP does good damage early with passive, autos, and Q just not in pure all in situations. This is honestly a really specific scenario and it really depends on who all is involved.

If you have a team that knows how to play around a gp e.g. play safe, don't feed, don't necessarily gank his lane, ward appropriately etc. yes he is a beast and he can carry but that's way too many ifs and whens to justify picking him.

Good Gangplanks can and will work around their team. He's the ultimate 1v9 champion.

He is my main with 400k mastery points, climbed to D3 with him, currently D5 again, i know what i'm talking about.

Tell that to someone with 1 million mastery points across multiple accounts, and to all of my friends on the GP mains discord, and the ones who are high diamond/master tier by maining him.

Yes, Tobias is currently D2, no not on his main. His MMR has been VERY good to help him get there from last season on his smurf, he plays in NA which in fact is a lot worse in soloQ then other regions, i am sorry.

Oh please, not at the highest levels. Different meta maybe, overall skill? No.

He can do very well D2-1+ where as i said people know how to play with GP and where your jungler will countergank at 3 mins like they should do but all through diamond is terrible and to be honest i wouldn't üick him in master+ either. Only as a counter to tank matchups which is also what noway4u for example says. Challenger gp player.

One player's opinion on a champion isn't cemented in stone. He's fine mid/top and most of the scenarios you mention can happen regardless of the champion you pick.

SenzaRespiro891 votes

Yes you are right the best players have no idea what they are talking about. Especially the ones with who actually main the champ and feel and know the differences in the meta. Gangplank is shit and deserves buffs if other lategame champs are allowed to have a laning phase. End of story. It's just the typical boards attitude. You hate certain champs and thus they are not allowed to be good.

Edit: I mean you play at plat 5 which is basically gold. You have no idea how abusable GP is by decent players.

Theorchero1 votes

{quoted}

Yes you are right the best players have no idea what they are talking about. Especially the ones with who actually main the champ and feel and know the differences in the meta. Gangplank is shit and deserves buffs if other lategame champs are allowed to have a laning phase. End of story. It's just the typical boards attitude. You hate certain champs and thus they are not allowed to be good.

Edit: I mean you play at plat 5 which is basically gold. You have no idea how abusable GP is by decent players.

Way to not only not read my post, but not realize I haven't played ranked, or league at all really, in months. I've decayed to plat 5 from plat 2, and I was in promos to plat 1.

I don't hate gp, I've mained gp since his original release. before BOTH visual updates.

Players across all elos have success with GP. There's several challenger players who play GP, tons of masters, and tons of ex pros.

TEA Nietzsche 4 votes

whoever made this buffs should feel extremely bad

i don't get why meddler isn't reverting those buffs already

Is that really necessary? I agree that reverting these buffs is probably a good start, but there is absolutely no need to a: voice your concerns in this tone and b: target specific rioters.

Ahristocats9 votes

i target meddler because his decision on that mater is actually important, he himself said that fiora should not win that much match ups in early game, so i don't get why he's not looking at her previous early game buffs and reverting them

TEA Nietzsche 3 votes

I was mostly referring to the first part. No need to tell people that they have to feel bad.

TheMoralSupport2 votes

The balance team carries A LOT of weight on their shoulders, almost like League is the biggest PC game... Imo, something ridiculous as this situation should never occur, especially considering the size of Riot Games. If they f*ck up, they can't feel sorry for themselves.

SpookyNeedle4 votes

Those buffs weren't a problem, the buffs that were a problem were the fervor buffs and AD item buffs.

Rockm Sockm2 votes

{quoted}

Those buffs weren't a problem, the buffs that were a problem were the fervor buffs and AD item buffs.

It is almost like it is some kind of cumulative effect. It is strange how stuff just adds up.

Fiora auto wins lane or goes even. She has no bad matchups. She will outscale you afterwards.

My problem with fiora is she has the best early game, late game, and team fighting of all duelist. You could argue Jax has a better mid but that is splitting hairs.

My boy Azir was gutter dumpstered for far less.

SpookyNeedle1 votes

Pantheon beats Fiora in lane, also your claim of her having the best teamfight of all duelists is an opinion not held by many players.

Azir has amazing zone control so he was more of a problem. Plus his range and ability to spawn a turret.

DunkinNoobs3 votes

A 40% bonus AD ratio at lvl 1 is, at most, around 11 damage assuming full AD runes, longsword start, and natural talent. You're unlikely to find a Fiora that does any of these things and a average ballpark number is around 17 bonus AD or 7 extra damage.

Ahristocats3 votes

and you think it's nothing? look at draven buffs some patch ago

look at darius -10 ad nerf

it's not for nothing that after those fiora buffs she stared to be FOTM and spammed with a huge pick rate

DunkinNoobs3 votes

Not nothing. But you act like it's this super egregious thing when it's really not nearly as much as it seems given how little bonus AD Fiora has early in the game.

VoraciousX7 votes

{quoted}

Not nothing. But you act like it's this super egregious thing when it's really not nearly as much as it seems given how little bonus AD Fiora has early in the game.

I mean, early game isn't only levels 1-3. She can buy some AD items early game and by that time she'll have a full 1 for 1 AD ratio whereas before it would be 0.7. So she buys a caulfield's warhammer or a phage and on top of her auto attacks her Q also has +25 or +15 damage per hit(instead of 17 or 10)and she heals more as well. It can be pretty big, even if it's not specifically at levels 1-3 or so.

Nomad Sol3 votes

Riot's corporate culture doesn't allow for their head devs to admit fault because they never make mistakes now nod in agreement like a sheep.

THE RlVER KlNG2 votes

Agree

Blåbæret2 votes

Yep, nerf one of the few viable melee carries left. Let ADCs have total dominance.

Blakiepug1 votes

Lmao, comparing Fiora's early game to Azir's and saying Fiora is in a worse state.

abbbez1 votes

I think simply either removing the attack speed slow on w OR removing the heal on vital hits would make balanced. If the healing nerf would be to much they could replace it with a shield equal to the current heal. That would stop her from gaining free health during poke

woodvsmurph1 votes

I would sooner they balance her scaling to be more reasonable. She doesn't need to be able to build 2 pure defensive/tank items and STILL get over 50% hp true damage on her ult. If everyone's favorite %hp damage mage Mordekaiser builds like that, his %hp damage on ult is around 32%. And HIS damage is MAGIC damage not TRUE damage. She should have her ult damage cut in half - base and scaling or else converted to AD damage instead of true damage. In addition, drop either the healing or the bonus damage on vital procs in outside of her ult or only give both of them after she has access to her ult. Dropping the bonus damage for hitting vitals while keeping the sustain it gives at lvl 1-5 or vice versa; dropping the sustain vitals give lvl 1-5 while keeping the bonus damage would make her properly punishable while not making her completely worthless.

Plenty of people I have run into argue she should destroy enemies early game if she plays right since she's a "duelist". But that's about as logical as saying Kog'maw or vayne should completely dominate lane for any one screw up his opponents make; it doesn't happen, if it did happen Riot would nerf kog and vayne, and every adc other than kog and vayne mains would be up in arms about nerfing those 2. But since it is toplane, since she's "fun" to watch in lcs because of the "skill" involved fiora gets to remain stupidly overtuned early to avoid having to actually REALLY WORK early game or be adequately punishable in pure duels even early on.

Zerenza1 votes

Well those buffs were kind of needed, previously that year they gutted her because of her tank build, which proved to work perfectly, it made her pretty shit as she was sitting at 45% winrate at the time after the nerfs until 6.14 where her winrate finally went back up to 49%, fast forward to 2017 and her winrate was at 49%-50% until about a month and a half ago where they buffed Fervor, Death's Dance and gave GA Attack Damage she then started dominating the meta. Those buffs had nothing to do with her strength right now because she was balanced before the changes to Death's Dance, Fervor and GA.

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