Increase her passive range scaling by 1-2 per level and her attack speed per level to 2% - 2.5%, you're welcome.
Stop trying to shove more power into her Explosive Charge. The problem is Tristana can't hit Explosive Charge consistently enough or fast enough to make it worth while.
WukongMain1 votesHow to fix Tristana = Delete her.
disregardable2 votesAnd replace her with her old kit.
ModAcademy Kayn3 votesShe literally has the same kit save for her Explosive Charge, which I prefer more than the old one.
disregardable3 votesThey also nerfed her passive so her level 18 range is less than Jinx's level 8 Q, more than halved her attack speed, lowered her armor, lowered her health, nerfed her W's damage, and lowered the scaling on her ult.
But it's like totally the same, right?
JustMyBassCannon3 votesShe lost 34 range, to put it in perspective.
More than halved her attack speed growth stat, which actually means she went from 0.656 +68% to 0.656 +25.5%. This means her attack speed scales from 0.656-0.823 instead of 0.656-1.102, which is approximately a 25%, or 1/4 nerf to her attack speed at level 18. And that nerf did not affect how bonus AS scales with her kit.
Lowered her defensive stats because she still has the safest escape with her W and R.
Nerfed her W's damage, but made it possible to deal the same damage if the target has Explosive Charge at full stacks. In other words, it's focused on utility--as it should be--unless you specifically need it for offense.
Lowered the scaling on her ult, because AP Tristana was such a healthy playstyle, right?
Nilok1 votesShe actually lost 36 range, from 705 to 669, not 34. This places Tristana closer into a fight and since she has to focus the target her Explosive Charge is on, she cannot easily switch targets when they move out of range and has to choose to deal less damage and not be able to get her Rapid Fire back sooner, or get drawn closer into the fight where she can more easily get picked off. She was able to reach Caitlyn's range at level 13 instead of level 16 and be able to surpass Jinx's range at level 18 unlike now. Don't underestimate a range change, a small change can have a big effect which is what I believe is what is going on. Any Tristana player can tell you right now, they have to get uncomfortably closer to deal damage.
That is a big change late game, you're saying that she lost 0.279 attack speed from her kit. That is huge, that is like losing the attack speed from Blade of the Ruined King or Statikk Shiv, by 18, she is basically an item down for attack speed. A large amount of an ADC's damage comes from their attack speed and now that she HAS to hit her Explosive Charge 4 times, she is almost completely reliant on her Rapid Fire to have good attack speed to do so. Jinx is the only ADC with an attack speed close to this, and she has a passive stacking attack speed buff to compensate. Tristana was redesigned, however, to have "Higher Highs and Lower Lows". This means that once her Rapid Fire is on CD, she is dead in the water since she is so reliant of Rapid Fire to fight normally instead of as an extra bonus. By improving her AS scaling, she no longer has to rely on Rapid Fire mid to late game.
Wish listing~ Currently not complaint of the changed W, but a mana refresh when you land on a target with Explosive Charge would help her limited mana pool a lot.
TLDR The range hurts more than people expect Tristana lost a Statikk Shiv/Blade of the Ruined King worth of attack speed.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesShe actually lost 36 range, from 705 to 669, not 34.
Actually, that's incorrect. Pre-rework, her passive only increased her range after level 1. 550 + (9 * 17) = 703 range. Post-rework, they lowered her base range so that her passive affected level 1. 543 + (7 * 18) = 669 range.
703 - 669 = 34 range.
I know my mechanics.
This places Tristana closer into a fight and since she has to focus the target her Explosive Charge is on, she cannot easily switch targets and has to choose to deal less damage, or get drawn closer into the fight where she can more easily get picked off. She was able to reach Caitlyn's range at level 13 instead of level 16 and be able to surpass Jinx's range at level 18 unlike now. Don't underestimate a range change, a small change can have a big effect which is what I believe is what is going on. Any Tristana player can tell you right now, they have to get uncomfortably closer to deal damage.
Early game, you're not going to notice this range difference at all. 2 points per level, 10 points per 5 levels.
34 range is a very small difference. It is a difference, but...I've played Tristana, both pre- and post-rework, and the range difference doesn't make a difference, considering Draw A Bead used to not affect her spell ranges.
That is a big change late game, you're saying that she lost 0.279 attack speed from her kit. That is huge, that is like losing the attack speed from Blade of the Ruined King or Statikk Shiv, by 18, she is basically an item down for attack speed.
I'm pointing out that it's a lot less than what they were saying. Yes, she's basically down one AS item. That's not a negligible nerf, but it's not an unreasonable one either.
A large amount of an ADC's damage comes from their attack speed and now that she HAS to hit her Explosive Charge 4 times, she is almost completely reliant on her Rapid Fire to have good attack speed to do so. Jinx is the only ADC with an attack speed close to this, and she has a passive stacking attack speed buff to compensate. Tristana was redesigned, however, to have "Higher Highs and Lower Lows". This means that once her Rapid Fire is on CD, she is dead in the water since she is so reliant of Rapid Fire to fight normally instead of as an extra bonus. By improving her AS scaling, she no longer has to rely on Rapid Fire mid to late game.
Yeah, the rework was basically targeting the fact that Statikk Shiv removed her weak mid-game. Now that Tristana basically didn't have a low point at any point in the game, they had to make her strengths more concise and her weaknesses more apparent.
They succeeded.
Wish listing~ Currently not complaint of the changed W, but a mana refresh when you land on a target with Explosive Charge would help her limited mana pool a lot.
They put too many mana refreshes and 0-cost spells on Marksmen as it is. It's not a good standard to set.
Nilok1 votesActually, that's incorrect. Pre-rework, her passive only increased her range after level 1. 550 + (9 * 17) = 703 range. Post-rework, they lowered her base range so that her passive affected level 1. 543 + (7 * 18) = 669 range.
703 - 669 = 34 range.
I know my mechanics.
I stand corrected, that change was undocumented.
Early game, you're not going to notice this range difference at all. 2 points per level, 10 points per 5 levels.
34 range is a very small difference. It is a difference, but...I've played Tristana, both pre- and post-rework, and the range difference doesn't make a difference, considering Draw A Bead used to not affect her spell ranges.
I'm pointing out that it's a lot less than what they were saying. Yes, she's basically down one AS item. That's not a negligible nerf, but it's not an unreasonable one either.
I've found you need to get within most champion's active threat range to deal any good damage as they can kite you back. Furthermore, the reduction of attack range sits very wrong seeing how Jinx can get that at level 8 and still be able to juggle her attack speed passive with it, while you have to wait until 18 to have second best.
Yeah, the rework was basically targeting the fact that Statikk Shiv removed her weak mid-game.
The problem about saying that, is no one can afford a Statikk Shiv on her. She needs Phantom Dancer to have even reasonable attack speed. By removing that, she basically needs to skip her defensive item to get back to where she was with attack speed, which hurts her damage greatly.
Now that Tristana basically didn't have a low point at any point in the game, they had to make her strengths more concise and her weaknesses more apparent.
They succeeded.
What strengths? The fact she had a passive that let her AA grow into the longest in the game and could get crazy attack speed? They weakened her main strengths and gave her a new Zilean style bomb gimmick while removing Grievous Wounds from her kit which helped curb healing/life steal/regen champions. The expressed purpose of the rework was to give her higher highs and lower lows, so far we have only found the lows.
So far she can have a good early game when she is with a good support, and her mid game is okay, but even that falls of as the loss of the attack speed sets in.
They put too many mana refreshes and 0-cost spells on Marksmen as it is. It's not a good standard to set.
Executes with resets are being looked at, like Darius being able to completely refund his ult. If they really want Rocket Jump to be used offensively in her current kit instead of a way to escape after a kill like her old kit intended, it needs a way to keep going and Tristana's mana pool can't do that.
disregardable3 votesThe whole concept of Tristana is that, like Twitch, she scales into a monster if she makes it that far. Now Jinx has better stats IN THE MID GAME than Tristana has in end game. Don't you see a problem with that? Now, her early game is excessively weak for. no. reason.
Sure, she has that nifty E gimmick that takes out towers, but that is all she has. There's no reason to bring her. There are now ADCs that are safer, have better long range harass, are more mobile, and do significantly better in trades. Now, that is not the case. I think she works fine in the top lane as a pseudo Tryndamere, just splitting for days, but they completely wrecked her as a marksman.
JustMyBassCannon1 votes[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=otN8VygM,comment-id=000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-03-28T20:34:36.548+0000)
The whole concept of Tristana is that, like Twitch, she scales into a monster if she makes it that far. Now Jinx has better stats IN THE MID GAME than Tristana has in end game. Don't you see a problem with that? Now, her early game is excessively weak for. no. reason.
...her range.
Not "her stats," but "her range." Get it straight.
She has very slightly lower range compared to Jinx. She also does have lower innate AD--1 point lower base AD. And she has higher Base and Per-level AS. Jinx is 0.625-0.731, Tristana is 0.656-0.823. Comparing their steroids, Jinx gets (with only 500 range) 1.544 at level 18, while Tristana gets (with 669 range) 1.545 at level 18.
Huh, her core offensive stats look to be almost the exact same compared to Jinx when she has her AS steroid. Meanwhile, when she turns off her AS steroid to have longer range than Tristana, she has LESS THAN HALF her attack speed. I'd call that a very fair trade.
Sure, she has that nifty E gimmick that takes out towers, but that is all she has. There's no reason to bring her. There are now ADCs that are safer, have better long range harass, are more mobile, and do significantly better in trades. Now, that is not the case. I think she works fine in the top lane as a pseudo Tryndamere, just splitting for days, but they completely wrecked her as a marksman.
And, thus, Tristana falls back into the background, from spotlight-tier to underground badass. Again.
disregardable1 votesComparing their steroids
You know, the one that only lasts 5 seconds on Tristana but is pretty much permanent on Jinx. So if Jinx just walks forward out of range for a few seconds...
Meanwhile, when she turns off her AS steroid to have longer range than Tristana, she has LESS THAN HALF her attack speed
Except in that situation Tristana can't reach her, so Trist will lose half her health to AOE crits with 0 counterplay. ...
My point stands, there's no reason to bring her.
JustMyBassCannon1 votes[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=otN8VygM,comment-id=00000000000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2015-03-28T20:54:30.729+0000)
You know, the one that only lasts 5 seconds on Tristana but is pretty much permanent on Jinx. So if Jinx just walks forward out of range for a few seconds...
"Pretty much permanent" except for the fact that you could walk out of Jinx's range for 5 seconds and it, too, would be back to +0%. Especially if she was forced to swap to her rockets.
Yes, there is the difference that Tristana's is on a cooldown instead of a passive, but that wasn't the point you were trying and failing to make.
Except in that situation Tristana can't reach her, so Trist will lose half her health to AOE crits with 0 counterplay. ...
"Can't reach her"
Are you high? She has 31 lower range compared to Jinx. 31 points. That's not even enough distance for a full step animation at base movement speed. It takes less than 0.1 seconds to walk that distance. The only way that Jinx can keep her at arm's length with that is if she snares Tristana with her E. So, if Tristana fucks up, yeah.
My point stands, there's no reason to bring her.
Keep believing that Jinx is superior to Tristana because she has basically the same offensive steroids, and 31 more attack range.
Neither one is objectively better than the other. It takes a new level of idiocy to believe that.
disregardable2 votesLol okay. Keep pretending the differences aren't impactful. They aren't even close to equal. It takes a new level of idiocy to believe that.
JustMyBassCannon1 votes"Ooh, look at me, borrowing an insult because I'm incapable of creativity."
I just named the only way that these differences could make an actual impact in a fight. If I didn't believe they had an impact, I'd be as full of shit as you are.
disregardable1 votesDo you even main ADC?
JustMyBassCannon1 votesNope, and it doesn't matter. I could still beat a Jinx with Tristana.
Jinx could also beat me as Tristana.
Because it's what's known as a player-skill matchup rather than a counter-play matchup. This means that the better player will win.
disregardable1 votesThere we have it. You're just like those circlejerkers whining about Kalista. You have no idea whether Trist is actually balanced or not as a marksman.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesExcept you're wrong about me, considering I don't whine about Kalista. I don't defend her design--mostly because Rend has a few flaws--but I have absolutely no issue with Kalista as a champion.
Nilok1 votesAs well as better Attack Damage, Armor, and Armor Growth.
If you think Jinx can't have her attack speed boost with Fishbones, you are mistaken. A good Jinx player can maintain 2 stacks while switching back and forth. This gives her a .9341 to 1.13725 attack speed.
The Ideal is for an ADC to hold ~1.1 attack speed without items, something that Tristana now lacks without Rapid Fire which has a long cooldown.
I could care less about "spotlight-tier" I just want a champion to be fun and playable and not feel like I'm causing my team to lose just by picking it.
Edit: Honestly I think Riot is balancing too much for "spotlight-tier" and trying to make champions with flashier plays.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesAs well as better Attack Damage, Armor, and Armor Growth.
Her AD is 1 point higher. One point. Seriously. If you're going to list that as an advantage, I don't even know why I'm taking this debate seriously.
Her Armor is 0.9-9.4 points higher than Tristana. That's a small, but not negligible difference. Tristana also has 25 more HP. Taken into Effective HP, Jinx has 3487.5 and Tristana has 3351.
Oh, look, two different Marksmen with different kits have different base stats. Fancy that, it's like Riot doesn't balance the game like Chess.
If you think Jinx can't have her attack speed boost with Fishbones, you are mistaken. A good Jinx player can maintain 2 stacks while switching back and forth. This gives her a .9341 to 1.13725 attack speed.
Jinx can keep it going with Fishbones, but the AS bonus cannot affect Fishbones. If she attacks with the rockets, it keeps the full attack delay during the switch.
The Ideal is for an ADC to hold ~1.1 attack speed without items, something that Tristana now lacks without Rapid Fire which has a long cooldown.
Fun fact: the only Marksmen who naturally maintain 1.1 AS without steroids are Ashe and Vayne. Kog'maw has a passive steroid on his Q that breaks it. Jinx only gets that during Gatling Gun. Ezreal can keep 1.235 if he's constantly keeping his passive up, and then Twitch and Caitlyn go over 1.0 AS, not quite 1.1 AS.
Everyone else is barely under 1.0 AS without items or steroids, and the only ones with totally passive AS steroids are Jinx and Kog'maw.
I could care less about "spotlight-tier" I just want a champion to be fun and playable and not feel like I'm causing my team to lose just by picking it.
Edit: Honestly I think Riot is balancing too much for "spotlight-tier" and trying to make champions with flashier plays.
If you feel like you're the cause of your team's loss, the vast majority of the time, it's not the champion's fault.
Nilok1 votesJinx can keep it going with Fishbones, but the AS bonus cannot affect Fishbones. If she attacks with the rockets, it keeps the full attack delay during the switch.
That isn't even remotely true, the first attack from Fishbones after switching will have her buffed attack speed, that why you switch back and forth rapidly so you both have the range/AD steroid/AoE and keep the attack speed going switching between long and close range targets.
If you feel like you're the cause of your team's loss, the vast majority of the time, it's not the champion's fault.
If you have a really good early game, have a lot of farm, several kills, and several towers down, you should not be a detriment to your team and being unable to do significant damage. That doesn't stop Tristana from faltering and failing.
I would encourage you to play several games as Tristana in normals or ranked to test statement.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesThat isn't even remotely true, the first attack from Fishbones after switching will have her buffed attack speed, that why you switch back and forth rapidly so you both have the range/AD steroid/AoE and keep the attack speed going switching between long and close range targets.
The first attack from Fishbones doesn't have a delay, because it's going off of Pow-Pow's delay. After that shot, it has to wait for the AS delay from Fishbones.
This is what I just stated. The toggle is not an attack reset.
If you have a really good early game, have a lot of farm, several kills, and several towers down, you should not be a detriment to your team and being unable to do significant damage. That doesn't stop Tristana from faltering and failing.
I would encourage you to play several games as Tristana in normals or ranked to test statement.
You know, if I get a chance to take the Marksman role and I'm not against a cheese lane, I'll tell you how that goes for me.
Axrios1 votesdey shud make her back 2 her old rework and revert the s4 nerfs ;3
SpongebobIsLife1 votesthen she'd be op..and everyone would ban her every game again..lol
Axrios1 votes[{quoted}](name=Its Spongebob,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=otN8VygM,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-03-28T19:28:38.534+0000)
then she'd be op..and everyone would ban her every game again..lol
das the point she was only adc i culd do shit-bad on until she got nerfed now i play adc only shit
Nilok1 votesNoticed I gave a small range in my recommendation, I don't want Trist "LOL OP" powerful, but right now she is the second worst ADC who does THE worst damage, and that is only if you count Urgot as an ADC.
If you have a better recommendation so she isn't trash tier, please, share it with us.
SpongebobIsLife1 voteswell seeing as how her range is only 34 units away from her original range, I don't think you can do much smaller than that. And your changes pretty much revert most of what riot did to her s4. Maybe a small attack speed buff, but her range should stay as is.
Nilok1 votesSmall range not in Tristanas actual range, but an estimate on how much needs to be changed, hence the 1-2 on passive and 2% - 2.5% on attack speed growth. Maybe not all the way back to how it was, but something more than current which is undertuned.
Abyssphere1 votesI just wish the direction they were taking with the buffs wasn't just "conditional cooldown reduction here, and here, and here". I feel like once the next patch comes out, it'll be basically impossible to tell when your spells are going to come off cooldown because their cooldowns are changing every half a second.
youngjake931 votesI actually like the way Riot is buffing her by lowering the CD of Q and E by auto attacking champions. It helps those abilities reset quicker to keep up with her W reset and actually allow her to be the Katarina of ADCs which is pretty unique. Before she really competed with Jinx, but she is getting more unique.