They are not viable by far, and with Kalist coming soon, they will be even more non-viable. Jinx is immobile, but she has AoE AA and range. Mf aoe damage is pretty subpar with jinx. Lucian is way more mobile than all of them, and out damage all of them too. Tristana's out range and out damage all of them too, while having a reset jump.
Can we just buff this champions riot? Please.
SmokingPuffin19 votes
is a classic example of how mobility is undervalued in champion power budgets in this game. He has a power curve similar to 
, but Corki gets a dash while Varus gets his CC ult. Turns out, dashes are better than CC ults on ADCs. If Varus got Corki W instead of Varus R, he'd be quite a strong champion.
If we're going to make immobile ADCs a thing in serious games, we need to bump up the amount of power you get in exchange for being immobile. It can work. 
and 
both pull it off. Immobile ADCs need to have more reward in exchange for their greater risk, because a dead ADC deals no DPS.
Incidentally, has been sucky for at least a year now with zero changes, despite having a fundamentally healthy kit and lots of good places to tune. It's stuff like this that gives Riot balance a bad name.
17inchcorkscrew21 votes
*Imagines Varus jumping up, flying, pooping fire. *
Rikari2 votes "The guilty will know Valkyrie"
Rikari2 votesIMO Varus is playable,but like you said mobility counts. Varus is also bad at kiting as his Q drops his movement speed and he can't duel normal ADC's,even if hes fed as he has to charge his Q. He does high damage but takes too long. His ult is powerful,goes with his kit,but his kit is bad.
RiotPhreak10 votesJust wanting to chime in as a player:
I think it's very easy to say, "Look at these weaknesses. This champion is horrible." IMO every champion should have easily-identified weaknesses. Otherwise, why wouldn't you pick the champion? It'd be a no-brainer. For example, I can take any of the top played champions from the recent World Championship and make a case for them being terrible.
Zilean: This is a mid-lane mage with no lategame. Only has one damage skill. And if we're in "league of late-game AD Carries" why would I want to pick this champion? If I revive an ADC with Chronoshift, he just dies right again anyway. IDK what the point of this champion is. I'd much rather play something like Jayce who does more damage, scales harder, gives an AoE speed boost instead of single target, and actually has self-peel, unlike Zilean.
Alistar top: Wow, a "tank" champion whose only tank stats come from my ultimate? What if our opponents try to fight us more than every 2 minutes? This champion's useless. I have to go into melee range to CC, but then I just die right after. And I have to build damage as a top laner. How else can I threaten the back line? Such a useless champion design. I'd rather just be Maokai who has a really short ultimate cooldown, more damaging abilities, and way better healing during a fight and in lane.
Lee Sin: Wow, absolutely no late game. With how much champions like Thresh and Janna are being played, there's just no way I can land Q-Q-Ward-W-R without my opponent Flashing, simply dashing away (Lucian, Tristana, etc.), or the support just peeling me off. Add the fact that I have to go Lizard Elder, yet still don't actually deal that much damage, means I can't be a tank either. How is this champion supposed to team fight?
And the list goes on. Janna has a weak laning phase and no sustain. Twitch has no escapes. Tristana has no mid-game. Lucian's ultimate is easily blocked by tanks.
What it comes down to is that every champion has STRENGTHS, too. There were two different periods in League competitive history where Miss Fortune was a top 3 AD Carry. One was right after her release where here base stats and laning power were so strong, you just wanted to crush lane. She had all the same weaknesses: No self-peel, no in-combat mobility... And yet she had this other strength of lane dominance that made her not only worth playing, but the premiere pick. The second was in early Season Three I believe when Miss Fortune+Amumu was the comp to beat. Area of Effect team fighting. That's another strength of hers. And we saw at the World Championship people went back to champions like Rumble. We know teamfighting is still really important. But no one decided to try MF/Amumu for whatever reason, so she's "weak."
Also keep in mind that every champion has synergies and anti-synergies. We live in one of two worlds:
I think it's pretty likely we live in World #2. This means that Miss Fortune's (for example) power is in fact tied to the types of teammates and enemies she goes up against. There have been multiple times in the past where her environment made her sought-after (early laning was important, people really wanted team fight power). And it's really easy to bring that back: Just choose to play for team fights, dragons, etc. And with League of Legends being a team game, it's not too hard to say, "Hey, let's play Miss Fortune+Amumu." That's a world where she thrives.
The final thought I want to share in on the metagame. By definition the metagame is what everyone ELSE is playing. You don't have to pick Lee Sin, Lucian, and Kha'Zix just because everyone else is. The weird thing is, while competitive players pick their own small champion pools and play within their defined metagame, there are twice as many champions out there that are actually MORE successful in the game that WE are all playing. And other players don't have to define what we play.
RiotPhreak8 votesHit the character limit, wanted to follow up.
Even within the current metagame (omg how could you be immobile? Kha'Zix will kill you!) Ashe is one of the top 3 most successful AD Carries right now in high MMR. No, she doesn't deal as much damage as Tristana. No she's not as safe as Tristana. But she stuns someone from 1500 range away. You can literally never be out of position against her or you give up a free kill and a turret. Tristana can't do that. And again, I'm talking about Diamond-level players here. Ashe excels (more than Lucian, more than Tristana, more than Twitch, more than Kog'Maw) with and against elite players.
darkdill2 votesSo... Ashe should never be picked up by non-Diamond players?
RiotPhreak6 votesNot what I'm saying at all. I'm just pointing to a specific stat that exemplifies how powerful she is. I feel like it's easy to strawman and be like "Well yeah newbs will get caught, but that won't fly in top tier." However, I'm pointing out that even in the top 1% or something, a CC-oriented AD Carry with no escapes is still exceptionally powerful. Ashe is very strong in all skill tiers last I checked.
Ale non è male4 votesHit the character limit, wanted to follow up.
Even within the current metagame (omg how could you be immobile? Kha'Zix will kill you!) Ashe is one of the top 3 most successful AD Carries right now in high MMR.
Sorry Phreak, but that's just not true. Look at win rate without looking at pick rate is misleading. Ashe has a very very low pick rate. This mean she is only played by players that have superior knowledge and mechanic of the champ even for their tier and/or that she is picked only when the enemy team has absolute nothing counter her, which end up being a very rare situation. The weaknesses in her kit are evident and have been pointed out in this thread. More champs that are objectively stronger than her will have a lower kit because they are picked more and because most of the player will stay at about their level and thus having a 50% win rate on average, these champs will end up having a lower win rate than the actual one of Ashe that will tend to be around 50%, and this will not tell anything on the strength of their respective kits
5G8Nri0B543 votesRegarding Tristana's supposedly weak game. I'm not entirely sure. I mean, her late game is theoretically the weakest phase of her game, that phase where her nukes becomes less powerful, yet her Q and overall build isn't high enough level yet to become that godlike hyper-carry.
HOWEVER...unless I'm up against a Lucian, I really don't FEEL all that weak in midgame. Weaker than early and late game certainly, but not "that's her weakness!" weak.
One was right after her release where here base stats and laning power were so strong, you just wanted to crush lane. She had all the same weaknesses: No self-peel, no in-combat mobility... And yet she had this other strength of lane dominance that made her not only worth playing, but the premiere pick.
I wasn't around upon her release. But what was the environment like upon her release? Were there tons of gap-closers and pokes going all around?
When I entered LoL, it was right after Shyvanna's release.
PS - and even if you argue that Ashe is still strong in high levels of play, I still believe that Passive of hers is uninspired. Might be neat on an assassin though.
pE4CbxDPQO9 votesDONT YOU DARE TOUCH MY RED HAIRED TWO PISTOLED WOMAN. If you really want to though, I would love an AD ration on (R) Bullet Time
Ad Astra per Asp9 votesTechnically since it applies the W passive which is AD ratio it already has an AD ratio.
RiotRiot ShadowStorm12 votesAlso, because of the W passive stacks, it makes your subsequent auto-attacks (and Qs!) hit harder too. Her ult is a great way to soften teams up at the start of a fight.
Arch Mage Magnus5 votesAlso, because of the W passive stacks, it makes your subsequent auto-attacks (and Qs!) hit harder too. Her ult is a great way to soften teams up at the start of a fight.
Right. Because good ADC's let you land auto after auto on them, then stand still to land a Q. As opposed to Lucien, who can Q you, then E to you and get a double auto attack....which... you now have to disengage because you took half health, and if he wanted too he could probably ult you to death if you stayed to trade.
DropFill3 votesAlso, because of the W passive stacks, it makes your subsequent auto-attacks (and Qs!) hit harder too. Her ult is a great way to soften teams up at the start of a fight.
The problem is that if you have to stack your W first to ult, you will most likely get a strong damage on only one target. Her ult is pretty bad right now. The damage it does is far from good. The MAXIMUM amount of damage it does is , at rank 3, 1000 ( 160% ) plus 48% of your AD. If MF has like 400 of AD ( pretty rare but ok ), she will do to someone in melee range something like 1200 of physical damage. This is trash, seriously. And at rank 3, at lowers rank it is even worse.
RiotRiot ShadowStorm10 votesOh, I was actually talking about the reverse - use your ult to max out Impure Shots stacks, so that your auto attacks hit harder when you follow up.
But anyways, I'm not on the balance team, so I can't speak to what their thinking is on these champs. I just play a lot of MF (and some Varus/Ashe as well), so thought I'd jump in. Here's how I think about it:
Looking at some other numbers, that 1200 number seems about in line with things like Graves, Draven, Caitlyn, Lucian, and Jinx. It's just that each champ has different ways to maximize the damage output of their ult.
Lucian, for instance, can do a max of 2145 (+825% bonus AD) (+330% AP). So at the 400 AD example, that's about 5500 damage. But he only damages one target at a time.
Miss Fortune can do that 1200 damage to all 5 enemies (and in one fewer second), so her theoretical max actually goes up to 6000 damage in your example - more than Lucian's!
What varies is the set up cost of getting full effectiveness. Lucian's is likely going to do more damage in a 1-on-1, but Miss Fortune's hits harder on a team that gets Amumu ulted*. I think that's at the core of why these champs might feel weak. There's more work involved from the team to get full value out of a Varus/MF/Ashe pick. This will probably be true for Kalista too.
The question in my mind is this: are the payoffs for that work are worth the investment? I tend to think so, and I'll play these champs when presented with a comp I think they work in. And when I don't get a comp I like for them, then I turn to a more self-sufficient ADC like Lucian or Ezreal.
*Or ulted by Jarvan, Malphite, Zyra, Sona, Leona, Braum, Sejuani.... really, lots of ways to set up a solid MF ult!
TerraRising3 votesI can't talk about MF as someone who "mains" her, but I can talk about her confusing kit:
• "Double Up" deals physical damage that scales off AP • "Impure Shots" gives MF faster attacks that add a percentage of bonus AD as magic damage. • "Make It Rain," the only straightforward item on her kit, deals magic damage that scales of AP • "Bullet Time" adds potential stacks to Impure shots (which is magic damage that scales of AD) and deals physical damage that scales off AP.
Now, how in the hell am I supposed to build MF with a kit like that? Hybrid builds are something Riot pretty much got rid of and I've not found any good alternatives.
5G8Nri0B542 votesSince you play MF, may I ask for advice too?
Max Q or W first? Her Q looks like something that mostly exists for the sake of early game laning phase, as it's rather lackluster late game unless the enemy champions aligns and you have that one dying enemy directly behind another enemy champion. Asides from that, her Q is a DPS-loss when she can be auto-ing and critting instead.
On the other hand, her W, asides from indirectly powering up her Q's, is also a significant chunk of her R's damage too since it's magic damage is the sole form of AD scaling on her R (weird design...). Meaning a lower level W also translates into a weaker R. On the other hand, as a "scaling ability", her W clearly has late game in mind and is more effective only as the game goes on and you build more AD.
Regarding personal problems with MF.
She...
Is 550 range...
Is immobile...
Does not have any effective self-peel.
As far as personal experience goes, E does jack against Maokai, Talon, Zed, or literally anyone with mobility. Reduce it's radius and slow, but remove it's cast time perhaps? Or make her E apply an additional effect of preventing the use of gap-closers that aren't blink-types?
In my personal opinion after playing MF on and off again. She always feels a little too situational. And in situations she can thrive, I find that playing someone with more mobility or more range just gives me a better advantage than whatever MF could give me anyways.
RiotRiot ShadowStorm5 votesI always max Q over W. Since the changes in 4.5 (I think?), maxing W only affects mana cost and the attack speed it grants. The ramping magic damage passive is actually affected by her Ult's level. Every point you put into Bullet Time gives you one more max stack of W, so you get the benefits to ult power you described regardless of W's level (as long as you have at least 1 point, of course).
That said, I have seen some guides suggest W over Q. The thinking is that increased attack speed lets you capitalize on the stacking passive better, and follow up on ults better. I haven't mathed out how it compares to Q max though, so can't say for sure.
I play her more as more of a brawly/bursty character, rather than a traditional sustained DPS, so Q max also fits my playstyle better. I like to go for some CDR (early Brutalizer, sometimes even Essence Reaver), and often pick up a Trinity Force, so the auto-Q-auto pattern is pretty key. It gets down to a 3 second cooldown at max rank, before CDR!
Also, I don't think Q is much of a DPS loss, except maybe at really high attack speeds or crit values. Max rank Q does 80 (+85% AD), so you'd need over 500 AD for auto+Q to do less to a target than 2 autos (and you can cancel the winddown of the auto with the Q, so it's pretty much an instant double-shot). Though, like above, I haven't actually mathed this out to compare... maybe I'll do that tonight, now that it's on my mind.
Earl Eulrich3 votesThe question in my mind is this: are the payoffs for that work are worth the investment? I tend to think so, and I'll play these champs when presented with a comp I think they work in. And when I don't get a comp I like for them, then I turn to a more self-sufficient ADC like Lucian or Ezreal.
I think this is really the main problem here...most people just don´t think about team-compositions, but instead expect their champ to work in all circumstances. Part of the problem might be that there are some Champs that work just like that, so more "niche" champs aren´t just as appealing for many people. It´s a matter of Champ a working at 90% in 100% of circumstances, while champ be is at 70% 80% of the time and at 130% 20% of the time...it just doesn´t add up if you´re feeling weak 4/5 of your games just to get these awesome moments every once in a while every 5th game.
Samflash31 votesYou've gotta help me out when it comes to picking Ashe. Because I can't find a reason to enjoy Ashe when there is an assassin or long range initiator.
I have to choose a lot of times between helping my team and losing my main defense or keeping it and watching my team get slaughtered in teamfights. Plus her ult is so easy to miss at long range due to its speed as opposed to say, Jinx. Ez's is really low and I can get more uses since it doesn't just end once it hits.
I find Ashe to be annoying early. If i auto at full stack but then cancel my animation by say moving or hitting 'S' before the attack hits, my stack is completely gone. Considering how early level ashe's attack speed is low, it happens.
P.S: That's why I make fun of Ashe in some Lissandra threads.
RiotRiot ShadowStorm4 votesStory time!
I was talking about Ashe with CertainlyT a while back (during Kalista's development). At one point, he said something to the effect of "if we 'nerfed' Ashe by making her ult range only 2000 units, her win rate would go up 5%."
That might be slight hyperbole, but the point of "just use your ult at close range for a guaranteed stun, and go win the fight" really stuck with me. I don't always follow this advice, but hey.
But anyways, Ashe is a pretty situational pick for me. I usually look for three things:
Usually this means I'm taking her later in the pick order. These are hard questions to answer early, and if I'm committing to an ADC blind I'll usually go for Lucian or Ezreal. Or MF, but that's due to comfort mostly. =)
I picked Ashe twice recently in ranked play (for context, I ended in Gold 3 on that account). Not sure if you'll find this interesting or useful, but here were the champ selects at the time, and my thought processes going into those picks:
Game 1 (Blue team; Tristana banned) Blue team picks:
Purple team picks:
I thought about grabbing MF or Lucian here, but ultimately didn't (see below). To the questions above:
We lost this game. I ended with a score of 15/8/9 (24/34 kill participation), and was the clear damage threat. Unfortunately, I was counting on either Akali or Ryze (or both) to really get rolling too, which didn't happen. Also, their Lux went 19/4/13, so that was a big problem.
I'm not convinced Ashe was the right call here, but they rolled hard enough it probably wouldn't have mattered who I picked. Maybe I could've done more with Lucian, and maybe Ezreal would've been smarter at the time I picked, but not sure.
Game 2 (Purple team; Lucian + Tristana banned) Blue team picks:
Purple team picks:
I was actually going to go Miss Fortune here, since we had Amumu and Lucian/Tristana were banned, but then they took her. So to those questions above:
We won this one, thanks in large part to Zed (14/5/4) and Syndra (9/2/9). I had more assists than kills, which is about what I expected.
Samflash31 votesCertaintyT does have a point about the Ashe ult.
I even tried max cd ashe (although I built Muramana which doesn't really help her due to her low mana pool) and I had my ult every 48 or so seconds. Allowed more fail sniping and to use my ult twice in a fight.
The only thing I can say is that you kinda had an idea of what players the enemy were picking. If you were playing blind, how would you adapt to say a Vi + Akali/Yasuo team?
RiotRiot ShadowStorm3 votesThat's a good point - I largely play ranked solo queue, and pick/ban is one of my favorite parts of the game. So I don't play much blind pick, outside of team builder, but that's usually just to get comfortable on a specific champ.
Blind pick is hard, because you're giving up your right to know what you're up against when you pick your champ. I think that if you play blind pick, you have to accept that sometimes you're just going to get really terrible matchups. I was trying to practice Vayne the other day, and went against a double assassin bot lane. It did NOT go well for me... but that's just blind pick sometimes.
That said, you DO know what your team is picking. So you can decide during champ select if Ashe fits (or look for a team comp where she does, if you're using Teambuilder). Similar to before, some things I'd look for:
Then, during loading screen I'm asking myself similar questions about the other team. How do they get me? How can my team respond? Am I looking to force plays with my ult, or save myself with it? How are fights going to break out, and where do I want to be?
Part of it is also accepting that you're always at risk of just getting blown up by Flash-Vi ult with Yasuo followup. You can't really stop that, though you can position in a way to discourage it. But ADCs are squishy and vulnerable, and that's part of the fantasy you buy into when you play one, Ashe or otherwise.
Specifics vary depending on the game. In the case you mentioned, I'm probably trying to stay back so I'm not the target of Vi's ult. Ideally a teammate engages and I follow up with an arrow. But either way, once the fight breaks out, Volley does AoE damage and slows, and should buy you time to reposition. If you didn't engage with ult, you have that too in a pinch - ideally to stop Akali/Yasuo from going off.
A lot of success with Ashe specifically comes from being comfortable kiting and positioning, which takes practice. Some of this is pre-fight positioning too; making sure that you are both safe yet threatening when a fight does break out. That stuff will also just make you a better ADC player overall, in my opinion.
Kowe The Ewok2 votesConsider opportunity cost: The damage you loose by channeling your ultimate instead of auto attacking. Graves or Jinx waste less than a splitt second while MFs ulti requires a full channel to deal the damage you listed (note that enemies can also run / Flash out of it more easily)
RiotRiot ShadowStorm8 votesThat's a fair point. I usually look for an opportunity to safely unload on multiple opponents, so that I'm doing more damage overall. Often that's to soften as the other team engages (make sure you're far enough back!), or as they run away. My default is also to generally hold the ultimate, until a great opportunity presents itself.
One of the things I've tried to pay more attention to lately is the different ways fights unfold, and how I need to react to them. With MF, I'm really looking for the enemy team to be in one area. The most obvious is the wombo-combo lockdown, but other ones include:
One option is unloading on a team that is diving/tanking one of my towers. Another option is to clean up post-fight, as they run away. And there's the ever-enjoyable, Pentakill-granting "hey, thanks for all grouping up in Baron pit!" ultimate.
MF just really likes her enemies to be close to one another, and to move along straight lines. That way, she can line up Double-Ups and Bullet Time. Ulting from the far back line is usually pretty good, because you should have your passive to then get you into the fight and clean up. Ideally, her ult giving W stacks helps compensate for the auto-attacks you give up to channel it.
5G8Nri0B546 votesHey ShadowStorm, there is one very interesting about MF that most people usually "know" but not totally aware of it. I'm not sure if this is funny or sad, but...
Miss Fortune: -zero effective self-peels (I explained why E is not effective a while back) -zero mobility
Bullet Time: -the sole ADC Ultimate that makes the champion highly visible and is channeling
Both of these facts are stuff everybody is well aware of.
In my personal opinion. Bullet Time is awesome.
But my other opinion is, MF is by far the least qualified ADC to be worthy of Bullet Time
I know you have nothing to do with balance and you're not in the balance team and all that. But...do you ever think and laugh about this cruel irony on your red headed gunslinger?
btw, you think she could use a VU? That stuff on her head is not hair. It's clearly just a creepy plastic red hat grafted onto her head.
RiotRiot ShadowStorm6 votesPersonally, I think MF is the MOST qualified to have Bullet Time, just on the virtue of her laugh! =)
But in all seriousness, I do think it's intentional. Because Bullet Time doesn't do reduced damage to multiple targets, the best-case scenario gets pretty nuts. It's kept in check by requiring some degree of set up and/or risk.
One of the things I actually like about it being on MF is that she doesn't have that tactical, in-combat mobility, so you aren't giving that up to use the ult. When playing MF, you want to be thinking a lot about where you are and where the fight is moving, and Bullet Time actually works in that thought space.
What she does have though is global mobility, thanks to Strut. This allows her to get to safe spaces and channel from out of a fight, then run in and clean up. I'll often run to a sidelane, get it to start slow pushing, then come back to the objective we're trying to take/defend. Ult across the fight, and Strut on in. That's map-wide pressure other ADCs can't really bring.
So, I actually haven't really felt that it's too unfair, but it does force you to think and play differently. Of course, now I'm imagining Twitch with Bullet Time (Crossbow Time?) as his ultimate... stealthing into position, applying poison stacks to everybody, then Pentakilling with Expunge.
*shudders and weeps uncontrollably*
As for a VU, I would selfishly love it. I think there are some other champs who need the attention more though. She might be slated for texture rebalancing soon, like we've done with a bunch of champs lately, but I honestly don't know.
Erronius5 votesHonestly, we have people in this thread that have valid points that want to have a mature and serious discussion about the topic of this thread -and here I am reading psycho-babble loaded with personal bias that offers nothing more than "well I like her" to this conversation.
You can like a champion all you want, that isn't the topic of this thread. I'm going to single Miss Fortune out here -if she were ever a truly viable pick, why haven't we seen her in the competitive scene of every League of Legends region on the planet? Why do the pros outright say things like "she's not really viable" when asked about her on their streams?
I like Nautilus, but my favor of him doesn't change the fact that he has not been viable this entire last season -in normal blind-pick, you can do almost any champion in any lane with success, that's not a valid data source to draw conclusions about champion viability.
Can we get a rioter that actually takes this discussion seriously to pop in and give us unbiased feedback please?
RiotRiot ShadowStorm9 votesCan we get a rioter that actually takes this discussion seriously to pop in and give us unbiased feedback please?
I am taking this discussion seriously, and I'm sorry if I'm giving the impression otherwise. I assume you want somebody from the Live Balance team in here? They're pretty busy with preseason stuff - odds are, Miss Fortune is not on their radar right now, so they would have nothing to add.
Still, I pulled some data from lolking for you:
In NA Challenger Solo Queue, from Oct 18 to Nov 10, she was picked 84 times, with 48 wins. That's a 57.14% win rate in Challenger.
In my opinion, that speaks to her being viable (but unpopular) at high levels of play. This was the 24 days before the season ended, after all, and some high-level players turned to her and found success with her.
I've also personally found a lot of success with her, which is why I wanted to jump in and share my experiences. I thought that would be more valuable to the discussion than leaving the thread unanswered.
But most importantly, I want you all to know that your concerns and opinions aren't falling on deaf ears. We do read through the posts here, even if we don't always comment, and I feel that I gained some understanding of concerns and perceptions around these champs from this discussion.
5G8Nri0B543 votesI want you all to know that your concerns and opinions aren't falling on deaf ears. We do read through the posts here, even if we don't always comment, and I feel that I gained some understanding of concerns and perceptions around these champs from this discussion.
Wait...you're actually taking in feedback here? I thought you were just here chatting with us and talking MF strategies!
Ummm...alright then, I'll just compile the only issues I have with these 3 champions. Keep in mind, I mostly have experience with MF, while Ashe and Varus comes from their free weeks and playing against them.
Her Passive is stupid, it puts her more into an Assassin camp rather than an ADC. Not just that, it literally has nothing to do with the rest of her kit. If anything is to be changed, a more suitable Passive may be a great place to start.
His* animations* are all really deceptive. He feels really slow when in fact he isn't that much different from his fellow ADC's. For instance, his walking animation makes him feel like he can't chase or run away.
In terms of balance, I feel his Passive steroid is too unreliable. It's a little too conditional. In lane, it comes into play when you're pushing, okay. But in a team-fight? Unless you prepare an easily killed unit nearby to kill right away, you're fighting without an attack steroid besides that bit of on-hit magic damage until an enemy is already dead.
: I like how she feels, and I always really want to play her, except, I will never ever play her in a game where I have a stake, because imo...
-550 -zero mobility -zero self-peel
** I don't want all 3 of those issues fixed.** HOWEVER...I feel that an ADC shouldn't have all 3 of those issues at the same time as well. So I think something can be done to alleviate atleast one of those weaknesses.
Especially in my SoloQ games, I find I can not trust my allies will do a good enough job protecting my ass in teamfights against 
, 
, or 
. When I ADC, I just find myself going Jinx/Kog/Tristana instead.
RiotRiot ShadowStorm4 votesTo be clear, we're always listening to community feedback. It isn't always acknowledged (there are WAY more players than Rioters!), and it isn't always acted upon, but we are listening.
I'm mostly here as a fellow player, talking about some of my favorite champs. These discussions are really interesting to me, and I'm taking all of the thoughts, suggestions, frustrations, etc. to heart, and keeping them in mind.
While I'm not on the teams that would make any of these changes, I do get to jump in on playtests and give feedback on changes. So having these discussion and knowing why these champs feel lackluster lets me advocate for your feelings internally.
I'm also hoping that by being here, we can get some good discussion that would help the teams that ARE responsible for it. Talking about why you feel the way you do, rather than just saying "buff the damage!", tends to be more helpful, and I think that's something we've done well in this thread. For instance, your points above are all in that vein, which is great.
RiotRiot ShadowStorm6 votesI mentioned this elsewhere in the thread, but part of the fantasy you buy into when you play an ADC is that you are squishy, and you are reliant on your team to protect you so you can lay down powerful sustained DPS.
Some can peel or escape better than others, but without your team, it's unlikely you are going to be able to deal your damage in the fight. If your team won't help you (or can't, or whatever), then you likely aren't going to be effective.
I think part of playing ADC is accepting this, while also doing what you can with your positioning, items, skills, etc. to help your team help you. That said...
I like that you called out Kog'Maw, because he's similarly vulnerable to dives. And I would react similarly - in MF's case, WOMAN MODE IT!!
I think sometimes, people over-emphasize her ult, and forget that Q is effectively an auto-attack reset on a really low cooldown, and she has healing reduction along with the stacking magic damage on W. She fights reasonably well.
Part of this is that I generally go Brutalizer, and I often go Triforce as well if I expect to be dove and need to fight. Brutalizer into Ghostblade, plus the Sheen procs from Triforce, are usually enough to catch some divers off-guard and pick up kills on them with some team help.
For the ult, I'm generally not trying to force it. I usually play with it in my back pocket for when a great opportunity presents itself. The main exception is if I see that a good opportunity is going to unfold (they're all running to Dragon/Baron, Amumu is flanking, or something like that). Then I'll try to position to capitalize with an ult, but those are less frequent.
kayakninja3 votesAshe is the only one of those I have any experience with, but I agree with you on the passive. It's only any use at all to guarantee a crit on her first attack in a fight, which isn't much use at all since I already have 55% chance with IE+PD. One attack at the very start isn't going to help things.
DropFill1 votesDONT YOU DARE TOUCH MY RED HAIRED TWO PISTOLED WOMAN. If you really want to though, I would love an AD ration on (R) Bullet Time
MF E is one of the MOST useless abilities in this game. I think only ezreal W beats that. Her R does close to no damage. Her Q damage also got butchered because of a mana cost buff.
Teslalyte6 votesHer E is a core part of her kit, and part of what makes her good.
If you don't know how to use E properly, you need more practice with MF.
DropFill1 votesHer E is a core part of her kit, and part of what makes her good.
If you don't know how to use E properly, you need more practice with MF.
Her E is core? What you smoking dude? Her W and R are core part of her kit. Her passive is only good to not be that denied early game by coming faster to lane if she went to base , but a single minions stops it.
Teslalyte6 votesI'm going to respectfully disagree here.
I play MF a lot. She has her pros and cons like any other ADC, but I don't think she's bad at all. Her passive allows her to chase, unless her opponent stops to turn around. It doesn't need to be at "full power" for it's value to be utilized. With correct play, and with use of her E, you can utilize her passive for more chase, or even escape. Her passive also allows her to rotate between lanes/objectives faster than any other ADC.
Yes, a single minion stops it, but understanding how minions aggro champs is a core part to being a good playing in LoL. It's very possible to avoid getting touched if you play right. For later in the game, the new Bloodthirster's shield also gives her protection. While it holds, damage you take won't break your passive, which makes it a very strong item to build on her.
Thryale5 votesThe primary reason ashe and varus are not viable, and will continue to not be viable, is the existance of mikael's crucible. As long as this item is in the game, these 2 champs will never be viable top picks.
both ashe and varus are "utility" adc's they sacrifice the extremely high dps that jinx and trist get and the great laning power that graves and luci have in exchange for being adc's that have the power to safely start fights on their own terms. Usually by catching a target out of position with their powerful cc ults. The problem is, because this cc is on such a long cd, all the enemy has to do is us mikael's on their cc'd ally and it's like nothing happened, but now your team is down an ult, thus putting you at the disadvantage.
Riot either needs to A) remove mikael's (suboptimal) or B) up the cd on mikael's to a minimum of 3-5 min thus allowing ashe and var's ults to come off cd before mikael's is up again, giving your team a temporary advantage.
can't really speak much on mf tho, :(
ModKnightsKemplar10 votesI disagree that 
is the problem. If they are holding it for your ult as or , it just means someone else on your team can use their cc. Crucible really isn't that strong. A good Ashe or Varus ult hits multiple people, and Crucible can only save one.
If this is true, it means all cc in the game is devalued because of one item, and I just don't see that being the case. The bigger issue, as I posted elsewhere in the thread, is that utility adcs are undervalued in the current meta. They simply don't bring the big damage that has come to be associated with their position, but when you have a team that understands that, they are still very good.
Thryale3 votes<_< you do realize that riot has stated themselves that the existence of devalues ashe and varus. So, not sure where yer trying to take this.
ModKnightsKemplar11 votesHaha. Well, I reserve my right to disagree with Riot. It might devalue them in laning phase, and sure, they have cc and crucible counters that, so I guess at a certain point, it does. My point was, that devaluation doesn't seem to matter much late game, and if Riot thinks it does and buffs two of my favorite champs, great.
I think that's where I'm going with it. ;)
Thryale6 votesI think the point of the matter is, that unlike a morg dark binding, ashe's arrow is on a 60-ish second cd, while morg's dark binding is on a 12-ish cd. So if morg lands a root and it gets cleansed, she only has to wait 12 secs before she can land another one. But if ashe ults and it get's cleansed, then she has a huge cd to wait before she can ult again.
And let's not forget qss. If there is enough hard cc to force a crucible before the ashe ult, then odds are qss is gonna be bought as well. And heaven forbid they bring cleanse as on top of that.
I'm not saying ashe will never get her arrow off on a key target, but odds are she is gonna be severely limited on when she can use it if she doesn't want it to go to waste.
ModKnightsKemplar3 votesAgain, that's not my experience, but you certainly have a point. In that case, lemme ask this; do you think a reduction in CD for those ults would fix the problem?
DropFill3 votesAgain, that's not my experience, but you certainly have a point. In that case, lemme ask this; do you think a reduction in CD for those ults would fix the problem?
In varus and ashe case, would make them more "viable", but wouldn't fix the problem Varus E and W are pretty bad abilities right now Triggering his W damage is pretty hard mid-late game. Ashe needs a new passive, maybe one that increases her critical damage. I would love to see a really small AD ratio on her Q too. But they both needs some scaling somewhere ( Ashe needs a steroid, Varus needs a better passive too )
Auz the Ripper3 votesIf ashe got more damage, she'd have to lose her perma-slow. Someone with high natural damage and high CC cannot exist in this game Riot murdered skarner because of that and his slow was melee ranged
DropFill1 votesIf ashe got more damage, she'd have to lose her perma-slow. Someone with high natural damage and high CC cannot exist in this game Riot murdered skarner because of that and his slow was melee ranged
Ashe has only two CC's = A stun on ultimate and a slow on her W and AA.Slow is one of the most weak CC by far, and on this mobility meta , having a perma slow is pretty impossible since it is hard to keep AA'ing someone that much
Auz the Ripper5 votesAgain, I refer to skarner He also only had two CCs Both of which were melee THat didn't stop riot Ashe has 4-5 times the range on her slow and infinitively higher range on her ult If she were strong with her permaslow, she would be oppressive