So whoever gets the first dragon now just runs away with the rest of the game.

hashinshin·Nov 20, 2014·61 votes·10,320 views

I don't really need to explain why, do I?

You just get 8% more damage... for the rest of the game. And yet somehow this was supposed to be LESS snowbally than ~190 gold?

106 Comments

grapeful11Nov 20, 201428 votes

I don't understand the thought process here either.

Really ridiculous that it is the FIRST buff. I can understand getting a buff like that later on, but getting that first dragon is easily the most important early objective. Gameplay is going to surround that thing and the "strategic Diversity" they longed for will go right into the dragon pit.

MrBuffingtonNov 21, 20145 votes

Yea, the buffs seem really out of order. First and fifth (maybe third) buffs are the only ones that seem just outright good, the others are a bit more situational. I feel like the only reason to manage dragons beyond the first one is just to deny that first buff to the enemy team

CozarkianNov 20, 201427 votes

Yeah, 3 points in Warlord gets you 5% BONUS AD, one dragon gets you 8% TOTAL AD.

Now, the "strategic tradeoff" Riot is looking for is that teams will take a turret if they lose dragon. One turret gets your team 650 gold, which isn't even enough for 2 longswords (20 AD). To get 20 AD from dragon, a team needs 250 total AD. Pretty much every team will have that by level 3 and quite possibly level 1 with AD runes/masteries. Throw on the 8% AP for your mages, and getting that first dragon is hands down the most important objective in S5. And once you get that first dragon, stopping your opponents from getting their first dragon becomes hands down the most important objective in S5.

Okay, second most important. Technically, the nexus is the most important objective.

Kuroi86Dec 15, 20141 votes

To get 20 AD from dragon, a team needs 250 total AD. Pretty much every team will have that by level 3 and quite possibly level 1 with AD runes/masteries.

Um... did you even bother looking up the numbers behind this little claim? Your numbers are WAY off.

A Slime AppearsNov 20, 201410 votes

Well I lost a game yesterday because my team wanted to get 5th dragon buff instead of pushing (we had just gotten baron and won the team fight). So they sat in dragon pit for a full fucking minute waiting for it to spawn. And we ended up losing because we got outscaled.

So the retardation the buff causes balances it out.

OmegaKraidNov 21, 20142 votes

Oh god, I'm glad I'm not the only one who has had that happen. We didn't lose the game, but the game was delayed for so long because people would stand at Dragon for 2 minutes rather than take towers/Inhibs and end the game WHEN THEY HAD AN EXPOSED NEXUS.

I was also the Jungler. Seriously, they just wanted all the buffs from the dragon AND a baron (2 barons in the end) which ended up delaying the game by over 15 minutes.

Fury and EmperorNov 21, 20143 votes

Well I lost a game yesterday because my team wanted to get 5th dragon buff instead of pushing (we had just gotten baron and won the team fight). So they sat in dragon pit for a full fucking minute waiting for it to spawn. And we ended up losing because we got outscaled.

So the retardation the buff causes balances it out.

Riot saw that too many games were lost due to baron throws, so they added dragon throws in order to split it halfway.

ShalkenNov 20, 20149 votes

It is a serious damage bonus, they might tone it down a bit. In the PBE, if a team had higher stacks of the "dragonslayer" buff, they would also take much more damage from the dragon. Looking over the patch notes, however, it seems that Riot has removed it. If they re-implemented this stacking damage, it might help keep a team from snowballing quite as hard.

andingNov 20, 20146 votes

that explains why i had bonus ad without building damage when i was playing thresh support. i bet riot is gonna tone it down to maybe 5% and make it last 5 minutes or something similar in an upcoming patch. if they do do that, you heard it from me lol

SerBlaiseNov 20, 20146 votes

It's important to realize that both teams can get the 8% damage. If the enemy team gets their first dragon, your first dragon will still give you that bonus. They have to maintain dragon control if they want to prevent you from doing that. Maybe if you take a tower instead, you can invest in the wards necessary to take that control back. It is definitely a big buff though. And it will make sense to contest it a lot earlier in the game.

CozarkianNov 20, 20147 votes

It's easier to maintain dragon control with an 8% AD/AP buff (and all of the extra snowball power you get from using that buff to win lanes and push towers) than it is to get the buff in the first place.

SerBlaiseNov 20, 20142 votes

I agree to an extent, although you don't get that extra snowball from winning lanes and pushing towers immediately. I think the probelm is going to be low level dragons where its not possible for top lane or any lane to push down a tower in the amount of time it takes to get dragon. But they really want thos dragon contests i guess.

CozarkianNov 20, 20149 votes

You have 6 minutes before the next dragon spawns. During that time, your jungler will get a clear speed advantage over the enemy, which will allow him/her to build a gold lead and/or to gank more frequently. Your lanes will poke harder and clear faster, allowing them to roam and/or force opponents out of lane. A lot can happen in 6 minutes.

Also, you have a huge incentive to make sure you win the second dragon, because not only do you prevent the opponents from getting their 8% buff, you'll also get another buff that will help you clear waves and jungles faster.

As I think more about it, I think having dragon stacks apply a debuff that means you take more damage from the dragon makes a lot of sense, because the real problem isn't the power of the buff stacks, it is the ability to use that power to prevent your opponent's from getting the same buffs.

SerBlaiseNov 20, 20145 votes

I agree; the debuff would make sense. I think it will be interesting to see just how difficult it is to play against the 8% bonus though. Maybe your top lane was winning lane, and then the enemy got the 8% bonus. is it enough to squash that toplane lead? In the average game, you usually are not loosing all three lanes, and if you are, you are probably going to loose dragon anyways. So will the 8% bonus be enough to shut down those lanes that you are currently loosing? That's the big question imo.

Yi Wreck ShenNov 21, 20142 votes

It's important to realize that both teams can get the 8% damage. If the enemy team gets their first dragon, your first dragon will still give you that bonus. They have to maintain dragon control if they want to prevent you from doing that. Maybe if you take a tower instead, you can invest in the wards necessary to take that control back. It is definitely a big buff though. And it will make sense to contest it a lot earlier in the game.

Team who gets first dragon has a huge advantage. For 6 or w.e mins they have a pretty big statistical advantage over the opposing team. For that 6 mins that team will be owning lanes and opposing jungler will have better clears etc. if the other team gets the second dragon then whoopie. Now you guys share the same statistical advantage. But news flash. Other team is still ahead because they have been 11% stronger then you as a team for the past 6 mins and are still ahead of you.

You lose that second dragon 2-0 it's gg. The team is now fed , much stronger and are now melting your turrets.

You are ruining an already perfect game. The jungle is now ruined. Go back to the old jungle. Keep the smiting buffs and lower smite cd. Jungle camp buffs are kinda dumb too.

Plz consider going back.

SerBlaiseNov 21, 20143 votes

could not disagree more. Someone already mentioned, but an 8% increase is like one longsword of a difference. Nobody ever said GG because of a longsword difference. There isn;t even an AP item low enough to give an example of an 8% increase in comparable ap. at least at the early stage when you would actually be getting the buff.

Drunk RummateNov 20, 20146 votes

8% on first drag will amount to about a longsword in damage for AD champs, less on mages if they're rushing low AP items like Athenes

i really dont see the issue considering how difficult the new dragon is to kill.

Chaotic ReksNov 20, 20145 votes

8% on first drag will amount to about a longsword in damage for AD champs, less on mages if they're rushing low AP items like Athenes

i really dont see the issue considering how difficult the new dragon is to kill.

The new dragon is easier than the old dragon, seriously any lvl 2 Pantheon or Fiora can solo it without a problem.

Drunk RummateNov 20, 20146 votes

8% on first drag will amount to about a longsword in damage for AD champs, less on mages if they're rushing low AP items like Athenes

i really dont see the issue considering how difficult the new dragon is to kill.

The new dragon is easier than the old dragon, seriously any lvl 2 or can solo it without a problem.

Those 2 champions abuse the fact that dragon attacks slow and they can block it's attacks. That mechanic will almost certainly be nerfed lol.

serpensortia1Nov 20, 20143 votes

Fiora ends with low health, so any enemy can stop her. I agree though that dragon attacks shouldn't be blocked by Panth's passive.

KalarepaNov 20, 20144 votes

Wait, they didn't fix soloing on lvl 2 (or 1 as Nid), after all those videos from beta? Well, great job Riot.

Ayo BreezyNov 20, 20143 votes

8% on first drag will amount to about a longsword in damage for AD champs, less on mages if they're rushing low AP items like Athenes

i really dont see the issue considering how difficult the new dragon is to kill.

The new dragon is easier than the old dragon, seriously any lvl 2 or can solo it without a problem.

Wow easier for 2 champions... nice. And if these 2 champions choose to solo it at lvl 2 it takes them pretty long, so while they are taking 3-5 minutes soloing dragon, the enemy jungler is actually making an impact on the game. And if one of these champs is in the game on the enemy team then just take the time to fucking ward dragon around lvl 2. Problem solved.

@OP 8% really isn't that much and if you think about it the gold was actually better. Getting dragon when it gave gold could be the difference between backing with 1400 gold or 1600 gold. I would much prefer the gold to complete my items, but the new dragon is much better in terms of mid to late game depending if you actually have dragon control.

KingsgraveNov 20, 20145 votes

8% on first drag will amount to about a longsword in damage for AD champs, less on mages if they're rushing low AP items like Athenes

i really dont see the issue considering how difficult the new dragon is to kill.

The new dragon is easier than the old dragon, seriously any lvl 2 or can solo it without a problem.

Wow easier for 2 champions... nice. And if these 2 champions choose to solo it at lvl 2 it takes them pretty long, so while they are taking 3-5 minutes soloing dragon, the enemy jungler is actually making an impact on the game. And if one of these champs is in the game on the enemy team then just take the time to fucking ward dragon around lvl 2. Problem solved.

@OP 8% really isn't that much and if you think about it the gold was actually better. Getting dragon when it gave gold could be the difference between backing with 1400 gold or 1600 gold. I would much prefer the gold to complete my items, but the new dragon is much better in terms of mid to late game depending if you actually have dragon control.

If Pantheon solos Dragon at level 3 it takes him around 40 seconds and he takes 0 damage

metaworldpeace10Nov 20, 20146 votes

I've played a couple of games on the new patch. The 8% damage increase is a HUGE boost to overall DPS. I was playing top lane, which already has horrible snowball issues. When we got the first dragon, I just started to rofl stomp my lane. It's too snowbally of a stat. I'd like to see a reduction to at least 5%.

GorszNov 20, 20144 votes

Technically its 8% ad, or AP not 8% total damage :P

HayaishiNov 20, 20143 votes

Yes first dragon buff is overpowered, there's just so little chance you comeback after losing the first dragon.

EzraTwitchNov 20, 20143 votes

8% of 100 Damage is 8, thats less than a longsword... Additoinlly if you trade dragon for a tower (not uncommon) you are actually behind in gold.

CataclysmCrashNov 20, 20143 votes

Drag buff is OP and it isn't hard to kill at all lol.

Literally the best junglers in this season are defined by how early and how quickly they can solo drake.

PadagiNov 20, 20143 votes

Completely disagree. So far 4 games on 4.20 and all but one had both teams getting varying levels of dragon buffs.

8% AD and AP early game is basically nothing. So unless you go 30+ minutes and one team has STILL not gotten a dragon buff, then it's a problem. But, that's the teams problem and not the 8% buff. You shouldn't make that first buff useless, either.

Overall, I think you're very wrong and that first dragon affects the overall game very little except to indicate who had the better map vision and team cohesion in the early game.

FrikgeekNov 21, 20141 votes

You're saying that 10-15 AD/AP is "basically nothing"?! That's 360-540 gold PER PLAYER, so much more than 190g per player that old dragon gave.

Yi Wreck ShenNov 21, 20141 votes

You're saying that 10-15 AD/AP is "basically nothing"?! That's 360-540 gold PER PLAYER, so much more than 190g per player that old dragon gave.

Gives the whole team first blood basically without having to go back and buy anything.

Verin OakenheelNov 20, 20143 votes

Epic monsters don't feel epic. I guess they are harder(ish) but I think it should be stepped up even more. The Dragon and Baron should get buffed for each nearby champion.

LuckyRedenNov 21, 20141 votes

Yeah, Panth can kill dragon at level 1 if he has attack speed runes. Fiora can kill it at level 3, many champs can solo early on.

DeathByWaffleNov 20, 20143 votes

I honestly have zero idea why Riot decided this would be a good idea.

"Hey, guys! Let's give a permanent damage buff to the entire team for just one dragon! For strategic diversity!"

"Genius!"

salćeNov 20, 20142 votes

I don't like forced objectives. Dragon changes league game play substantially. Pick WW and you can 1v1 dragon at level 3. Get a double kill bot, take dragon, and get a perma buff? This means if you are getting Baron, but the other team decided to take Dragon for there 5 stack, you may have to switch objectives cause that 5th Dragon Stack is more valuable then Baron buff. Its ridiculous.

Tsukuy0m1Nov 20, 20142 votes

they should make the first buff into the 3rd buff and make the first dragon buff the increased damage towards minions

Ad Astra per AspNov 20, 20142 votes

The thing is whoever gets dragon probably had control of the map anyway and they will probably get the 2nd dragon for the same reason. Still if you let them start dragon, there is a chance if you ward well you can come back and turn things around in the dragon pit. Steals seem to mean a lot more right now too. The people this buff helps most is damage dealers, such as riven is just gonna be ridiculous now. The thing is the buff works wonders for some champions while ones like amumu or rammus won't see nearly the benefit.

ESeTyRCNov 20, 20142 votes

I think the first dragon buff being the % damage buff is the best option.

Even in a scenario where one team has Max dragon stacks and the other, only one dragon kill, that single dragon kill mitigates the Max dragon stack advantage to 16%. Considering a 300 AD champ, that's 16% advantage translates to 48 damage. It's pretty close to what would be given by Baron.

Also, early on, the key difference between dragon and turret is that dragon provides some damage and cannot be used instead for potions and wards in the way turrets can.

The 8% is significant enough that it's worth killing dragon for, but turret can provide extra vision and sustain that dragon can't.

tl;dr Dragon's first buff is fine. It provides an easy-to-access advantage that can't be exchanged for other things in the way turret gold can.

LuckyRedenNov 20, 20142 votes

This is pretty true, but you have to keep in mind its a %, not going to help tanks and supports as much. Also, it really stresses the necesity to keep vision on dragon. This is why they have the scuttle crab, a new objective to help counter the strength of dragon.

I definitely see where you're coming from though, especially seeing how easy it is to kill now. Panth can kill it level 1 with Attack speed runes. I think it should be like 5%, especially since it gets doubled later on, and Dragon needs a buff.

serpensortia1Nov 20, 20141 votes

Doesn't it triple with tier 5? 24% is a lot of bonus damage.

LuckyRedenNov 21, 20141 votes

Im fairly sure its just a double, but on all buffs. Yeah its a lot but it takes a long time to get, only lasts a few minutes, and is SUPPOSED to be game breaking. I have yet to see 5 stack dragon buff.

HowldoomNov 20, 20142 votes

8% more damage at the time the first dragon goes down is big enough to make a difference, but still very small without items. If you get your first dragon, but your lanes suck, then that +8% damage is going to take longer to show.

The permabuffs Dragon gives now emphasizes the need to stick to the plan of controlling that objective to get to dragon 5. If your team can get even three dragons consecutively, though, then you shouldn't need to have to drag-on the game longer for the full five stacks. Besides, the Hand of Baron buff is better by itself for cracking open the base than the first couple of Dragon kills.

Also, because it's the first buff Dragon gives to a team that kills it, then chances are that both teams will have killed Dragon and received the +8% damage buff by late-game, unless you facerolled them hard enough early on to keep them from ever getting it. At that point, though, further Dragons would be overkill, and waiting for more of them would increase the risk of the game swinging back in favor of your enemies.

Yi Wreck ShenNov 21, 20141 votes

8% more damage at the time the first dragon goes down is big enough to make a difference, but still very small without items. If you get your first dragon, but your lanes suck, then that +8% damage is going to take longer to show.

The permabuffs Dragon gives now emphasizes the need to stick to the plan of controlling that objective to get to dragon 5. If your team can get even three dragons consecutively, though, then you shouldn't need to have to drag-on the game longer for the full five stacks. Besides, the Hand of Baron buff is better by itself for cracking open the base than the first couple of Dragon kills.

Also, because it's the first buff Dragon gives to a team that kills it, then chances are that both teams will have killed Dragon and received the +8% damage buff by late-game, unless you facerolled them hard enough early on to keep them from ever getting it. At that point, though, further Dragons would be overkill, and waiting for more of them would increase the risk of the game swinging back in favor of your enemies.

Ok well what if team has first blood and first dragon within first 5 min? That's gg for whatever lane that is. I read someone say first dragon only equals a long sword at an early level. Long sword = 360 gold. So basically whole team just scored first blood with the first dragon. I played two games so far. Didn't get drag either game first and the other team stomped.

StrilterNov 20, 20142 votes

Don't know the math, but I kinda like how controlling that objective pays off for you more in the long run by consistently controlling the map. Sure you got the flat gold for your whole team but before that buff one could easily catch back up in gold depending on the situation around that dragon... it actually means something to control your jungle now. Personally I like that.

Brenticus12Nov 20, 20142 votes

Eeeh, I haven't felt like it affects the game all that much. Of course, it could just be because the enemy team wasn't great, but I recently played Rengar jungle vs a Rammus jungle and they got first dragon. All I had to do was gank pushed lanes more often than before and let my Kennen snowball. We even had a troll Soraka who raged cause she didn't get ADC.

We ended up winning and were even on dragon stacks.

ArokNov 21, 20142 votes

I also saw Kalista OP threads come out on her first day...

Miku Lv99Nov 21, 20142 votes

I agree that it is op. Also I find it kinda weird that it affects total ad but not total damage done by anything that uses ap. So it for some reason is a bigger buff to ad users. And 8% is better than a longsword since it scales better. Yes it's only a long sword when you first get it, but later, it's about as good as a pickaxe. And for mages, yes it's only like an amplifying tome early on, but later on, it's more like a blasting wand. And even a longsword + amplifying tome for each player on your team is as good as 360 + 435 gold = 795 gold. Way more than the old 190.

Forest GemNov 22, 20142 votes

Yeah, after playing two games in a row with the enemy team having a Warwick as their jungler and getting curb-stomped, I realized that the dragon buffs need a serious nerf. In the first one they got all five dragon buffs, while they only got three in the second. First one also got Baron. I see major nerfs coming to a lot of the new things from this patch in the next one, I swear. Between the dragon buffs and Kalista, and probably some other stuff, there will be nerfs.

WeihGuyNov 21, 20141 votes

Should definitely be one of the last buffs you get. Getting the first buff makes it so hard for the enemy to make comebacks. With all the previous changes they made to encourage comebacks, I don't know why they would do this