I dislike Cassiopeia's stacking passive.

Kowe The Ewok·Nov 28, 2014·54 votes·9,880 views

It's simply a 35 minute compensation for having her old ratios scrapped and her earlygame weakened. Even the CDR is just a poor apology for increasing the cooldown on her Q by 33%. The lifesteal is the only real feature gained and to be honest - it doesn't even make sense! Is she a vampire now?

I appreciate Stashu's effort to fix this broken rework. But I can't see it working out if her passive is solely based on compensating what was taken away from her and a single added bonus which doesn't even make sense lore or gameply wise.

It could be fun if her stacking passive was about adding utility to her poison, like adding Magic Resist Shred, Slows or lowering the enemies attack damage.

Currently however it's just dull and unrewarding. I dare say that old Cassio players will never accept it as long as it's sole purpose consists in manipulating her powercurve to have a worse earlygame.

47 Comments

RiotRiot StashuNov 28, 201418 votes

Hey! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The sole purpose of the passive is not to compensate what was taken away, but I can definitely see how it appears to be that way. A big part of it was to curb the oppressive lane bully pattern, but the other parts were to offer her a unique way of growing in power that was meant to be exciting and rewarding. As you say, however, it's landed in a place that's a bit dull. Were working on making sure we've get some poison feel back and get her into a balanced state, largely by flattening out her ridiculously steep power curve a bit. This'll likely hit in 4.21, and it's likely that the passive will still feel a bit flat even on a balanced champion, so we'll be evaluating that as we go and be ready to make changes to make feel less like a shackle and more like a cool way of growing power.

ScampyNov 28, 201457 votes

We don't WANT a power growing passive though. That's what you want, and not to be rude but most of us don't care if you're having a ton of fun. WE want to have a ton of fun, and a stacking passive is keeping that from happening.

You're, uh... You're like Aang in that scene with the past avatars. "This isn't about you" is what the air bender lady says, or something like that. Your sole duty is to the players.

"Here is my wisdom for you. Selfless duty calls upon you to sacrifice your own needs, and do whatever it takes to protect the world." Or save the snake lady. Whatever. It's not a perfect metaphor but it's an Avatar metaphor, and if you don't think Avatar is the tightest shit then get out of my face.

Stez007Nov 28, 201415 votes

This, this and even more of this.

Some alternative passives:

Her original passive (solves her mana issues, explained below) X less damage from poisoned targets (some more defense so she isn't as unbearably squishy) Each tick of poison on a champion/use of Twin Fang on a poisoned champion heals Cass for X (or gives her a shield; fang could heal for double; better sustain in lane and dueling survivability) Reduce her ulti's cooldown 1s for each X seconds an enemy champion is poisoned (better defense later in the game; definitely my least favorite)

Could probably think of more.

Other changes she needs:

Miasma deals 150% damage to minions (or, conversely, to champions) making it a better farming tool (or better harassing tool)

Reduce her mana costs across the board and remove the mana regen on E. Better yet, do so while restoring her passive (which would make her a better lategame carry, since she'd have the mana reserves to spam without needing to prioritize RoA/Seraphs)

Encouraging the Cass player to last hit with E is silly and puts her in a LOT of danger. It should never have been emphasized in the first place, and it should be abolished. She needs to be able to farm reliably with Q and W if you want her to survive the lane phase; getting into E range to last hit caster creeps is quite literally begging to be jumped on and killed.

There, I just fixed Cass. You're welcome.

ScampyNov 28, 201413 votes

Pack up everyone, we're done here! See you all in the complaint threads for the next botched rework!

Stez007Nov 28, 201411 votes

I want to laugh, but I'm only sad because i've said the same things a dozen times and he clearly didn't even bother to look, let alone think about or test it.

Oh, and needless to say her ratios should be restored since that garbage passive would be taken out and replaced with one of the above. But ofc that will never happen 'cause the passive is his baby and he'll defend it to his last breath.

ScampyNov 28, 201413 votes

Don't count him out just yet. I'm sure there's an awesome idea for a Cass passive somewhere on his head. It's just not THIS ONE.

Serpents EmbraceNov 29, 20145 votes

Everyone has the potential for that. Stashu lacks the will the act on it.

I counted him out two months ago when it became apparent that the mess he made on Live was something he would rather defend than fix.

Ding an SichNov 28, 20142 votes

If the changes you suggest were to happen, she would go back to being the sort of lane bully that is completely terrible to play against. She not only needs reasonable trade offs, but clear and distinct points where someone playing against her has the ability to possibly counter attack. Most of the comments in this thread are about making her stronger, or shifting her to a point where she can safely poison, and face little to no repercussions.

Stez007Nov 28, 201414 votes

I'd rather she be terrible to play against than terrible to play, at least until a compromise can be settled. She wasn't game-breaking, she wasn't permabanned, she wasn't so dominant that no one could lane against her nor win against her late.

Right now she is unbearable to play and has the worst winrate of any champion--and that winrate is only getting worse. The PBE changes have done absolutely nothing to change how unfun and weak she is, and I am sick of waiting for more small tweaks that will change absolutely nothing.

She needs certain things to function properly. Those are what I suggested. Anything less would change nothing.

Ding an SichNov 28, 20143 votes

This was the compromise. Any champion is better left weak, than game ruining, especially given that has a much bigger impact on the community at large, than just a single champion being slightly sub par.

More so, Cass had the same issues WW or other older champs have, in that they aren't necessarily a good pick most of the time, but when they are picked it's because their older niches are just so much more abusable and easy. Blitz, Nasus, Amumu, WW, Yi, Morde, and other champions are good examples of this. If a champion was truly terrible then you wouldn't see pro's be able to do so well with them, as if they were just another random pick.

So while Cass wasn't necessarily the bane of other midlanes preceding her rework, her kit and play style when successful; did still promote her bad qualities. Now while there is a case she maybe feels "off", the comments referring to her being weak or helpless in most lanes seems alittle disingenuous. Especially given in equal skill levels someone like Voyboy can turn on most other mids without too much of a problem.

I do (honestly) think you probably can come up with a change to Cass that is actually healthy, but it's important to remember everything comes with trade offs, and being able to Q W a wave, and then Qing an enemy champion while receiving little to no counter attacks. Because this isn't really about making Cass "better", that's easy. But making her engaging, and having little toxic elements in their kit is the most important matter. Good luck with the forum crusading!

Stez007Nov 28, 201421 votes

If being able to clear a wave with a couple of skillcasts from range--and still be able to harass--is toxic, then nearly every ranged mid-laner is toxic.

Ahri, Anivia, Annie, Azir, Brand, Gragas, Heimerdinger, Janna, Jayce, Karma, Karthus, LeBlanc, Lissandra, Lux, Malzahar, Morgana, Orianna, Syndra, Veigar, Vel'koz, Viktor, Xerath, Ziggs and Zyra are not all toxic, yet they can all harass at range while reliably clearing waves quickly and with few casts.

Why can't Cass be allowed to do the same? If she cannot, she is not playable. She was not dominating matches, she was not ruining solo queue nor running rampant in competitive play. She was doing nothing to demonstrate her supposed toxicity. One day Riot decided she was toxic, simply by saying "guys this is toxic k."

She was dominating Treeline, sure, but Riot has repeatedly said they don't give a flying fuck about Treeline balance, so why should that have had any effect on their decision? That was her only sin: too strong on Treeline.

The rework was not only unnecessary but left her in an unplayable, horrid state that is neither fun nor compelling. She's below trash tier and she will remain so until she is either overhauled completely (moreso than Sion, even) or returned to the state she was in. "Toxic" my ass.

If they really, really want to rework her then they should've figured out a good way to do it before changing her, and especially before pushing changes that were reviled on the PBE to live. But Riot's testing process is "herp derp this is cool right??? it doesnt crash the game? awesome! lets put it in! Oh, they dont like it? Too bad! Put it in anyway and we can fix it later if we remember."

At this point I'd rather they removed her from the game and made a new champion from scratch. You can't take the fun parts of a champion out and put jack shit in its place and expect people to like it. This is no compromise, this is "fuck you, that thing you like is total shit and you're shit for liking it."

2pudge1cupNov 28, 201412 votes

^So much this

Every single mid laner has a form of wave clear and most are better than old cassio's. Plus there are a number of lane bullies with higher range and better kill potential than hers.

It just makes zero sense to target cassio as the one sacrificial lamb who got reworked when mid mages/assassins have those design issues on every single champ that goes there.

Stashu, you failed. It happens. Your best bet is to cut your losses and revert it.

Ariel the CruelNov 28, 20144 votes

At this point I'd rather they removed her from the game and made a new champion from scratch. You can't take the fun parts of a champion out and put jack shit in its place and expect people to like it. This is no compromise, this is "fuck you, that thing you like is total shit and you're shit for liking it."

They can if the community behind it is small enough. See Karma . What qualifies as big enough? See LeeSin .

Ding an SichNov 28, 20141 votes

She wasn't the same as any of those mids though(pre rework). Everyone you mentioned either had adequate trade off's, or couldn't achieve enough damage for their harass and farming to matter. For ahri to scare anyone in lane she has to land her charm, otherwise her poke is pretty much insignificant. Similar rantings could be said about every champion you listed except maybe heimdinger and viktor. The trade mark way to defeat almost all of these mids was just to simply get on top of them, because besides maybe one ability (brand stun, anivia stun, jayce knockaway, ect) you could kill them pretty easy.

Old cass though? She just needs to W herself, place a Q on you, and then when she has the MS advantage to run ahead and then ult you if you follow, she made it so you always had to bring a friend to kill her. Other champions to get away have to blow as much as an ult or a high cd ability. Her type of skill set and play style that existed before was simply remnants of the environment Cass needed to be in t survive that context. Just because she wasn't the new flavor of the month with her old kit like WW is now, it doesn't mean her toxic elements weren't there, it just means Riot's prior nerfs were doing better keeping her out of the lime light until they could take the time to look at her. This was a long time coming, and a good thing at that. Otherwise if she did become popular again before they could touch her, then she really would be an unplayable mess at this moment instead of something in development

Otherwise it seems you're being a bit dramatic about this:P. These types of posts have come and gone with good heart in them, but little appreciation for how the game at large works. That's usually what forums are good for: breeding fanatics and alot of theory crafting but no actual discourse past what each poster is willing to step away from.

Stez007Nov 28, 20147 votes

Old cass though? She just needs to W herself, place a Q on you, and then when she has the MS advantage to run ahead and then ult you if you follow, she made it so you always had to bring a friend to kill her.

In the time it takes you to do all that, you are still taking damage from your opponent. Your only CC is on a delay and conditional, so you can't even guarantee a stun to help you survive. You are also among the squishiest champions in the game.

Tell me more about how "all you have to do is W yourself and Q them" while they're in your face murdering you in half the time it takes you to cast W, let alone Q too.

EDG CleanloveNov 28, 201412 votes

When I think of a champion that is impossible to lane against or unhealthy, cassiopeia is pretty far down on my list.

Ding an SichNov 28, 20141 votes

Current Cass no, because they gave her an opening now if she wishes to harass the lane opponent. If she just wants to farm, then she get's the standard ap mid treatment.

U4fyn2vZzWNov 29, 20142 votes

Honestly, even pre-rework I would GLADLY lane against a Cassiopeia then a fucking Syndra or Orianna any day of the fucking week.

5G8Nri0B54Nov 28, 20144 votes

You just described pretty much most viable AP mids...

Ding an SichNov 28, 20141 votes

Not really. Most "standard" AP mids have to make a choice between damage, wave clearing, or even harassing the lane opponent. Past iterations of Cass did not have to make this choice because of the high uptime of Q and E, as well as W killing most of a wave for her.

LeeDarkNov 28, 20145 votes

Cass wasn't game ruining. She wasn't banned often at ANY level of play, and didn't have unusually high win rates or pick rates. You're talking out of your ass.

FluppetsNov 28, 20142 votes

LOL and by LOL I mean I blew some more air than usual out of my nose.

BavalNov 29, 20141 votes

. Selfless duty calls upon you to sacrifice your own needs, and do whatever it takes to protect the world." Or save the snake lady. Whatever. It's not a perfect metaphor but it's an Avatar metaphor, and if you don't think Avatar is the tightest shit then get out of my face.

You know he ignored this advice in the show right?

Kowe The EwokNov 28, 201420 votes

Thanks for your response.

I already played the PBE build and to be honest - it doesn't convince me. Her E amplifying her Q is a solid idea, but it doesn't play out well. With the damage on Q being reduced yet again** landing a single Q feels horribly unrewarding.** And following up with an E implies that your enemy mispositionied.

She's has become less about playerskill (hitting), but more about her enemy simply playing bad (not using his range / mobilit tools).

Such combo mechnics are great on a champion like Anivia - because her Q already is hella strong on its own considering that it is an AoE stun with fair CD and high damage.

That being said:

I honestly believe you're exaggerating her lane bullying potential. Not to mention that champions like Zed, Blanc, Xerath, Ziggs, Syndra or Azir all feature heavy lane-bullying potential which exceeds that of pre-rwork Cassiopeia but are considered fine.

5G8Nri0B54Nov 28, 201414 votes

There's two issues I've pointed out in the other thread already.

But...isn't "building items on an overly item-reliant champion" growing power enough?

Not to mention, you've made multiple mentions of how her being a DoT champion stepped on Brand's(burst combo),** Malzahar**'s(DoT that plays like a burst combo), Mordekaiser's(his R?), and Zyra's(no DoT?) toes.

Yet how is this Passive not stepping on the toes of Syndra, Viktor, Kha'zix, and others who have such a similar theme? I mean, as terrible and boring as Syndra's Passive is, it atleast fits her more than Cassiopeia's "fun and exciting curse".

HellioningNov 28, 201413 votes

I feel that this passive is A) not balanceable in a way that feels satisfying and B) not fit for Cass.

So A). Sure, it's great to get 1200 AP, but that doesn't mean much when your ratios aren't that great. And they HAVE to be 'not that great' because you CAN get to 1200 AP. Having, say, Malz-esque ratios (.8, .8, 1.3, 1% per 100) would make things ridiculous, so her ratios have to be worse. Sure, late game, you can do good damage. You can certainly become the late game hyper carry and destroy things that you want her to be (assuming you don't die). But you don't do the damage you'd expect from being able to say 'I have 1200 AP'. Plus, those bad ratios mean that early game, before you get your stacks and your items, your AP means basically nothing.

B) Why this passive? For what purpose? This doesn't match old Cass (and even the connections to new Cass are tenuous and your explanation really made it seem like you were reaching and desperate to explain yourself), and considering I started playing Cass for old Cass, that's a problem. Are we going to see a rework to Ziggs or Syndra that makes them late game hyper carries? I trust that you're trying to make things right, but I don't see HOW things could be right as long as you stick to this passive. Unfortunately, you REALLY seem to like this passive. Why do you think this is a good passive? Try to explain this to me as an old Cass player. Don't go into game health, or use new lore to justify this. Explain to me, an old Cass player, why I would want to continue playing new Cass. Please.

CuixNov 28, 20147 votes

stooop making her a skiiirmisheeeerrrr she's not a braawleeerrrr

why will you not listennnnnnn

FluppetsNov 28, 20143 votes

Ima just copy-pasta this:

I'd say give her the tools early to sustain in lane and waveclear, with a natural fall-off come late-game. To compensate have the Passive grant bouses that strengthen her sustained DPS playstyle.

This would be a curse; at first she's just a shy little snake-lady scared and dieing. but the poison in her grows stronger until, in the end she's a ruthless predator.

This would play into the troubles you're having right now, you cant increase her waveclear/poke damage too much, because that would turn her into a poke/lanebully, but puttting all her power in E from the start would either make her too strong 1v1 and/or leave her too weak to waveclear and too heavily mana-gated. Alot of the problems you're having is because** the bonuses you give** (aside from the E lifesteal hint hint) are general and apply to all playstyles and abilities, rather than bonuses that single out and enhance a particular aspect.

The E lifesteal is a generally loved mechanic and should be the path to follow. rather than general stats. You will always have trouble balancing her kit, unless you make the bonuses more specific and hence much easier to control.

So I'd say fuck it, give her the tools to waveclear early with high base damages and low Ratio's then grant higher ratios on E and add meaningfull mechanics on the passive that enhance her DPS/predator style that are separate from stats gained through items. Sustain through lifesteal, kiting tools through Movespeed, execute damage through %missing health damage, E enhancing Poison etc.

**It's adapt or die; **you need to embrace the curse and go full beast-mode late game with an E-focused playstyle to be succesful.

You are having trouble with a shackled feeling; but that's because your solutions are too general (AP and CDR). Just grant her enough of one type of power early that falls off, to be replaced through the passive by another type of power (power that cant be found through items/stats). With your current passive, you take away power early through Cooldowns, ratio's and base damages (so Cass wont abuse a poke/bully playstyle) to give her back in late-game that same power you took (in the hopes that they will use this power for the playstyle you envision).

ps: Have you considered the Q's MS boost starting higher and decaying over time? with an over-time equal movespeed, but I really feel this would make it more interesting with valuable pro's and cons while giving it a stronger "snake-slither" feel. pps: I know some of these suggestions you have already replied upon, but I feel your answers were very dismissive/defensive and from the POV of keeping your passive and THEN adding those mechanics.

LupusNoxNov 28, 201412 votes

I really don't know were you are coming from with this point:

Her passive is LITERALLY giving her back everything that she lost during the rework. It gives her more AP, to deal with the fact that her ratios were smashed so you need almost double the AP in order to do the same amount of damage. Which means shes glass on a low range immobile champ. It gives her CDR so that she can spam the spells which had CD increases during the rework. And it stacks and has to take time to power up. All together, what you did was just reduce everything that made Cassiopeia good, attach it to her passive and say "well, you can have this back after 40 minutes." You also made it so that her entire kit revolves around her E, making it so that if she doesn't land 4-5 E's, she might have well had not even spent the mana on a Q.

Your rework is terrible and took Cass in the opposite direction that it should have

EssoranceNov 28, 20149 votes

Hey! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The sole purpose of the passive is not to compensate what was taken away, but I can definitely see how it appears to be that way. A big part of it was to curb the oppressive lane bully pattern, but the other parts were to offer her a unique way of growing in power that was meant to be exciting and rewarding. As you say, however, it's landed in a place that's a bit dull. Were working on making sure we've get some poison feel back and get her into a balanced state, largely by flattening out her ridiculously steep power curve a bit. This'll likely hit in 4.21, and it's likely that the passive will still feel a bit flat even on a balanced champion, so we'll be evaluating that as we go and be ready to make changes to make feel less like a shackle and more like a cool way of growing power.

Reading your nonsense is becoming more and more tiresome as the days go by.

Blkninjar87Nov 28, 20145 votes

Im not going to insult you but clearly Cassiopeia design is flawed, i dunno if to blame the passive or E. Inherently her e is dumb, cassios e is the single target equivalent to evelyn's q. Theres nothing special about it so i don't see why you try so hard to base plays around it.

Honestly miasma is super unrewarding, which it shouldnt be it should be the most rewarding skill in the kit. Its hard to hit, hard to lock people in it, and now it does no damage.

Having only one cc on her ult is bad too. Tell me how come i can stun a whole team as syndra ever few seconds but for cass i must wait over a minute to stun no one?

DynamiteGazelleNov 28, 201410 votes

What's frustrating is that you are trying to justify this change to a champion (who has never been a problem) by saying she was an oppressive lane bully? I mean, am I missing something here? Was I afk during the so-called reign of terror where Cassio was an insta-ban in every game? Was there a time when her win rates just rocketed sky-high? Because if there was I sure didn't see it.

It just feels like a poor excuse. Just be honest with us and say that you as a team thought she was boring and a good candidate for this new hyper-carry mage that you brainstormed. Because I can think of a whole bunch of champions who are far more lane bully than Cass ever was.

And even if she was a lane bully, she had so much counterplay potential. Slow movement speed, no escape or movement based abilities whatsoever, not to mention just counterpicking an assassin to shut her down.

We don't hate you or anything like that, I think we all just feel that you are being a bit disingenuous with the things you tell us. Ya, she was never a super popular champion, but there are 120-odd champions and they can't all be equally popular, that's just statistics. So just give us the truth that she was the best candidate to experiment with, not that she was GGOPFF@20 all-powerful oppressive.

I Main SwainNov 28, 20142 votes

don't bother, they've taken over. anything that isn't raging about Cassiopeia being "horrible" gets downvoted and raged at nomatter what the comment, even if its something like this and its promising cass changes in the future.

Bronzer 5Nov 28, 20143 votes

The problems of Cassi's passive is not her power but monotonous playing patterns. If you solve dull farming, fixed item tree will remain. before a rework, players had lots of choices. item 3003 item 3151 , item 3116 (slow for hyper ADC) , item 3174 item 3089 , item 3007 or item 1076 ( pull on a power curve extremely early time)

I could have strategic selection under any circumstances, it was real team playing and made me exciting. BUT current passive impels me to buy only Tear and Deathcap. If you didn't buy those, It provides an excuse for reversing. However, before rework, I achieved hyper carry many times with Liandry and Rylai. Moreover the worst thing is happen in a position. Cassiopeia was also used as a supporter. her role was a guardian for hyper ADC in weak early game or anti carry like Zyra. Even for jungler. but now fiexd item tree and power curve spoiled everything. The possibility of position, item and skill tree was the most charming point of Cassiopeia.

If you don't like lane bully, please take other selections. Think about Caitlyn, she was lane bully also hyper carry in lategame, so you adjusted AS not DMG. (If you cut off a half DMG, she would never beat anyone. BUT you do this for Cassi.)

I have moderate idea for cassi. (for not lane bully. just hyper carry, lots of possibilities)

Passive: Stack + evolve QWE like Khazix OR Deadly cadence base but each step has unique effect like a dragon buff.

Q evolve : CD reduction 0.5 sec other skills when she spike twinfang to poisoned enemy(like Ryze), addtional high MS very short time(0.1~0.2 sec) when she hit an enemy
W evolve : mana vamp twice.
E evolve : CD reduction from 0.9 to 0.5 (poisoned enemy) skill vamp.

Noxious Blast

Damage: 75/115/195/235(+0.8 ability power)
Movement speed: 20%
Cooldown: 4 ~ 5 seconds not lane bully but open possibility as a supporter. high CD prevent another Ziggs from forking but ensure great AOE damage when she gush out E rush(high risk high return). addtional MS can solve cassi's old problem(concern about Bruiser) and it looks like a real snake.

Miasma

Damage per second: 25/35/45/55/65(+0.2 ability power)
mana vamp except for minion(for jungling or dragon choice not lane stability)

Twin Fang

Damage: 50/85/120/155/190(+0.55 ability power)
Utility: Now refunds its mana cost plus an additional 3% of Cassiopeia's total mana when it kills a unit.
Base CD is 0.9~1.0. (remember Caitlyn) CD can keep her power from bullying in early game, but save fun e rush in late game.

Would you mind referring to my idea?

The Queen ViperNov 28, 20144 votes

A big part of it was to curb the oppressive lane bully pattern....

Would like to point out that again, she hasn't been a "lane bully" since the Season 2. -.-

BallisticMouseNov 28, 20147 votes

Cassiopeia was already not a great mid-laner for the most part, you made her worse rito.

Blkninjar87Nov 28, 20146 votes

Cassiopeia has no reliable cc. Her only cc is stun. Okay so now imma list magesbthat outndamage her and has stuns and binds:

Morgana Lux Lissandra Elise Viegar Ahri LeBlanc Annie Nami Anivia Viktor Ziggs Syndra Xerath Ryze Soraka Karma Zyra Heimerdinger

Anywayx point is cass is a mage right? How come she A) does extremely low burst damage anf has absolutely no cc. Miasma would count if it didnt just diw a small slow in a tiny radius karthus has a similar kit and much better slow and synergy with rylas to slow in huge area.

How can devs justify a champ that does low damage and has no cc until her ult?

Cale017Nov 28, 20144 votes

Then old Cass players are free to reminisce about the good ol' days. The bottom line is that Riot made her that wasy specifically to reduce her power curve during the first half hour of a match. If the enemy team has a Cass, it means they have a severe disadvantage where the midlane is concerned. If your team fails to capitalize on it and lets her survive well enough to hit her power curve in the late game, it's no one else's fault but you and your teammates'. It works both ways as well, the current Cass player is rewarded for surviving until the lategame with a boost in what can be done with the champion. Is it the healthiest way to do it? Maybe not. But it's fulfilling a purpose, and even if some people don't like it compared to how she used to play, there are plenty of people who will learn to play her, compensating for her shit early game, just to take advantage of that late game power spike.

CreationFlawNov 28, 20142 votes

"A rewarding lategame" is what everybody is saying. But in truth of it is that she becomes unstoppable and nobody but Kayle and Tryndamere can 1v1, and that's only if they can get to her with her soft/hard cc. A Cassiopeia builds item 3048 item 3027 item 3089 item 3152 item 3116 item 3157 and she has a minimum of 850 bonus health, 40% CDR, a maximum of 1050 hp along with 50 armor and infinite mana, especially considering her E is reset/mana cost refunded if she hits it, no?

Then you tack on the fact that she has a large amount of cc, and she becomes this brutal champion that almost nobody can deal with unless they completely surprise her, and then with 850 bonus health, there's a decent chance they'll survive unless she laned against Veigar and he stuns her. I just find the grind to that decently hard, but once you get there, she becomes so faceroll to play that it's just toxic to play against. THEN, if you get the baron and final dragon buff, and the Elixer of Sorcery (Rare, but not that hard to do if you have a decent team, considering), then you have a maximum of around 1840ish(runes included) AP and the tankiness to boot, and then she also has 10% AP healing, so 180hp on hit? Really?

Don't get me wrong, she's hard to get there, but any competent player will be able to get there if the team is decent and holds out.

Kowe The EwokNov 28, 20147 votes

No Boots. No Mpen. Tear and RoA at the start of the game.... Not to mention that Seeker's Armguard also has to be stacked....

Champion SkinNov 28, 20143 votes

"A rewarding lategame" is what everybody is saying. But in truth of it is that she becomes unstoppable and nobody but Kayle and Tryndamere can 1v1, and that's only if they can get to her with her soft/hard cc. A Cassiopeia builds and she has a minimum of 850 bonus health, 40% CDR, a maximum of 1050 hp along with 50 armor and infinite mana, especially considering her E is reset/mana cost refunded if she hits it, no?

Then you tack on the fact that she has a large amount of cc, and she becomes this brutal champion that almost nobody can deal with unless they completely surprise her, and then with 850 bonus health, there's a decent chance they'll survive unless she laned against Veigar and he stuns her. I just find the grind to that decently hard, but once you get there, she becomes so faceroll to play that it's just toxic to play against. THEN, if you get the baron and final dragon buff, and the Elixer of Sorcery (Rare, but not that hard to do if you have a decent team, considering), then you have a maximum of around 1840ish(runes included) AP and the tankiness to boot, and then she also has 10% AP healing, so 180hp on hit? Really?

Don't get me wrong, she's hard to get there, but any competent player will be able to get there if the team is decent and holds out.

E does only refund if you land the killing blow so using it on champions drain mana quickly And the problem with the build is that any burst mage would absolutely destroy you (especially Veigar as you have lots of AP but no MR) and why wouldn't you get boots on Cassio who is so reliant on movement speed to stick to and kite people?

CreationFlawNov 28, 20142 votes

Basically, don't say that it's a super weak and boring passive, because it's one of the most powerful if you can use it.

I Main SwainNov 28, 20142 votes

ok, can we please just give these threads a break? it's basically the exact same thing just repeated several dozen times a week. we get it, yall don't like the new Cassiopeia, everybody knows, you don't have to make a thread complaining about it every day.

ps: OP this was not directed at you, as your thread isn't even a fraction as ragey and butthurt as the sad majority of threads ive seen, this is intended for all those who are of the previously stated type. ragey and butthurt.

SaiannaNov 28, 20141 votes

Here's my idea of passive that might fit her:

After 3 seconds of being poisoned enemy champion recieves additional 1% full hp damage, which adds for every next second. Bonus dmg capped at 100 vs monsters. So it's like x, x, x +1%, x+1%, etc If enemy champion is poisoned longer than 3s, CD on Cass ult is lowered by 1s and his magic resist lowered by 10% for 3s

LegostrikeNov 28, 20141 votes

why do people underrate her? it's like Sona, seriously, you're complaining about making a champion suddenly good in the hands of the right player but terrible in the hands of a wrong one.

5G8Nri0B54Nov 29, 20146 votes

Nobody cares how pathetic and weak she is. An UP champion can be buffed, problem solved.

The issue is that her kit is terrible. Whereas the old Cassiopeia had appeal, the new one shat on everything that made her interesting. THAT is something you can not rectify with buffs.

LegostrikeNov 29, 20141 votes

ah.