The purpose of the Assassin class update...

Bouncemaster Zac··1 votes·516 views

...was to give assassins, as a class, more counterplay. It failed on all counts. Every single assassin is just as impossible for their opponents to deal with as they've always been, some of them have even gotten worse. Rengar Fizz

This update was a mass failure.

4 Comments

Umbral Regent1 votes

Let's just ignore the fact that now, Katarina has more interactions (skill curve/ceiling, visible signs of entry/exit, visible reasons as to why you died to her), LeBlanc now has a full blown pause before her burst (long enough that she can't just throw Shatter Orb on someone, cast Distortion and delete someone), Talon has some cleaner visuals, actual options for fights that can be worked with/around by the enemy (not to mention the longer time his Rake hangs in the air), and that Rengar's Ultimate now only allows him to target and leap to one, nearest enemy champion rather than see and leap on anyone within leap range.

But, yeah, a total failure.

Bouncemaster Zac1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Umbral Regent,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=olB19wAQ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-12-01T08:27:43.233+0000)

Let's just ignore the fact that now, Katarina has more interactions (skill curve/ceiling, visible signs of entry/exit, visible reasons as to why you died to her), LeBlanc now has a full blown pause before her burst (long enough that she can't just throw Shatter Orb on someone, cast Distortion and delete someone), Talon has some cleaner visuals, actual options for fights that can be worked with/around by the enemy (not to mention the longer time his Rake hangs in the air), and that Rengar's Ultimate now only allows him to target and leap to one, nearest enemy champion rather than see and leap on anyone within leap range.

But, yeah, a total failure.

Katarina is the closest to a success they had. She can still oneshot someone with q-e-r and use her w as a free escape. Sure, she has more options, but the old ones are still there on top of them. LeBlanc's delay is meaningless because she's still inescapable, and now she can throw a spell at a minion to detonate an enemy standing vaguely near them the same way Ryze does. (His newest incarnation was a failure too.) Talon's W delay is the only counterplay they even attempted to add; he can still leap in and erase someone (hell, his Q can and does do over 100 damage in a single cast at level 1) and now he has a completely incontestible escape tool for afterwards. His E is just as broken and impossible to counteract as everyone was expecting when Riot revealed it. The fact that you're attempting to excuse new Rengar who can genuinely and with no exaggeration kill someone from full hp in under a second at level fucking one with bush leap-q-q is just ridiculous.

Yes. A total failure.

Umbral Regent1 votes

Well, I'm glad that you're more willing to read the whole of a post than most people are, but I still can't see where you're coming from.

LeBlanc has a fairly high skill curve due to the changes to Mimic; elsewise, she is roughly the same as she has been, besides the Shatter Orb (which I think is odd that they'd replicate Ryze's Spell Flux+Overload effect, but that's for another place and another time) and Sigil of Malice functionality. The only guaranteed burst damage is if she hangs close to an enemy she hit with Ethereal Chains - everything else depends on if she can land at least one of her abilities, before or after one another. But, you'd have to think; Wouldn't players, knowing that LeBlanc's Distortion+Shatter Orb combo could potentially deal heavy damage to them, play safer, away from their minions, to avoid it?

Talon has more counterplay than you're giving him credit for, but less than you think I'm trying to say he has. His Noxian Diplomacy does have issues, but I'm certain Riot will fix them in due time. The main point, though, is that his Noxian Diplomacy has interactivity for the opponent: They can play in such a way that Talon has to forfeit some form of mobility in exchange for raw damage. This could lead to Talon either leaping to a target to secure his Blade's End burst and bleed, or burning Assassin's Path on an otherwise negotiable exit point, or even burning a Flash just to reach his target for the bonus damage.

I also have a feeling that you're playing up his Assassin's Path to be "oh my god so OP", when in reality, it has its pros and cons. Yes, Talon can outmaneuver just about anyone. Yes, Talon has a lot more safety than people should want on him. No, it's not broken, it's just that nobody knows how to work around it yet. Hell, I'd bet there's people who've gotten really used to him after the update but still have yet to master the more subtle finesses of Assassin's Path, like how you can use it to sidle along terrain rather than jump over it for a speed boost.

As for Rengar: he unequivocally has the most balance issues out of the four major updates. I can't dispute that; the short cooldown and high damage of his new Savagery is inane, and his Bonetooth Necklace is now an example of "feast or feast", since Riot is largely against "feast or famine". They've got plenty of work to do on Rengar, but they are still going in the right direction. All of that damage that he has, from hard AD builds and a 4/5 Bonetooth Necklace, it's funneled into one target with his Thrill of the Hunt. Sure, it often plays out a lot more violently and a lot less single-targeted than Riot intended, but it's still a good direction to take, and it's been, what, two patches now? They likely have nearly enough information to start balancing him out and putting him to order.

Oh, but I aught not to forget; Because Rengar is a Jungler and gets the majority of his obscene damage through efficiently ganking all members of the enemy team, players against Rengar should effort themselves to be much, much more aware of the enemy Jungler. If you're not taking extra measures to protect yourself from Rengar, it's your own fault that he's cutting you down so easily.

Needless to say, I have great difficulty seeing your side.

Bouncemaster Zac1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Umbral Regent,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=olB19wAQ,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-01T10:24:36.211+0000)

Well, I'm glad that you're more willing to read the whole of a post than most people are, but I still can't see where you're coming from.

note: i quoted so I could read and reference as I replied but i edited it down so my post wouldn't be a mile long

 I'm always willing to discuss, it's just difficult on a place like the Forums because dogplies and downvote trains are popular. I do appreciate you taking the time to write all that out and be civil. God know I've been called a retard Bronzie enough. Anyway.

 LeBlanc's new mimic is actually really interesting and I thought it fit her thematically very well. I actually like her new R. The issue is, the rest of her kit stayed basically the same, as you said. Again, aside from Shatter Orb. She still has high mobility, and her Q is still targeted so it's common for her to W into range to Q-E, or if she's already in range Q first, then W to make sure her E is inescapable. It_ does_ take a bit longer than it used to but it's still incredibly difficult to do much of anything against other than "kill her first" due to her high mobility. Thankfully she can't cast Distortion twice anymore which was a major improvement. Not to mention, your statement that the counterplay to getting detonated through your own minions by Shatter Orb is "avoid the minions" is actually a concession to my point. The counterplay to LeBlanc is, still, _stay away from her_, which again is incredibly difficult. Choosing to play far enough away from the minions to avoid her means losing most of your farm, and in turn the lane and leaving her open to roam. There are almost no good options.

 Talon I'm on the fence about in general because there are things that seem better and things that seem worse. He's more manageable for enemy ranged Champions but a nightmare for other melees, especially in lane. It _seems_ like his new engage is more interactive than the old one but it really isn't. He's incredibly difficult to trade against because he can Q in, throw W, then walk back out because chasing after him to trade back means eating the return on Rake and getting hit for a bleed which, upsettingly enough is more threatening at two stacks than Darius's is at four. And if you are winning, he has free sustain to help him survive, or the most powerful roaming tool in the game if he wants to just say fuck it and leave. His deletion power is as high as it's always been, but now he also has escapes and is even better at picking victims out of teamfights.

 I'm really not seeing a single redeeming thing with Rengar's rework. His new Q does even more damage than the old, and to an area instead of one person. He only needs 4 ferocity stacks instead of 5 and gets one from his leap (if he's at 0, granted). He doesn't have to _hit_ his abilities to get stacks which is just dumb. 30%/42% bonus AD _for free_ was beyond a bad decision, it's a joke. A built-in cleanse on a Champion whose counter is supposed to be cc... what even? Why? His ult is easier to deal with yes, and I'm thankful for that, but even then with the free crit which benefits from crit items there are builds going around that let you delete carries without even needing to build Ferocity first. As for his strength being a jungler and needing to gank everyone at least once... What jungler doesn't? He only needs one kill per player. 5 kills is abysmally low on Rengar, honestly. And again, you yourself admit you need to take _extra_ measures to defend yourself from him compared to other junglers. On top of that, he's currently highly popular toplane due to his level 1 being genuinely impossible to lane against, and (I shit you not) I just today faced a tank support Rengar, and he was a nightmare. His base damage alone let him erase squishy targets (and he ended up with 200 AD from his Bonetooth + Runes anyway) and his W on a tank build makes him nigh-immortal. I actually saw him heal 2k hp in a single cast. It was disgusting.

I don't see how you can't understand my view here.

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