The three Stealth Ward limit.

Bouncemaster Zac·Jan 11, 2016·90 votes·3,111 views

Why is it still around? Due to the way the trinket charge system works, and the fact that normal Stealth Wards are gone, it's actually impossible to hit the three ward cap without a Sightstone. I feel it should be removed for a couple reasons: one, now that Stealth Wards are gone vision is back to being solely the Support's job in almost all cases; and with only one person warding, having a limit at all is just dumb. Furthermore, it incentivises making individual sacrifice for the good of the team: having tanks and bruisers sacrifice a slot for an extra Sightstone. As it is, the ward limit is nothing more than an insulting reminder that one of the most integral parts of the game were removed on a whim.

59 Comments

Aeolian MelodiesJan 11, 201639 votes

I was thinking the same thing. The only people who could go over the 3 wards limit are:

People with (assuming they place down all 4 wards before any is cleared)
People with who kept (aka, no one)
People with who place all 3 charges quickly, go back and place some more, and so forth

...

Actually, hang on. As I was writing this, I think I just found why the cap still exist. If the cap was removed, people would bring back the ward bitch meta, except now instead of buying a crapton of wards supports would just spend the entire game backing to fill Sightstone and spam wards, and holy shit I don't want that.

Keep the cap.

IcyPepperJan 11, 20161 votes

Agreed.

O.O

SaiannaJan 11, 201610 votes

Then how about some better refilling sighstone mechanic?

Like for example you get a charge: every x mob killed by your ally if you are close? every x assists every x steps every x seconds

It'd be better than visiting fountain, right?

DeathBurstJan 11, 20163 votes

Riot WANTS you to go back to fountain, otherwise the winning team's support could stay on the field almost permanently. If he is forced to back, this is the window of opportunity for the losing team to try and clear their opponent's vision or take a fight 4v5 if opponents are stupid enough to stay without their support.

SaiannaJan 12, 20161 votes

Good point, then how about the ideas I mentioned above + it works only on your side of map part?

DeathBurstJan 12, 20161 votes

I think it would be ok with what Riot wants vision to be, but this would be a change at the same time hard to implement and not really needed. So not worth the time spent on implementing it.

XIII VanitasJan 11, 20166 votes

You forgot those who have both item 3711 and item 3340 . Aka any jungler that buys Tracker's knife because literally everyone uses item 3363 and you don't need item 3341 to kill those wards (support's stealth wards from Sightstone are already getting stomped with the raptor buff).

TotalJerkJan 11, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IkzdM5AA,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-01-11T04:44:20.672+0000)

People with who kept (aka, no one)

I actually keep yellow when I'm certain no one on their team is warding properly, anyway.

ChaoticPineconeJan 12, 20161 votes

item 1410

SachabotJan 11, 201616 votes

The ward limit is now pointless, I do agree.

However, Riot had a passable reason for removing green wards, they simply never bothered to explain because they seem to think the community will figure it out. One would think they've caught on by now, but no. It's also kind of difficult given the current state of the game, but in context of the end season (Worlds patch and thereabouts) it made sense.

Anyways, Riot removed green wards because it was too easy for teams to just blanket half the map in vision when they got ahead. While this may not seem like a "bad thing," it removes a lot of the potential for ganks and out-maneuvers, and also makes it difficult to mount a comeback. That last point is moot right now, but I thought I'd throw it in for later consideration. You probably don't agree with the reason, but that's about all anyone can figure.

Dominick DestineJan 11, 201615 votes

I find your logic quite strong and your arguments to be solid.

That being said; AHAHAHAHAHAHA.... if their goal was to allow more comebacks to occur during that patch, way to go Riot, you effectively created the most snowbally meta in the entire history of League of Legends, with comebacks almost a thing of myth. Talk about epic failure.

SachabotJan 11, 20162 votes

I know. It works......when we're not in this preseason. It's really silly, and I think they're keeping quiet out of something akin to embarrassment. It should be useful later, but it's awful now.

Earthlord JazzJan 11, 20164 votes

{quoted}

The ward limit is now pointless, I do agree.

However, Riot had a passable reason for removing green wards, they simply never bothered to explain because they seem to think the community will figure it out. One would think they've caught on by now, but no. It's also kind of difficult given the current state of the game, but in context of the end season (Worlds patch and thereabouts) it made sense.

Anyways, Riot removed green wards because it was too easy for teams to just blanket half the map in vision when they got ahead. While this may not seem like a "bad thing," it removes a lot of the potential for ganks and out-maneuvers, and also makes it difficult to mount a comeback. That last point is moot right now, but I thought I'd throw it in for later consideration. You probably don't agree with the reason, but that's about all anyone can figure.

I can see this.

They could've done something else as well, perhaps making it so the more wards you have on the field, the more gold it takes to buy another ward.

Edit: But perhaps the biggest reason I am unsatisfied with that answer is because they're balancing the game towards professional players who occupy a fraction of the playerbase.

AMYS GRAVEJan 11, 20165 votes

The support and jungler (only if they take the warding machette upgrade) are the only ones who can meaningfully ward anymore. I actually despise playing other roles now because i can't ward when we need to.

Spaceman5pffJan 11, 20161 votes

Yeah but the warding machete upgrade almost isnt even worth it bc red smite is SO GOOD if you run into someone 1v1

AMYS GRAVEJan 11, 20162 votes

but with the warding upgrade you can pick your 1v1s instead of stumbling into them.

Spaceman5pffJan 11, 20161 votes

yeah but sometimes people jump you unexpectedly and when that happens, taking 20% reduced damage is nice

League of PotatoJan 12, 20161 votes

I don't think you fully grasp the concept of it being warded. You won't be getting unexpectedly jumped if you have their shit warded.

KaeblenJan 11, 20163 votes

so, I was really hoping for a good argument here, since I hate the ward limit too. but you said some really dumb stuff:

now that Stealth Wards are gone vision is back to being solely the Support's job in almost all cases.

If you play that way... how did you ever get to gold?

it incentivises making individual sacrifice for the good of the team

well, yeah man. It's a team game. do you still ks as support?

MelledoneusJan 11, 20166 votes

Ok, so you're tellling me that you build sightstone on a mid laner? On an AD carry? Sure, buying wards helped the team before, but spending 800 gold early on a champion WHOSE ENTIRE JOB IS TO DEAL DAMAGE seems a bit stupid to me.

If you play that way... how did you ever get to gold?

By being better than you at reading words.

well, yeah man. It's a team game. do you still ks as support?

I hope you realize everybody makes a sacrifice for the good of the team IN THEIR OWN WAY.

Top laner: Has to survive and prevent from dying, usually becoming an engager later in the game. They sacrifice safety for the good of their team, utilizing damage and CC to put pressure on the enemy team for your team to follow up on good plays.

Mid laner: Sacrifices time and farm to gank the two other lanes, and has the least safety during the laning phase. Assassins risk it all to take out key targets while mages bring utility and teamfight presence overall.

Jungler: Sacrifices farm, gold, and a summoner spell/item slot to help the team push, fight, and take objectives.

Support: Sacrifices damage and mobility for utility, usually ending up behind because their carries ideally get all the farm and kills. Also dedicated to keep important pathways warded, and dragon is an objective the support usually keeps tabs on with vision.

ADC: Sacrifices survivability and early game power in favor of a mid-game or late game power surge. They are fragile and almost always in constant danger, but help their team whittle down tanks and take out high priority targets.

Spaceman5pffJan 11, 20161 votes

I would argue that the red side toplaner has the least safety, as that t1 and the blue side bot t1 are the easiest towers in the game to dive, but at least blue side bot as 2 ppl to work with

League of PotatoJan 12, 20162 votes

Okay but in top lane you get ganked from 3 directions (all of which can easily be avoided/warded, without putting you through any trouble) in front of you, on your side, or behind you (and very rarely behind you), while in mid lane you can get ganked from multiple people from legitimately every direction, and there's legitimately no way you can ward it all by yourself to keep yourself safe. The only way to be the safest in mid lane is to hug your turret and have your jungler camp your lane. If you plan to play aggressive, you are putting yourself in the position to get fucked from every angle.

Spaceman5pffJan 12, 20161 votes

When top is in a neatral position with creeps, red side toplaner has 2 positions he can be ganked from between him and his turret, and nearly 2x the distance to his turret as mid.

League of PotatoJan 13, 20161 votes

[deleted]

Spaceman5pffJan 13, 20161 votes

I would love to have a civil discussion about this but that is clearly not a goal we have in common. I think you are on the boards for the wrong reasons.

AninLegions777Jan 12, 20161 votes

Lool? Mid lane has 6 possible gank points and that's besides the razorbeaks sections. It's the riskiest lane in the game.

Spaceman5pffJan 12, 20161 votes

It is the shortest lane in the game? You are ALWAYS closer to your turret? Just ward one side and HUG it? ROFL

AninLegions777Jan 12, 20161 votes

Ward one side? Lool. Have you seen the vision changes? Hug one side (I'm guessing you mean the wide brush) and they can come from the top or bottom of that brush. It doesn't matter. They can gank from FoW. It's simply impossible to know where they are coming from except you ward everywhere which is impossible with the ward limit so good luck.

KaeblenJan 12, 20161 votes

Ok, so you're tellling me that you build sightstone on a mid laner? On an AD carry? Sure, buying wards helped the team before, but spending 800 gold early on a champion WHOSE ENTIRE JOB IS TO DEAL DAMAGE seems a bit stupid to me.

there is only one role in this game which 'has only one job', and that is the marksman. dealing damage is great, but that's not really the question. You are projecting onto me an opinion that is obviously ludicrous. If your best argument is to claim that I have made statements I never have, please stop now.

By being better than you at reading words.

do not begin your argument with blind insults. the point of my statement is that there is no justification for non-support players to not ward. Assuming an itemization change relegates warding solely to supports is a foolish claim. If you really think that that is what has occurred, you should be asking for a change that makes other players able to ward as well, NOT a change that allows the support to do it solo.

I hope you realize everybody makes a sacrifice for the good of the team IN THEIR OWN WAY.

Your initial statement "it incentivises making individual sacrifice for the good of the team" implies that you believe that YOU particularly should never have to make sacrifices on behalf of someone else. I was of the hope that such a claim certainly could not have been your intent--your response (more specifically, your progressive arrogance) makes me wonder.

Even so, you have listed many of the items which each role is capable of and expected to do. You frame this as a group of "sacrifices" but really they are just descriptions of each meta-enforced position. Ideally, it would be possible--or rather, some players believe that it would be ideal--for a blurring or mixing of roles to never occur. This is not actually possible.

The mid laner sometimes buys in order to aid in vision.
The top laner sometimes becomes the primary damager.
Mages provide CC for peel.
Some supports are forced to become the primary engage for their teams.
The jungler can take the role of mage, tank, brusier, assassin, or even marksman, but is still relegated to 'putting out fires' across the map.
I am sure you are aware of all of these things already.

Once again, my second statement "well, yeah man [you have to make individual sacrifices]. It's a team game. do you still ks as support?" is intended to underline something that everyone already knows. That is, if you want to win, you cannot always do what benefits solely yourself. sometimes the mid laner, adc, or jungler NEEDS to ward. Even if it were possible for a single player to do so, it is an error to think that they should, or to think that they should have to.

#You should already know this. so stop claiming that I've said things I haven't.

MelledoneusJan 12, 20164 votes

I hope you realize that you were implying that mid laners and top laners should buy sightstone. Because that is the only way to get more wards as a laner.

Also, the OP stated:

now that Stealth Wards are gone vision is back to being solely the Support's job in almost all cases.

Tell me where he even implied that this is how the meta is SUPPOSED to be. This isn't an opinion he's throwing out there, it's pure unadulterated fact. He's not trying to say, as you imply, that he THINKS that supports should be solely in charge of warding. He states that now that stealth wards are gone, vision is being pushed onto the supports once again, since there are very little options for vision control when it comes to laners that aren't supports.

I could go on about how the rest of your statements are completely false, but you defeated your own argument before I even started.

Aeolian MelodiesJan 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

so, I was really hoping for a good argument here, since I hate the ward limit too. but you said some really dumb stuff:

If you play that way... how did you ever get to gold?

well, yeah man. It's a team game. do you still ks as support?

But he's correct, with the current shitty state of yellow trinket, and most non-ADC people still not going to blue trinket, the support's Sightstone is the major part of a team's vision, unfortunately.

KaeblenJan 12, 20161 votes

Yes. his (Tekkaras) solution may in fact be correct. I still think his explanations are very poor.

Hedgehog HustlerJan 12, 20161 votes

Actually, not just Sightstone, since it's possible for supports now to start support item-1 hp pot-vision ward. Junglers with massive sustain like Warwick or Mundo (?) can start with a vision ward, too. Basically, because of how little it costs, unless your lane is going badly pretty much anyone can pick up a vision ward and stick it on blue buff or baron pit.

LostFr0stJan 11, 20163 votes

they are buffing the trinket next patch to late-game be what it was last season in terms of charging (90s):

"Warding Totem Recharge time lowered to 180 - 90 seconds based on level from 180-120 seconds." --- Surrender @ 20

(still lasts 60-120 seconds though)

Phoenix Kotori Jan 11, 20163 votes

item 3711 exists just a reminder because seem to forget junglers get more wards than 3 due it.

With no cap Quinn item 1326 item 3711 , post 20 mins repeated backs R zooms drops wards & lights up the entire map which is what rito wants to prevent.

Valhalla RisingJan 11, 20162 votes

this is actually genius.

would make sightstone+upgrade and trackers knife(with yellow trink) much better, as they should be.

it would probably make the vision perfectly balanced in this game, as I feel it's missing just that little bit of vision a change like this would provide.

S H A Y C 0Jan 11, 20162 votes

vision is back to being solely the Support's job

Back??? How can something return to a place it has never been??? You make me sad sir [zombie-nunu-tears]

insaiyanbaccaJan 11, 20163 votes

you must not have been around when supports could get reported for building anything that wasn't a green ward. it was a while ago i think season 2-3ish iirc but it was no limit on how many wards you could carry or place and no sightstone then so supports literally were just walking ward bots.

AkeneroJan 13, 20161 votes

Yeah, supports would LITERALLY have 30 green wards in inventory

And good god did the preseason 3 revolve around sightstone entirely

Aeolian MelodiesJan 12, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=ToiletteOfDoom ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IkzdM5AA,comment-id=000b,timestamp=2016-01-11T21:54:51.382+0000)

Back??? How can something return to a place it has never been??? You make me sad sir [zombie-nunu-tears]

face it season 1-2-3 outside of high elo only the support warded

VargisJan 13, 20161 votes

I remember walking around with maybe one finished item, boots, and two full stacks of wards. That was basically my life and where all my money went back in those dark, dark days of being a support. That and fighting over placed wards.

High5Jan 12, 20162 votes

Trolling makes me more sad than people who want changes because they don't understand the current system.

SukishooJan 12, 20162 votes

I'd like you to meet item 3363 , usually the ADCs best friend as they should make sure to upgrade into one. You can use that to have virtually unlimited wards (yes, they are visible and have one health) but they still cause a major source of vision. So saying that just because we can't directly buy Green Wards anymore, doesn't mean that vision will be up to the support.

Plus the rest of the team should usually have item 3340 , so they can still effectively place wards.

morris1Jan 11, 20161 votes

No cap is crazy, maybe it should be increased if you buy the sightstone, like +2 active ward cap, but the Sightstone would still provide 3 charges per back so you need to go back and forth to make use of it.

Aeolian MelodiesJan 12, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moraru Maurice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IkzdM5AA,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-01-11T15:11:14.144+0000)

No cap is crazy, maybe it should be increased if you buy the sightstone, like +2 active ward cap, but the Sightstone would still provide 3 charges per back so you need to go back and forth to make use of it.

do that and the support game becomes constant backing to fill the stone

XLucaXBlightXJan 11, 20161 votes

item 2303 item 2302 item 2301

Andrysek57Jan 12, 20161 votes

yes is actually useless :)

SteelflameJan 12, 20161 votes

Honestly, vision trinkets were too powerful last season. You had the ability, just on the trinket, to maintain 100% uptime on 3 wards.

So nerf those. Only now, you also removed the ability to buy vision wards, so now we can't add in any. Meanwhile, they buffed the sweeper so hard as to not even be funny for ward clearing, while also removing it's ability to handle stealth champs and giving it a bush-check functionality...