I've never seen a game where mages build health almost like a primary stat.

xxxMadLionxxx·May 23, 2016·37 votes·3,055 views

I know mages need defense, but giving them ample health is not correct. Every mage now rushes or and continue to build health base ap items.

Mages are no longer squishy, instead they can substitute as off tanks. I think this is stupid, because they are performing the same function as an off tank.

They do damage, provide utility and soak up some damage, which is the same thing an off tanks does. There need to be a more clear line between the classes.

Mages need more unique defense items that appeal to mages and not make them off tanks. Items that have unique actives like zhonyas where they are still squishy and appealing to assassins as kill priority.

As it stands, Assassin are ignoring mages as a primary kill, leaving them unchecked to do huge damage and provide lots of utility. If you look at any other game, mages do not build health

Down vote all you want, but I'm right, Mages in any other game do not build health as a priority.

78 Comments

FovereMay 23, 201617 votes

Mages need to survive assassins with full tank builds that can outlive their burst and chunk them down.

Assassins build tank to survive back line dives --> mages build health to survive tank assassins.

A Superb VillainMay 23, 20164 votes

It is a vicious cycle.

Hyrum GraffMay 23, 20168 votes

The problem with this post is that it's not specific enough. There are three types of mages. I'll quote from the dev blog:

Burst Mages

Burst Mages aim to single out vulnerable targets by locking them down and following up with a devastating barrage of damage from range. Burst Mages struggle heavily against beefier targets who can shrug off their initial spike of damage.

Battle Mages

Battle Mages get into the middle of the fray, seeking to wreak havoc upon the entire enemy team with their overwhelming sustained area damage. Due to their relatively short (but not melee) combat ranges and the need to burn down their opponents over time, Battle Mages have significant defensive capabilities that range from sustaining endlessly to literally defying death for a short period of time.

Artillery Mages

Artillery Mages are the masters of range, and they leverage that advantage to whittle down their opponents over time from great distances. In turn, Artillery Mages are severely punished when enemies finally succeed in closing in on them, due to their extreme fragility and limited mobility.

Burst and Artillery Mages shouldn't be tanky; Battle Mages should.

Burst Mages are kind of like ranged assassins. The challenge for normal melee assassins in killing their target is getting close without getting cc'd. The challenge for ~~ranged assassins~~ burst mages is hitting their CC spell and getting off their combo before they get blown up.

It says Artillery Mages are supposed to be squishy right in the description: "extreme fragility."

It says Battle Mages are supposed to be tanky in the description, as well: "significant defensive capabilities"

Maybe you're just seeing a lot of battle mages, and think that because it has "mage" in the title they're supposed to be squishy? I dunno.

If you want to make an argument I'll buy,

pick out a champion (or better, a few champions)
identify which class you think they are
- some champs are on the line, like Viktor, who's a battle mage with some burst elements
tell me an item build you see on that champion that makes them tankier than they are supposed to be.

Battlecast SonaMay 23, 20168 votes

Viktor is almost entirely battle mage now unless you hit a sick stuncage to get both parts of E - his burst damage with ult was nerfed intentionally to make him more of a sustained damage/skirmishing/"battle" type mage. His burst is still considerable, it's just harder to pull off since the second E damage is delayed by more now

AlüeMay 23, 20164 votes

Op still has a few points he us hitting correctly somewhat. As an xerath main, building health items isn't uncommon.

Hyrum GraffMay 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Op still has a few points he us hitting correctly somewhat. As an xerath main, building health items isn't uncommon.

But do you lose something for building them, something important? That's the real question. If the answer is yes, I think it's fine that you build health items sometimes.

I build randuins on my adcs sometimes, as a second defensive item, if the enemy has a fed bruiser or assassin and my team doesn't have enough cc or tank to stop them. This isn't a bad thing. It means I give up a lot of my scaling. But that's a choice I made because I'd rather deal low damage than deal no damage because I got popped.

AlüeMay 24, 20163 votes

Tbh not really, I feel like the trade offs help his play style even more

LordGeovanniMay 25, 20161 votes

Lose what ROA and Rylia's Crystal Sceptre has 100 ap they aren't trading damage and are getting tanky and utility at the same time.

Hyrum GraffMay 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Lose what ROA and Rylia's Crystal Sceptre has 100 ap they aren't trading damage and are getting tanky and utility at the same time.

Lose the 10% MS and damage proc of luden's.

Lose the cdr and grievous wounds of morello.

Lose the shit ton of ap from deathcap.

Now, I asked if you lose something IMPORTANT. It might be that the things above just aren't important enough compared to the hp and survivability of rylais and ROA, in which case the trade-off is not meaningful and you're just gonna build the tanky items every time.

I'm not arguing one way or another, I'm trying to provide a framework for how to make the decision, because if we don't agree on how to make the decision we can argue for days and not get anywhere.

LordGeovanniMay 25, 20161 votes

Nope. because mages still get all of those with ROA and Rylia's they trade nothing and still have space for boots. or do we only have 3 item slots now.

Hyrum GraffMay 26, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Nope. because mages still get all of those with ROA and Rylia's they trade nothing and still have space for boots. or do we only have 3 item slots now.

item 3135 item 3001 item 3157 item 3146 item 3030 item 3152

Again, I'm not saying that these losses matter. Maybe those 6 items are worthless and it's ALWAYS better to buy item 3027 item 3116 item 3089 item 3165 item 3285 item 3020 -------> not meaningful

The point is that there IS a trade-off. The question remains: is that trade-off meaningful?

5050BSMay 23, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ojIIhXL4,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-05-23T14:20:23.021+0000)

The problem with this post is that it's not specific enough. There are three types of mages. I'll quote from the dev blog:

Burst and Artillery Mages shouldn't be tanky; Battle Mages should.

Burst Mages are kind of like ranged assassins. The challenge for normal melee assassins in killing their target is getting close without getting cc'd. The challenge for ~~ranged assassins~~ burst mages is hitting their CC spell and getting off their combo before they get blown up.

It says Artillery Mages are supposed to be squishy right in the description: "extreme fragility."

It says Battle Mages are supposed to be tanky in the description, as well: "significant defensive capabilities"

Maybe you're just seeing a lot of battle mages, and think that because it has "mage" in the title they're supposed to be squishy? I dunno.

If you want to make an argument I'll buy,

pick out a champion (or better, a few champions)

identify which class you think they are

some champs are on the line, like Viktor, who's a battle mage with some burst elements

tell me an item build you see on that champion that makes them tankier than they are supposed to be.

This is ONLY if you are not vs a Mobile Assassin or Mobile Bruiser. You can Be REALLY far away from a Yasuo and not be far enough.

Kempachi TaichouMay 23, 20165 votes

I will disagree with one thing... "Mages in any other game do not build health as a priority." They do more that armor HP!

The items you describe are two of the best and most efficient AP items in the game in terms of cost and efficiency. They would be a priority for any AP based champ outside of a tank where they would be "luxury" items.

What do you think mages should be building? Abyssal maybe and Rabadon's but those are 3rd to 5th items at best.

xxxMadLionxxxMay 23, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kempachi Taichou,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ojIIhXL4,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-05-23T12:04:01.041+0000)

I will disagree with one thing... "Mages in any other game do not build health as a priority." They do more that armor HP!

The items you describe are two of the best and most efficient AP items in the game in terms of cost and efficiency. They would be a priority for any AP based champ outside of a tank where they would be "luxury" items.

What do you think mages should be building? Abyssal maybe and Rabadon's but those are 3rd to 5th items at best.

Thats the point. Pure mage items are not as appealing, and this whole health ap item is corrupting what a mage should be. Squishy glass canon

macromiteMay 23, 20163 votes

is it worse than lifesteal? no. it's about the same, it's just better for burst whereas lifesteal is better for sustained.

xxxMadLionxxxMay 23, 20164 votes

{quoted}

is it worse than lifesteal? no. it's about the same, it's just better for burst whereas lifesteal is better for sustained.

Here's the difference between lifesteal. You need to do damage to get lifesteal, hence, and assassin can still burst you down before you get a chance to attack.

Mages however always have that health available at the start of a fight, hence they are hard to burst down making them similar to tanks

Battlecast SonaMay 23, 20166 votes

it's the tradeoff.

Mages start with high HP but have very limited tools to get it back outside of their kit (so Vlad and Swain don't count, clearly).

ADCs have lower HP but have lifesteal.

Mages are harder to burst because before they were WAY TOO EASY. You take a class that (generally) has maybe 1 slow escape or no escapes and put them in a game with Lucian and Zed, they NEED HP to survive fights, because there's no way for them to refill their HP total (aside from spamming spells with catalyst I guess...?)

Meanwhile, if Ezreal or Lucian or Graves gets engaged, they have at least 1 mobility spell with a short CD, and they have lifesteal to top them up from extra damage. As Viktor I have stuncage and Zhonya's, if I built it (and of course flash). Viktor has way less options than someone like Zed, or Ezreal, or Lucian on what to do in this scenario, and so the extra HP can help keep him alive for a few extra seconds to make that play to get out, since his only option really is to outplay his opponent.

xxxMadLionxxxMay 23, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Battlecast Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ojIIhXL4,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-23T14:34:59.007+0000)

it's the tradeoff.

Mages start with high HP but have very limited tools to get it back outside of their kit (so Vlad and Swain don't count, clearly).

ADCs have lower HP but have lifesteal.

Mages are harder to burst because before they were WAY TOO EASY. You take a class that (generally) has maybe 1 slow escape or no escapes and put them in a game with Lucian and Zed, they NEED HP to survive fights, because there's no way for them to refill their HP total (aside from spamming spells with catalyst I guess...?)

Meanwhile, if Ezreal or Lucian or Graves gets engaged, they have at least 1 mobility spell with a short CD, and they have lifesteal to top them up from extra damage. As Viktor I have stuncage and Zhonya's, if I built it (and of course flash). Viktor has way less options than someone like Zed, or Ezreal, or Lucian on what to do in this scenario, and so the extra HP can help keep him alive for a few extra seconds to make that play to get out, since his only option really is to outplay his opponent.

The point I'm trying to make is, mages in general should have more utility type defense items like Zhonyas, not a broad range of health items than make the function like tanks because it's blurs the line between tanks and mages.

They need more items that do more mage like defense activation. For example, summon a pet that can block a skill shot. Creative type of defense mechanics, not just health.

Battlecast SonaMay 23, 20161 votes

There are no "items like Zhonya's" that would have a really impactful defensive option for mages though. I understand what you're saying (add utility survivability) but the options thematically are very limited, especially with the abuse case problem of tanks making the item if the utility is good (HI TANK EKKO). Adding HP is safer from a game design standpoint because it doesn't add any extra burden of knowledge to the ENEMY team - yes, you have more HP, but other than that your defensive options are very much the same (aside from Protobelt, perhaps).

Something like "summon a pet that can block a skillshot" will never be purchased unless it's overpowered I can tell you right now - because it's SO very situationally useful, and then pretty much useless in every other scenario unless the pet itself is overpowered, pushing the item into "offensive item" category.

It's easy to say "make more utility-oriented defensive mage items", but when you start talking about it... do you REALLY want mages to have more than just 1 Zhonya's-type defensive item? Do you REALLY want to start playing against a Viktor that isn't building item 3027 item 3116 but instead has a bunch of resistances and active items that make it super hard to kill them? I would rather not have to deal with mages being able to option-select into decked out supports that do more damage thanksverymuch.

DarkRitualMay 23, 20161 votes

An item with stats like Zeke's Herald would be decent as a defense option, as long as it has an attractive passive/active.

KING 5HARKMay 23, 20161 votes

Mages build(like ADCs) for a 6 Item build. An Item with shitty stats has no place in there

LordGeovanniMay 25, 20161 votes

and because they do this post was made because they get to build like adcs with a bunch of bs defense and the same could be said about Phantom Dancers damage reduction passive

VekknaMay 23, 20169 votes

When mages get utility-oriented defense items people bitch about it being OP. Zhonya's and Spooky Ghosts come to mind, and both have been nerfed repeatedly to make them less desirable, less efficient, or just weaker.

This goes the other way, too. Like why doesn't item 3048 have a passive shield proc like Sterak's and Maw? Why is item 3123 GW stronger than item 3165 on an 800g item? Why does item 3812 exist while WoTA was deleted from the game? Why is the % hp damage on item 3153 SOOOO much stronger than item 3151 ?

SkiasMay 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

When mages get utility-oriented defense items people bitch about it being OP. Zhonya's and Spooky Ghosts come to mind, and both have been nerfed repeatedly to make them less desirable, less efficient, or just weaker.

This goes the other way, too. Like why doesn't have a passive shield proc like Sterak's and Maw? Why is GW stronger than on an 800g item? Why does exist while WoTA was deleted from the game? Why is the % hp damage on SOOOO much stronger than ?

Well yeah, AD items were definitely stronger and more cost efficient in the remake. The AP items didnt nearly come out so well.

LordGeovanniMay 25, 20161 votes

seraphs has an active can be activated when needed and shield is far stronger and the rest of the items go with mages play style where you go in cast spells and back off to a safe distance until you can come in and do more damage. I was asking myself jsut yesterday why gromp doesn't re apply when hit again and do damage immediately when re applied being its first tick much like giving red buff on hit damage or blue buff 15% rabadons passive

LordGeovanniMay 25, 20161 votes

spooky ghost was a support intended item and effect and until it became support oritentated no one used it much

LordGeovanniMay 25, 20161 votes

life steal specifically for safe ranged carries need to be nipped in the but. safe and ranged but in a fight life steal gives you more active health than the tank most adcs haing cc and mobility to kite too

KING 5HARKMay 23, 20162 votes

ADCs arent Squishy either, they got Deaths dance, steraks and PD, Mages only get HP(which btw is way worse than reduction from those Items if you dont have resistance Items)

Battlecast SonaMay 23, 20165 votes

Some mages do need to be tanky. Saying "mages don't need" like all mages are the same is your first problem.

Characters like Vlad, Swain, Malz, Viktor, etc have medium to short ranges and need to be in range of damage basically at all times to contribute, so having HP pools is very beneficial. There are still plenty of mages that don't stack HP, and an assassin will probably still be able to kill a mage even with RoA and Rylai because they probably have under 100 armor, meaning their eHP is still pretty low.

I play a lot of mages and while I do think that HP is more accessible as a whole, I don't think it's had the effects you list (assassins still definitely kill me, I just get an opportunity to actually play while they're doing it instead of instantly disappearing).

ZeeWolfZMay 23, 20164 votes

Swain

item 3027 item 3065 item 3116 item 3020 item 3151 item 3157 By this time GG

LaserDeathBladeMay 25, 20161 votes

Or get Hextech GLP and win immediately

IcyPepperMay 23, 20163 votes

Considering how effective health works, I think it's fine as their primary defensive stat.

They're more like bruisers than off-tanks, though, due to how all that works.

Voluug13May 24, 20163 votes

Pseudo offtank mages building like offtank mages is nothing new.

That has been the norm for Malzahar, Swain, Annie, pre-rework1 Cass, Lissandra, Rumble, Vlad, Ryze, etc. (Not) Coincidently the anti-assassin mages.

And I seriously doubt Syndra, Lux, Orianna and the other ''old Athene'' mages are building off tank. Their kits arent made for it, and they dont need to either. If they are, they are doing actual trade offs for said tankyness.

In LoL, mage =/= squishy glass canon exclusively, and hasnt been since... ever tbh. Ryze for example. Dont shove your personal belief of what a mages is into a game that hasnt been using that for its entire existance.

Down vote all you want, but I'm right, Mages in any other game do not build health as a priority.

Probably because mages in other games either dont scale (DOTA), have no items (HotS) or have all the same HP pools to other classes except tanks (WoW).

And lets be honest: with Dominik's AD have an advantage over HP-bags with no armor like off-tank Mages are (due to the bad resists AP items have, specially armor).

Dies to WolvesMay 25, 20161 votes

have all the same HP pools to other classes except tanks (WoW).

Warlocks though

Voluug13May 25, 20161 votes

Only because of a talent, and only because said talent means the loss of their demon pet.

Dies to WolvesMay 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Only because of a talent, and only because said talent means the loss of their demon pet.

That's EVEN MORE HP, but they are naturally tankier. Their stamina buff (blood pact) increases their own stamina by 20% (and everyone else's by 10%). Even without the talent, if you compare a mage and a warock's HP pool, the warlock as a lot more health.

That said I agree with your points in general, just pointing out that even in a "mage is squishy" game, there are exceptions :P

Voluug13May 25, 20161 votes

Blood Pact was removed more that 3 years ago. It was replaced by Dark Intent in patch 5.2 because it didnt match gameplay-wise with a caster and no one was using it due to being attached to the imp minion.

The talent I speak of, Demonic Sacrifice, is simply giving you HP for the loss of the defensive qualities of having a demon pet, like Soul Link. Not because Warlocks are meant to be tankier.

Also, when I mean everyone but tank specs have the same hp pool, I mean everyone. Not just casters. Also, some casters are extremely resilient, like Elemental Shaman.

Dies to WolvesMay 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Blood Pact was removed more that 3 years ago. It was replaced by Dark Intent in patch 5.2 because it didnt match gameplay-wise with a caster and no one was using it due to being attached to the imp minion.

The talent I speak of, Demonic Sacrifice, is simply giving you HP for the loss of the defensive qualities of having a demon pet, like Soul Link. Not because Warlocks are meant to be tankier.

Also, when I mean everyone but tank specs have the same hp pool, I mean everyone. Not just casters. Also, some casters are extremely resilient, like Elemental Shaman.

Dude I main a warlock. They still have blood pact, it's a full on passive now. Go check it out. They have dark intent (castable buff) for spellpower + multistrike, and passive aura bloodpact for stamina (which further increases their own stamina by an extra 10%). If you notice, even Demonology warlocks (which I play) have increased HP pools, and they CAN'T sacrifice their pet.

Voluug13May 25, 20161 votes

Man, Wowpedia needs to update its whole thing. Havent played a lock since MoP.

Anyways, my point still stands. Warlocks dont build for health, they only have a 10% extra stamina passive. Unlike LoL mages, who many have built HP since ever and are NOT squishy magicians.

ZT XperimentorMay 25, 20163 votes

They can't function as mages anymore since riot nerfed most of their core items, ontop of removing all sustainability; nor did riot address the problems they have fighting assassins either. Assassins should be focusing the marksman anyway, not the mage; you know, the guy that'll decimate your base in seconds if left alone.

Darth ValerMay 23, 20162 votes

item 3001 item 3157 item 3116 item 3027 item 3026 item 3020

Legit build EleGiggle

Hyrum GraffMay 23, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darth Valer,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ojIIhXL4,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-05-23T12:37:06.843+0000)

Legit build EleGiggle

item 3285 item 3089 item 3135 item 3020 item 3165 item 3102

70 more AP than yours before deathcap passive, 210 more AP after (330 vs 400->540)
Luden's proc for more burst
More magic pen
More MS

Yes, your build is much tankier and you'll survive much better than I will. But my point is that there's a trade-off you're making to get that, namely damage.

Your build is more suited for a battle mage. Mine is more suited for a burst mage. An artillery mage probably wants a build with a bit more mana (seraph's instead of luden's, maybe).

Jungle BrungusMay 23, 20162 votes

I mean they think it's ok for a champ to be incredibly tanky, have massive cc, be incredibly mobile, and deal tons damage...I don't think they exactly know how roles are supposed to be balanced.

KING 5HARKMay 23, 20161 votes

Mages are neither Mobile nor does 400HP make you "Tanky"

Jungle BrungusMay 23, 20162 votes

didn't say mages said champs? refering to Ekko Fizz with item 3751 item 3025 item 3001

5050BSMay 23, 20163 votes

Or Akali Blitzcrank Braum DrMundo Fiora Gnar Garen Gragas JarvanIV Jax LeeSin Malphite Maokai Nautilus Olaf Rammus Renekton Sejuani Shyvana Singed Sion TahmKench Thresh Trundle Udyr Vladimir Volibear Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao Zac

Vik4prezMay 24, 20162 votes

Im not really sure where youre coming from with this. Ive never seen a normal mage build more than 1 or MAYBE 2 AP items with hp on them specifically because you have to sacrifice damage output in the mid game to acquire them. Mages having an extra 400-700 hp hardly makes them tanky considering those items don't provide extra MR or armor, so against other mages or assassins youll still end up taking huge amounts of damage from them. Youre talking about a mage surviving for maybe another 1-2 auto attacks/spells come mid/late game, which is pretty negligible.

I main Viktor , who in my opinion is the kind of champion that you would want to build pseudo-tanky on, but because of how he works with items you really cant afford to. By the time you can afford to invest in an item like item 3027 or a item 3030 , its too late in the game to sacrifice the damage from something like a item 3089 or item 3135 to justify buying an item with health on it.

Mages don't build health as a priority outside of a few special cases like Vladimir and Swain , whose kits are specifically designed around having large health pools/tankiness.

SlaktarTaskenMay 24, 20162 votes

Stack damage meta since season 6 and mastery changes, since damage is so extremely rampant ofc tankyness will become a priority, tankyness trumps killing potential as it makes the latter more plausable, surviving to kill, especially if your main defensive component isn't high damage long range autos or very long range skills. It's reverse (being killed) also becomes less plausable.

Imo, the entire mastery revamp has lead to this and is just another one of those issues spawned for the sake of change. But whatever, not as if I'm playing League so it shouldn't matter to me. :(

Papa SlothyMay 25, 20162 votes

mages aren't that tanky...

Photos of GhostsMay 23, 20161 votes

I agree, except that I think it's a symptom of them being weak. Also, it depends which mages you're talking about. Swain Vladimir Ryze Chogath Gragas Karthus are supposed to be Battlemages, the AP ranged counterpart to Juggernauts. The're supposed to have 4k health.