Why the assassin rework didn't make assassins viable again.

Zerenza··32 votes·3,374 views

Assassins need to be in the mid lane, against ranged opponents constantly. Riot thinks it's fair because mages are immobile but if you've never fought against a mage with an assassin and gotten poked down by auto's for 5 minutes making you have to back early and basically lose your lane then you have no right to say it's fair.

Assassins are forced to always play from behind because of the massive difference between range and melee in lane, they miss CS very frequently because if they get to close the mage will unload on them and kill them. This makes Assassins goal of dominating mid game almost impossible because of how far behind they are compared to everyone else.

If we go to Leagueofgraphs we can see a trend, Ranged Assassins such as Leblance and Ahri have these winrates

Leblance: 50% Ahri: 53%

Along with pure mages that have these

Annie: 51% Vel'koz: 52% Viktor: 51% Brand: 52% Syndra: 50% Kennen: 50% Twisted Fate: 51% Cassiopeia: 50% Ziggs: 53% Xerath: 51% Swain: 52% Anivia: 50% Lux: 50%

The mages that don't have above a 50% winrate have been nerfed, have poor match ups against other mages, or simply are too hard to play.

Ryze(hard to play): 45% Vlad(nerfed): 45% Heimerdinger(poor midlane matchups): 48% Orianna(hard to play): 49%

But melee mids have this winrate

Katarina: 47% Zed: 47% Talon: 46% Fizz: 47% Diana: 49% Ekko: 48% Akali: 46%

So basically if your a melee mid laner you're less likely to win against pretty much any ranged mid laner except the nerfed ones. The assassin reworks aren't the issue here, it's being melee in general that's the issue, look at jayce's winrate up top he's winning because he's ranged against a melee champion. We need to include a mastery that only melee champs can take that makes it easier to farm or an item that all melee champs can start with that makes it easier to farm, not everyone can build tiamat and be fine ya know especially when it comes to AP mid laner's. We need a change that gives melee champs a chance against ranged match ups, the goal isn't to be able to kill them, but to be able to farm on equal playing field with them.

Edit!!!!!!

Okay so just had an idea, what if tiamat actually built into a melee only AP item, that way the AP Melee mid laner's could still build tiamat and have an AP alternative. I think that would have been a GREAT addition during the assassin rework and it is preseason so hopefully riot consider's it. It would definitely help the AP Melee's and would certainly be a nice addition as long as we keep the stats it gives in check (don't want it to give HP for example cause we don't them being to tanky.)

93 Comments

JedenVojak29 votes

The assassin update was a nerf, plain and simple.

They wanted to slow down the burst of every assassin in the game. It worked.

They wanted to nerf buying armor pen early. It worked.

Now assassins aren't assassins anymore, and lo and behold their win rates plummet. Their win rates will continue to be low until they get these arbitrary delays in their abilities fixed.

DeathBurst7 votes

To the contrary, now that they have these arbitrary delays, they can be given power elsewhere.

The update was a nerf short term, I do not deny that. But long term, it makes the class balance-able, and they WILL get buffs. Come back in 2 to 3 months, and you'll see.

Zerenza10 votes

I don't think they need any number's buffs or the mages need any nerfs, i really think they just need a way to farm properly in mid lane against all the ranged match ups. Not a safe way just a way so they don't keep having to give up 3 CS every wave just so they don't die.

I also do not want their reworks reverted because, with the exception of rengar, they all did pretty well in bringing the assassins up to date.

DeathBurst2 votes

Oh, my bad, I mistakenly took your OP for a whine post. I was tricked by the "again" at the end, as in "the Assassins were viable before the update, now they aren't anymore.", but now I understand what you meant.

Yeah, farming as a melee versus a ranged has always been hard, but I'm not sure giving melee champs a way to farm safely is the right solution, especially for the Mages versus Assassins problem. I think Assassins are supposed to compensate their lower CS by having more impact on side lanes than Mages, and getting back in gold (or even ahead) from there. I may be wrong.

I mainly play Top, and from what I experienced there, if they put a ranged champ top to bully me, they are often sacrificing their front-line for doing that, and they pay the price when team-fights come. (Gnar is an exception. I hate Gnar. I'm glad his playrate is so low at my ELO.)

Zerenza4 votes

The assassin rework's intention was to make assassins less reliant on snowballing a game, and make them useful to their team by removing the feast or famine playstyle they promote that makes them only useful when ahead. The main reason it's so hard to play assassins is due to the fact that the assassin rework didn't fix that, they didn't get anything new to help them in lane against mages which was a massive reason you had to get kills in order to succeed.

Assassins will never be viable so long as they can't succeed in the laning phase by CSing better than their opponent. Most of what makes a laner, especially a mid laner isn't their kill pressure but their ability to CS while poking. Mages can poke endlessly against melee opponents, meaning they zone off the melee champions and farm freely so the melee champion has to rely on killing them to get ahead, and sometimes that's just not reliable. It forces the assassin to either kill or be killed and that's the feast or famine playstyle that riot was trying to remove.

My secondary is top lane and i hate to fight things like Quinn, Jayce, Teemo and especially Gnar just due to how hard it is to CS against them. Good thing is most of the time they do sacrifice a tank except in high ELO where the jungler or support is a tank instead.

DeathBurst2 votes

Assassins will never be viable so long as they can't succeed in the laning phase by CSing better than their opponent. [...] so the melee champion has to rely on killing them to get ahead, and sometimes that's just not reliable. It forces the assassin to either kill or be killed and that's the feast or famine playstyle that riot was trying to remove.

There were other mechanisms put in place to alleviate the feast or famine issue. Assassins are still very reliant on kills to get gold, but they are less reliant on gold to be effective. Even if they are behind in items, they still scale a bit with the Lethality system, and they all got some more utility/mobility that helps them when playing from behind. And getting kills doesn't necessarily mean killing your lane opponents. Assassins are the best class to roam and get kills in the side lanes, better at that than Mages.

I'm not saying the situation is perfect, far from there, but I feel it's slightly less bad than what you make it sound.

Akali Kami2 votes

{quoted}

There were other mechanisms put in place to alleviate the feast or famine issue. Assassins are still very reliant on kills to get gold, but they are less reliant on gold to be effective. Even if they are behind in items, they still scale a bit with the Lethality system, and they all got some more utility/mobility that helps them when playing from behind. And getting kills doesn't necessarily mean killing your lane opponents. Assassins are the best class to roam and get kills in the side lanes, better at that than Mages.

I'm not saying the situation is perfect, far from there, but I feel it's slightly less bad than what you make it sound.

They do not scale well at all, even with Lethality. Keeping in mind that is only beneficial to AD Assassins. They didn't all get some additional mobility outside of Talon who is arguably the mobile king of roaming right now. The rest already had roaming tools built into their kit.

Akali overall was arguably a nerf. There's a .5 second gcd when she uses W now and the blink range is also delayed itself, as well as the fact that it's like half the distance of a flash. Her R was gutted and slammed into the ground. It does 50 damage at rank 1 (Not factoring in AP), which is less damage than a level one auto attack, as well as having a 2 second cooldown attached to it between uses.

Also... Champions like Kha/Rengar/Talon do more damage now than they ever did at ALL stages of the game and can easily one shot enemies with 0 skill and 0 counterplay. Literally all Talon has to do now is R Q and MAYBE W. Any who, regardless of what you think, Assassins are still purely feast or famine, probably even more so now that some of their burst combo's have been normalized or damage shifted around into other abilities to make their attacks "More Telegraphed".

The subject of this thread is that the Assassin rework did NOT make them any more viable than they were before. As pointed out, they will still lose lane 90% of the time while facing a ranged mage of equivalent skill level because most of them don't have the sustain built into their kit to survive laning early against some of these champions, or they get outfarmed/pushed. The meta is and will reliably stay shifted towards mid lane mages that can shove a lane and roam for kills. There is very little counter play to a lot of these champions and as an Assassin it is still heavily leaning towards feast or famine.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

If they can farm safely then they shouldn't get a huge kill pressure powerspike at 6.

Astôlfo1 votes

So… what about mages then? Who can farm safely. And delete assassins at 6 far faster and easier?

NineTailedMystic3 votes

Let me clarify. Removing the juxtaposition of "Please don't hurt me, I'm just a poor wittle Assassin who needs CS" pre-6 and then jamming their dick so far down your throat that you're now a cannon minion post-6. If you want melee Assassins to be able to farm adequately pre-6 then you have to tone down their insane kill pressure post 6.

Astôlfo1 votes

Except it's nothing even close to that at all? Mages and assassins have had the exact same kill pressure on the enemy laner at level 6, outside of some like Karthus or TF or the like. Assassins now have next to no kill pressure against someone who's not fucking stupid.

I'm not sure what you're going on about.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

I didn't say Mages didn't have kill pressure of their own, I'm saying that currently Assassins have very little kill pressure Pre 6 and their goal is to either survive until 6 or cheese a kill (hello new kat, talon, lb). As such, they have a hard time farming because there's not much the enemy laner needs to respect and can harass freely. Post 6 however, they hit a huge spike.

If you want their laning to be stronger, you have to hit their post 6 a notch.

Astôlfo1 votes

Um. I'm saying. That. Mages. Have a far better pre-6. And an even better post-6 now.

NineTailedMystic3 votes

Um. And I'm. Not. Comparing. Mages to Assassins. I'm saying if you want to kick up their laning two notches, you gotta knock their post 6 down one.

JedenVojak6 votes

Where elsewhere do assassins need power other thank "killing efficiency"?

The Talon update is pretty representative of all Riot's terrible direction with champion updates: Take the thing the character was good at (strong engage, solid reliable spells, AOE damage) call those things "unnecessary strengths", highlight some other thing that was completely incidental on the champion (Talon roams, unlike every other assassin in the game somehow), and make them only good at that thing at the expense of everything else (Talon can now roam better than anyone else ever! Don't know what you're gonna do when you get where you're going though).

Come back in 2 to 3 months, and you'll see.

You mean like Mordekaiser? Or Soraka? Or Poppy?

Brohoof2 votes

You have to admit though, when you have an entire class based on "If I kill you in 5 seconds I win and I if I don't I'm worthless." you've got serious feast or famine problems. The assassin update is aimed at "If I out play you, I win and If I don't you win.".

JedenVojak2 votes

But there's a severe difference between "outplay potential" and "ability to be outplayed" - the former is positive (I'm zed and shoot at you from the front and from shadows and look I just teleported to you oh noez I switched places) while the other is a severe negative, particularly on a melee character who must commit to an engage (All right now that my dagger is out I'll... you just moved away from my dagger... ok no problem I"ll toss up another dagger and... oh I'm being autoed, now I'm dead).

We want more Old Spice Guy not Wile E. Coyote.

Zerenza1 votes

Personally as a katarina main i like her alot and i don't think it's as easy as you say it is to outplay her. I really only think extremely high ELO player's will constantly remember to stay away from her dagger's but even then if the kat player knows that's what their doing, i for example would start using it to zone them off my minions.

Actually the combo i use to mitigate that scenario is (E+W+Q+Dagger Pickup+E+Dagger Pickup+E+ignite/R) thats the full combo, it prevents the opponent from having an escape in the direction of their tower without taking damage or in the direction a bush without taking damage, also can be used to avoid engages such as Ahri charm(i have been hit mid blink though).

JedenVojak2 votes

That sounds way too complicated to be practical; I much rather prefer something Kassadin's R+E+AA+W+Q combo, or old Talon's E+R+AA+Q+W. Simple is beautiful, and the more shenanigans are needed for your combo, the more likely it is to fail.

DeathBurst1 votes

Well, you mean the Poppy that was played at Worlds? And Soraka never was a real rework, just some bigger than usual balance changes made by the Live Gameplay team, not the Champ Up team.

As for Mordekaiser, I'd say he is in an OK spot since they allowed him to use W on minions and not be 1 spell down in Solo lane. Even Malicious Metal said so, just before pre-season started. I think his exact words where "he is in a solid state, I hope he won't be hit too much by Rylai's incoming nerfs." (Not to mention that Morde was part of the very first Roster update and that Riot got better with this kind of update with more experience.)

So yeah, I stand by what I said: come back in 2 to 3 months.

JedenVojak2 votes

{quoted}

Well, you mean the Poppy that was played at Worlds?

I mean the Poppy that isn't a hybrid damage melee carry, and doesn't get kills.

And Soraka never was a real rework, just some bigger than usual balance changes made by the Live Gameplay team, not the Champ Up team.

I'm talking about the rework that killed lane/jungle Soraka and pigeonholed her into a squishy healer support.

As for Mordekaiser, I'd say he is in an OK spot since they allowed him to use W on minions and not be 1 spell down in Solo lane. Even Malicious Metal said so, just before pre-season started. I think his exact words where "he is in a solid state, I hope he won't be hit too much by Rylai's incoming nerfs." (Not to mention that Morde was part of the very first Roster update and that Riot got better with this kind of update with more experience.)

The current Mordekaiser is "old Mordekaiser but worse". He's not bot lane where they wanted him, and he's worse in every other lane he's in.

So yeah, I stand by what I said: come back in 2 to 3 months.

And I stand by my statement: their original roles were destroyed and they were pigeonholed into a thing that they're not even that great at.

DeathBurst2 votes

The very foundation of Poppy was toxic as hell, it was either lose this "hybrid damage melee carry" identity that she was never supposed to have in the first place or get purely and simply deleted from the game. Just like old Sion. Do you want to add him to your list of complaints, too, or are you strangely ok with that one? Because, I mean, he's not exactly an AP Burst Mage either. Also, it's not the same scale of rework as the Assassins. But in the end, she may have lost her old "identity" -- don't worry, the Assassins won't --, her current one is in a pretty good spot.

Mordekaiser isn't "the same but worse", it has much more interactivity in lane and offers counterplay to his opponent. It's close to what they did with Vlad, in the end. So yeah, he's not Botlane (because people are sheep...) but he's still in a good spot.

I won't comment on Soraka, I never played with her original version. I thought you were talking about the change where they introduced the healing over time effect a few months ago. But mentioning this old as fuck rework in this discussion is just plain bad faith. The more recent reworks have nothing in common with what Riot did back in the days.

So, I guess we'll have to disagree for now, and see ya in a couple months.

JedenVojak2 votes

{quoted}

The very foundation of Poppy was toxic as hell, it was either lose this "hybrid damage melee carry"_ identity that she was never supposed to have in the first place_ or get purely and simply deleted from the game.

This is a lie plain and simple. Poppy was a melee carry from the beginning, and her entire kit was built around a melee glass cannon carry build.

It is also a false dichotomy to say that "her old identity as a melee carry was toxic" and that therefore she had to be tank or bust. If a rework was necessary (her ult was ridiculous, so I understand the need to change it), it was NOT necessary to turn her into a tank. That made her not fun, forever.

She's not even a good tank: I would take Alistar or Sejuani or Leona over her in a heartbeat.

Just like old Sion. Do you want to add him to your list of complaints, too, or are you strangely ok with that one? Because, I mean, he's not exactly an AP Burst Mage either.

I never got around to playing with pre-rework Sion, but I sympathize with people who lost their lifesteal melee carry/burst mage/zombie Ahnold. Sion's new kit is very frustrating, as all his moves seem designed to fail.

Also, it's not the same scale of rework as the Assassins. But in the end, she may have lost her old "identity" -- don't worry, the Assassins won't --, her current one is in a pretty good spot.

Her new identity is garbage, but I'm okay if people like her newer, idiotic self - I just wish the old one wasn't deleted and this could have been a new champion instead (I know, the oft sung complaint of anyone who is upset by a rework).

Mordekaiser isn't "the same but worse", it has much more interactivity in lane and offers counterplay to his opponent. It's close to what they did with Vlad, in the end. So yeah, he's not Botlane (because people are sheep...) but he's still in a good spot.

All they did is make his kit unable to function; before, all of his damage was not tied to hitting multiple times with a melee attack on a 325 speed champion, he had a much wider range of threat with much better reliable spells before the change. Now he's played in solo lane, but weaker in every way, with tankiness at the forefront and even Malicious Metal regularly complains about lack of base stats on Mordekaiser.

As for interactivity and counterplay, Marksmen exist, and so long as they do in the way that they do I call all claims of "needing counterplay" total bullshit. The counter to Morde's damage was the same as with marksmen, build resistances, with the added weakness of "stun him, or do sustained damage to him, or poke/kite him" as his defenses were all predicated on burst shields revolving around his spells - no spells no damage no shields, and he had no mobility or CC.

I won't comment on Soraka, I never played with her original version. I thought you were talking about the change where they introduced the healing over time effect a few months ago. But mentioning this old as fuck rework in this discussion is just plain bad faith. The more recent reworks have nothing in common with what Riot did back in the days.

When I talk about Riot reworks I talk about riot reworks. There is no bad faith or anything else involved - if you do not know what I'm referring to that is merely a failure of communication. I do think her recent changes are moving further down the bad direction her rework took her down in the first place, but she stopped being fun when they removed her ability to solo lane.

So, I guess we'll have to disagree for now, and see ya in a couple months.

If Riot ever reverts any of their terrible reworks, or goes back on any of their unfun game changes, I may reinstall the game at that point. I guess we will see.

Penns15 votes

Another reason why I think the Fizz rework wasnt good is because he is basically 100% reliant on oneshotting someone with a max range ult, which makes him kind of bad as an assassin. But whenever you do that, people go like "lol that damage" or "lol balanced champ". So youre left with a pretty bad assassin that isnt fun to play anymore and, at the same time, is called "op" or "buffed" by a lot of people lol.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

Another reason why I think the Fizz rework wasnt good is because he is basically 100% reliant on oneshotting someone with a max range ult, which makes him kind of bad as an assassin. But whenever you do that, people go like "lol that damage" or "lol balanced champ". So youre left with a kind of bad assassin that isnt fun to play anymore and, at the same time, is called "op" or "buffed" by a lot of people lol.

Well its the same thing with Talon. Talon was quite honestly more busted before the rework, but "lol he can just every wall so op broken nerf pl0x" even tho he has the downside of not having my real dash unless he has a wall, and gives up a mobility everytime he uses his mobility.

Talon has to work so much harder to get his target now and get out and has to be a ot more careful about where he is and how he moves.

But when someone gets rekt'd by a well played talon, or talon gets away with well reserved walls, "lol op nerf pl0x".

Automated Riven1 votes

i played against a good talon. Wrecked him in lane. He had a really good midgame. Picked up like 10 or 12 kills. and then fell off like a rock.

Penns2 votes

Thats the problem with lower burst/"larger burst window" assassins imo. Their mid game is good because they can actually play around their delay there, but they just cant really work late game where even adcs kill them faster (unless they get a perfect situation like Talons melee Q damage or Fizz max range ult for example) and one Janna or Locket shield or a Redemption heal or anything stops them from working.

Automated Riven1 votes

Even kat only works because she can dodge all the damages until she finally kills someone

Astôlfo2 votes

Except she can't dodge autoattacks.

Automated Riven1 votes

well not dodge them per se. but she can bounce in and out of range where the adc can pursue safely. so effectively dodging damage. and she just drops a dagger jumps in and jumps out really only allowing her to take one aa if the adc is really quick.

Zerenza2 votes

Not reliable, you haven't played kat, it isn't reliable to bounce in and out of range you won't do enough damage to offset the lifesteal the ADC has. You can dodge skillshots but when it comes to auto's you have to grit your teeth and take it cause you won't kill them unless you fully commit.

Automated Riven1 votes

i wasnt talking about 1v1's I was talking about teamfights.

Rogue Blitzwolf1 votes

My big problem with current talon is his dash range talon relies on getting close to his enemy to proc passive. His old e was really long range but his q's dash range is pretty small. Half the time you just get cc'ed before you get close to them. I was playing a game against a ryze who just kept snaring me when I went to dash, and then burst me down.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rogue Blitzwolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohLa0ZvE,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-11-28T01:33:06.883+0000)

My big problem with current talon is his dash range talon relies on getting close to his enemy to proc passive. His old e was really long range but his q's dash range is pretty small. Half the time you just get cc'ed before you get close to them. I was playing a game against a ryze who just kept snaring me when I went to dash, and then burst me down.

Yea, they want Talon to really use E for positioning instead of relying on just jumping the fist person you see.

Another thing you probably wanna do more now is W to fish for Passive stacks before you even Q. The slow and the sequence makes it easier to get your passive off that way and use your ultimate more defensively in the fight to avoid targeted abilities and aggro lIke Ryze W.

He is less binary now, which as a Long time Talon player, I like personally.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

I've started to play AD bruiser Fizz with the old Trinity + another damage item + tank items.

This build isn't reliant on his ult to do damage and you can actually survive extended trades against enemies, which allows you to better take advantage of Fizz's empowered W.

Tormentula8 votes

I always just assumed the reason mid lane assassins suck is because they always fall off.

Laning isn't the issue with assassins (mostly anyway), while yes farming is cancer vs. mages as melees, assassins can easily turn mages into farm and snowball stupid crazy off them or roaming. This is why assassins roam, because 1v1s early game in lane suck, if not they're getting ganks and snowballing mid lane uncontrollably.

The down fall is assassins fall off late game, after 20-30 minutes people start getting tanky, finishing zhonya's if they haven't already, and are grouping so those "back line murder the ADC" strats stop working.

If you say they have poor laning phase, then you're playing the assassin wrong. I can go in my match history and find a game with a 20 kill + talon, but I'd still win since I can just stick to my adc as elise, and then cocoon him and kill him, which gave massive shutdown and the same thing just happened every time and the talon went useless.

The flaws are:

  1. Poor laning phase (you shouldn't worry about laning as an assassin you should be roaming)
  2. the playstyle is hard (good assassins will roam bot lane and get free kills to snowball, bad ones will try to lane against mages they're bullied by.)
  3. They can't 1v1 most tanks unlike mages which can kite tanks and kill them.
  4. They're meant to dive in the back line and kill squishy targets or find isolated ones, in grouped teams they're basically filling the diver role but guess what, they're not divers so they blow up.

If "getting poked by mages" was the issue, Zed wouldn't have such a low winrate since he can use Q to farm, and we'd be seeing very similar playrates and winrates for the top lane with ranged champions vs. melee.

There's also the mechanical difficulty change in the assassin update, I still say they ruined kat, idc what m7 kat main replies to me saying "she's still strong!" she feels like shit and as somebody who picked up her willingly pre-update, this update just makes her feel too different and unappealing, resulting in a skarner syndrome, where only dedicated mains can really enjoy her, and those who try to pick her up will have a very hard time and screw up easily. Zed was always a skillcap champ, either being so brainlessly strong or so weak he takes skill to play, so its no surprise after the changes he fell off. Fizz is still fizz, he just feels shittier to play for both fizz mains and new players who saw the champ and thought "that looks fun!" and got disappointed unlike old fizz.

They malzahar'd every assassin this update. Those that are really good and fun like kha, will probably be nerfed to shit as well, so as a kha main I'm still against his changes cause now I feel like its a ticking clock when one of my mains I'll have to replace with playing something else, like it has happened to mal, who felt good and strong and then was refund worthy.

Zerenza2 votes

I became a kat main after the rework so i don't agree that she's shit. She feels amazing to me and i enjoy her alot, she actually feels like her story projects her.

Just having one ability to CS with doesn't make up for the massive advantage being ranged gives. Just because zed can use his Q to farm doesn't mean he will get every minion just by Qing, that's not how it works, you have to last hit by getting in melee range of a minion but your opponent can simply poke you down because their out of your range, just having one ranged ability for CS is simply not enough and no one should keep looking at it that way.

CSing is the main issue, and honestly if your not better mechanics wise than your opponent in the ranged match up you'll loose most of the time so it isn't reliable to keep trying to farm off of champions and if someone is 45 CS above you and your 3/0/0 that means that their still even and your not ahead. CSing is way more important than kills and if assassins could actually maintain a gold income like that of mages they could build things like Void staff early and not have to worry about the MR of the opponents their fighting. But unfortunately they fall off due to lack of gold income.

AkabaneKun5 votes

Honestly thought the whole reworking of assassins was to remove the feast or famine nature of them, but ironically enough they just made it worse, now every touched assassin has so much counterplay they NEED to be ahead of the target they are trying to kill.

Just look at Kat, she Q>E>W you and you just go up or down and she misses both dagger, you then unload your load on her and she loses the trade free if she is not miles ahead, just sad, talon either gets in melee range of the target to get the Q crit even though they removed 15!!! MS from him and his blink and his ulty can be seen from fog or he pretty much loses the trade free, the only busted assassin is rengar and it's not even rengar it's the stupid item he gets for free that's getting gutted soon no doubt Meanwhile the ranged mage is 40 CS above you spamming taunt and with exhaust...

But it's K since you can somehow shove that same mage to their tower without losing half hp and then pray the bot lane are fucking inept that can't ward so you can get some gold, and then you read "lmao much balanced such wow" because warding and pinging is hard.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

But it's K since you can somehow shove that same mage to their tower without losing half hp and then pray the bot lane are fucking inept that can't ward so you can get some gold, and then you read "lmao much balanced such wow" because warding and pinging is hard.

This sooo much.

Meep Man5 votes

I think the main thing is the question of "Are Assassins better to go Middle Lane in this meta?" Instead, they may want to go Jungle if possible.

Zerenza5 votes

Most of the midlane assassins can't jungle, like talon, he has a horrible jungle winrate. The main reason they can't jungle is due to jungle changes, so if i tried to jungle with kat it's not like i can burst red buff and i don't have any form of sustain unlike other assassin jungler's like rengar and kha'zix.

If they did end up jungling though i'd be fine with assassins becoming jungler's but it would be really sad to not be able to play mid anymore.

Tik1154 votes

The failure of assassins mid I feel is entirely down to mana

Think about it, out of all the Melee assassins only ONE has ever been consistent since release

Zed

This is a champion which could freely retaliate with his abilities because he used Energy, not mana, he could throw his Q around all day and his energy regen would get it back to full before it came off CD, This meant he couldn't just be autoed down because he would just throw a Q or a W>E at you.

Meanwhile the other assassins have very small mana pools and their spells cost a good chunk of mana so they can't trade back because when they run out of mana the enemy mage can just start throwing spells and shoving.

I do think that its assassins having terrible base mana pools which is the real cause, When your poke/wave clear mana costs are eating away at your mana pool almost as much as a Cho Q or a Lux E somethings wrong

(Before people point out Kat is a none mana assassin, her poke depends on alot of RNG)

Catastrop2 votes

Not really, as far as assassin mana costs go, the only person who has high costs is Fizz on his E. Everyone else is pretty set because they can usually go without a mana item for the entire game. Like pre-rework LB was actually reliant on mana too, but now you can forgo Morellos entirely if you want. Really the only reason people still buy it is because it's the only high end AP/CDR option.

Tik1152 votes

might of worded that wrong

What I mean is that in order to keep the lane relatively pushed or just to keep up an assassin needs to use their abilities, which costs mana Meanwhile the enemy mage is able to AA and because any mage that isn't also classed as an assassin has a ranged AA they put down damage for 0 mana, meanwhile an assassin can only counter with going all in (A death sentence since they'll have minion advantage) or using an ability...which costs mana.

So an assassin is left with a catch 22, use the mana for poke and be shoved under tower, use mana for waves and just take the AA harass, or do both, run out of mana before the enemy does and then be shoved under tower, take AA harass and have no mana for jungle ganks

Which again goes back to the whole issue being mana related, if Assassins had a way to keep mana regen high they could push waves and deal back the harass, the problem there is it goes against Riots idea of an assassin whos one of their core weakness (they've said) is poor waveclear so we're kinda back at square 1.

Jofeyy4 votes

Am i the only assassin main that has no problems with the reworks? (aside from how useless Akali is now)

Zed Talon Leblanc Fizz feel great.

I dont really play jungle but Khazix Rengar are strong af.

Katarina is the only one im unsure about because she is now really damn hard to play properly.

Zerenza2 votes

I agree, the reworks on the champions were really REALLY good(except for poor akali) but they didn't fix the core issue that the class has a whole. The ranged matchup, the only time you should ever pick an assassin now is when it's against another assassin, because even if a mage is immobile chances are they'll just poke you out of lane anyway and zone you from CS.

It's sad that they never addressed that during the rework but mages got protobelt to be more mobile(a problem mages had) and even during the assassin rework they gave supports 2 really powerful items that make being an assassin near impossible.

Jofeyy2 votes

Well they can't exactly give assassins an item that's a gun, which turns their autos into ranged attacks can they? Haha

**The Hextech G.A.T. ** **70 AD ** **10 Lethality ** **Active: Packing Heat ** **All melee attacks are now ranged attacks for 5 seconds ** **(30 second cooldown) ** _MELEE ONLY _

Though i guess it being a late game item would defeat the purpose huh? :(

Also, talons lvl 2 is busted. I think I've gotten first blood every time I was able to use the cheese with it.

Zerenza1 votes

Don't think i said anything at all insinuating that i'd want an item that turned their auto to ranged. Thats fucking stupid, i would prefer an item or mastery that gives them a cleave effect on their melee attacks similar to Tiamat but not as strong. It would make farming easier and wouldn't make them inherently stronger just give an item to melee's that makes the laning phase tolerable.

I'd prefer if it were a starting item tbh but if it were a mastery it would have a 10 second cooldown or something and everytime its up it's like a mini Diana 3rd hit that doesn't hurt champions and instead executes minions(under a certain HP) but would be melee only and probably down the cunning the tree.

Another thing that might be good is having Tiamat build into an AP item for AP Melee's, that would actually be perfect.

Jofeyy2 votes

No i was just kidding lol :P

xxxMadLionxxx3 votes

I agree with you that there is a huge advantage for ranged champs vs melee. However, Riot goal for the Assassin reworks was never to address that, it was to give counter play to the high burst assassin could delivery without their opponents reacting. I think the managed to address that with rengar especially.

But you're right, I think they may need to start addressing melee vs ranged.

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