Clarification on Plant RNG

Electro522··41 votes·85,177 views

So, obviously, there has been PLENTY of talk about these so called "plants" that Riot hope to implement into the game, along with several other jungle changes.......and plenty of disgruntled players are voicing most of the talk.

Most of the negative comments towards the plants have been aimed at the element of RNG these plants bring to the table. League is meant to be a game of skill, and any amount of randomness detracts from the skill factor of the game (which is Critical Strike is so heavily criticized). People are under the assumption that the plants are completely random, spawning in random locations across the map, and spawning at completely random times.

This is not true.

The plants are "pseudo-random", meaning that they do have an element of RNG to them, but the randomness is very strictly controlled. Not making sense? Don't worry, the whole point of this post is to clear up the confusion going around about that "pseudo-randomness".

Before I go on, I would like to say that I am not associated with Riot in anyway, except that I play League. What you see could be slightly incorrect. Also, this post is not to debate whether or not the plants are a good decision, this is purely context to help better visualize what Riot is intending.

Now that we have that out of the way...


#Spawn Timers

  • Plants spawn in "waves". What exactly this means, I'm not entirely sure. It could mean that the next set of plants does not spawn until all plants on the field have been used, or each set of plants have a timer before they all reset. I would assume its the former, or something similar to it.

  • The first "wave" of plants does not spawn until a little later into the game. My guess is possibly around the 8 to 10 minute mark.

  • Once plants are used, they wait a minimum amount of time before the next timer starts (apparently, this amount of time is actually fairly long. My guess is probably a minute to 1:30). After this minimum time has passed, they will wait an extended amount of time until they finally telegraph when and where they are going to spawn (they telegraph themselves at around 30 seconds before they respawn). This time extension does vary, but it is within certain constraints (around 90 to 140 seconds, I believe).


#Spawn Locations

  • Each plant has certain areas on the map that they will spawn from. The exact location in these areas do vary.

  • These areas do not overlap. This to ensure that you will not have to guess which plant is spawning where. For example; you will not have a Honeyfruit plant spawn in an area where a Satchel plant is supposed to be, or vice versa.

I have created maps to help visualize where some of these areas might be.

DO TAKE NOTE that these maps are NOT official, and I expect them to be wrong. They are simply to help visualize what Riot is intending.

##Blast Cone Areas

http://i.imgur.com/VdP9fhW.png?1

The Blast Cones (or, probably more commonly known as "satchel plants") spawn in areas that give you the ability to hop over certain walls that most champs won't be able to. These areas are mostly around bushes, and thin walls.

##Scryer's Bloom Areas

http://i.imgur.com/YDeDuUA.png?1

The Scryer's Bloom are located in areas that vision can be used most effectively. Essentially, near common warding spots (since they can reveal wards) or over the Dragon and Baron pits.

##Honeyfruit

http://i.imgur.com/wAGDZKa.png?1

The Honetyfruit are the only set of plants that spawn specifically in the river. They will not spawn near lane exits, in fact, any laner will have to walk a considerable distance just to reach one.


Here is an overview of where I believe the spawn areas are located.

http://i.imgur.com/4sM8Wtj.png?1

Again, I cannot stress enough that I CREATED THESE MAPS. I expect that these maps are far from being correct, they are simply to help you visualize what Riot is trying to intend.

EDIT: Meddler provided a more accurate map, which is shown below. Unfortunately, it is not color coded. To be honest, I'm surprised I was actually quite close.

http://i.imgur.com/EhgvgIu.jpg


#The Plants

The plants themselves are not random at all. Each plant serves a specific purpose, and will fulfill that purpose each and every time they are used.

  • The Blast Cone is basically Ziggs W, Satchel charge, except that it does not deal damage to either party. This plant will knock you up and away from where the plant was, including every other unit within its radius.

  • The Scryer's Bloom is a plant that, if auto attacked from a certain direction, will give you vision and reveal any wards in a large cone facing the direction you auto attacked (in the video, you can see a pale cross on the bottom of the plant, indicating the directions you can use it in). The vision granted does not last long (only about 5 seconds).

  • The Honeyfruit, when used, spawns five "fruits" that you can walk over and consume. When consumed, you receive a 90% slow for 0.25 seconds each time you consume a fruit. The amount healed is around 350 HP in total (I assume it will scale throughout the game).


##Conclusion

And that's it guys. Hopefully this clears up any confusion about the RNG elements these plants bring to the table. Just remember, they are not purely random, they are "pseudo-random".

92 Comments

RiotMeddler30 votes

Dang, nice maps. Those are actually really close overall to what we've been testing recently! Picture of that below, apologies the individual plant spawns aren't well color coded (pic wasn't origianlly made to show different types of plant spots, just total number of spots and where they where, it's the only one I've got immediately to hand though). The ones in the river are Honeyfruit, Blast Cones tend to be around intersections, Scrying Blooms somewhat back from the river. Plants close to the lanes only spawn mid game onwards.

http://imgur.com/EhgvgIu

Few more spawn details (some timing info for one thing) in the thread below just in case you haven't already seen it btw:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/JP3FGgEK-riot-how-will-plants-spawning-work?

Electro52211 votes

Well......damn.......I didn't expect to be that close.

If you don't mind, I'm going to use this in the initial post.

RiotMeddler11 votes

Go for it!

ShadowScorpionX2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Paleo Electro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohHORYEr,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2016-10-14T07:16:11.681+0000)

Well......damn.......I didn't expect to be that close.

If you don't mind, I'm going to use this in the initial post.

can you make a version of meddler's image that's color blind friendly?

Electro5223 votes

Thing is.....not even people who can make out colors can really see which is which. I would, but I can't.

ShadowScorpionX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Paleo Electro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohHORYEr,comment-id=0005000000010000,timestamp=2016-10-14T18:08:56.154+0000)

Thing is.....not even people who can make out colors can really see which is which. I would, but I can't.

ah, i can't even see the marks. your yellow stuck out pretty much though.

Electro5221 votes

Oh.....that's what you meant. I didn't realize that you can't even see them.

Hmmm. Let me see what I can do. Did the blue and red stand out for you on my maps as well?

ShadowScorpionX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Paleo Electro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohHORYEr,comment-id=000500000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-15T02:39:28.473+0000)

Oh.....that's what you meant. I didn't realize that you can't even see them.

Hmmm. Let me see what I can do. Did the blue and red stand out for you on my maps as well?

They did in fact stand out. Thanks for that btw :)

Electro5222 votes

http://i.imgur.com/Fua4uvb.jpg?1

Here you go!

Again, don't expect it to be accurate. Like Meddler said, this map was mainly just to show how many plants are on the field, instead of specifically detailing which is which. I simply guessed at what plants would be where.

Do tell me if the red doesn't stand out for you. Even for me, it's slightly more difficult to see than the blue an yellow (I tried pink, but that was worse)

ShadowScorpionX1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Paleo Electro,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohHORYEr,comment-id=00050000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-15T04:47:31.113+0000)

http://i.imgur.com/Fua4uvb.jpg?1

Here you go!

Again, don't expect it to be accurate. Like Meddler said, this map was mainly just to show how many plants are on the field, instead of specifically detailing which is which. I simply guessed at what plants would be where.

Do tell me if the red doesn't stand out for you. Even for me, it's slightly more difficult to see than the blue an yellow (I tried pink, but that was worse)

You're awesome, and as someone who dabbles in jungling, I appreciate the effort you went through to make this better for me. I think I can see all the red, but you never know. I could just as easily be missing some and not know it. Watch for a friend request from me. I'd like to repay your kindness with a mystery gift.

Electro5221 votes

Well.....thanks!

I actually didn't accept, thinking it was someone sending one after a game, and I normally decline those. I sent one back though!

RobinHoodDerElo9 votes

http://imgur.com/a/QgMmP 2 sentry's and cinderling's removed, now 5 raptors?

RiotMeddler25 votes

5 small raptors, 1 large. Blue/red are indeed solo camps.

Malicious Metal8 votes

Do we get more AoE camps though? I really need at least ONE more unit to drain from when using my Mordekaiser Jungle

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

....I swear if you play Mordekaiser support....

Malicious Metal2 votes

Hiss! Bot lane, ugh!

Nah, I mostly flex him Top Mid and Jungle

What Is Smite1 votes

Blue or Red Smite on Morde Jungle? I want to know your preference, I go blue smite and stormraiders keystone

Malicious Metal2 votes

Blue smite.

Though sometimes you see me not even build a Jungle item before the 20th minute mark XD

TacoTheKitten1 votes

[deleted]

Malicious Metal3 votes

Rylais is way too good to pass up, especially early on.

I usually go something like this item 3116 ->item 3053 ->item 3146

LankPants5 votes

Be careful with this. I can see this change breaking single target early pressure junglers like Nid, Lee Sin and Elise even more than they already are.

I think making red a solo camp is probably OK but blue seems like a step too far. Remember that AOE tank jungles are often reliant on blue and making a situation where they can't get it without half killing themselves doesn't seem great to me.

Phantòm4 votes

Remember Smite heals for 100+10% of max hp now... So all junglers have sustain.

LankPants2 votes

Sustain does shit-all to stop powerful invade junglers. What actually stops them is clear speed. Having higher HP vs these junglers doesn't really matter. Their goal is to force you off of camps and steal them, not really to outright kill you. If I as a tank jungler cannot secure both of my buffs quickly because it basically entails slugging it out against Gromp twice, once without any help from my team then I'm at a huge disadvantage.

I'm going spell out in plain language why this is a crippling nerf to AOE junglers, you have to take the buffs. As a single target jungler you can ignore Raptors, they're not that important. An AOE jungler doesn't get this option. Ignoring your buffs is a terrible idea, so AOE junglers are forced to try ineffectively to take a single target camp.

The two little monsters at red and blue were a nice middle ground which made the camps fair for both AOE and single target jungles. You quickly kill off the little creeps as an AOE jungler and that speeds up the camp a bit, but as a single target jungler you kill the big creep way quicker and reduce the damage from the camp since the little creeps deal pathetic damage.

Now there is no redeeming factor for AOE junglers taking the buffs. Sure they get the chickens, but what's that actually worth? It's a minor camp, single target jungers have one of those too in Gromp.

Sustain isn't going to be important when you can't kill off a buff before your laners hit level 2. You're removing tanks ability to protect their jungle, since a single target champ can now probably clear their first buff and cross the entire map before a tank can kill two buffs. If tanks can't protect their early jungle they basically become unviable, this has happened before by the way, it's not just a hypothesis.

That's why I said it's OK for one buff to be single target orientated, not both. Tanks can get help on one buff. If anything it makes sense to go in the other direction with the other buff and have it favour AOE so that AOE junglers have an advantage at one of the buffs.

KingPulse12 votes

It's a nerf for Fiddlesticks since he will take so many times to clean blue and red buffs. It's quite a up for Nidalee, Lee Sin, Khazix, Elise. Do you think its deserved ? :( Fiddlesticks item 3070 Maybe I'm wrong and it will be so much more difficult for these champs.

Decrit6 votes

I don' t think so, he is still able to clear well with crow and finish the small minions, plus the buffs for him will be easier as ever.

Still, smaller camps will be an hassle, but i doubt he will be in a bad spot.

Divinicus1st6 votes

What do you mean? If anything smaller camps will be the same, but he won't be able to "clear well with crow" on blue/red because crow won't bounce.

Anth8952 votes

It will cost less mana just Wing instead of E + W though right?

Mpuls6 votes

Correct, but the amount of time it will take him to do the camp is more. E bounces, giving multiple instances of damage in a short period of time, more than a rank 1 W does.

We'll probably see something like "Drain does 30% more damage to monsters while they are feared" or a similar mechanic.

hi its Rat2 votes

Unlucky Yasuo can't E over red wall anymore :(

President Swa1n3 votes

But he can use blast cone lol

Xyltin1 votes

what are you plans with scuttle crab? Currently most pure tank junglers have problems killing it (tons of time wasted) while dmg junglers and also the ones between (e.g. Rek'Sai and Gragas) have a way easier time.

Jhingie4 votes

I feel like thats just an aspect of the game, sure it wastes time, but at the same time, you ARE choosing who to play. Its not like you are forced to play a tank. I might be wrong, but whatever

TheCaligrapher2 votes

You guys thought about stealing buffs not being as effective since you can't leave a cinderling/sentry right? If so, thoughts?

kasfas1 votes

So, when you guys were designing these plants, did you think of a plant that would specifically fling people over walls? Kind of like riven's third q.

This may be too gamechanging, but I thought it would be funny to see a mundo or sion ft flung over the big wall next to mid and blue buff and just run right at the enemy.

Or maybe this could be used to steal a dragon by flashing over, and then flinging yourself back.

Sorry that I'm asking here, but this is the first occasion where I've been able to.

Shooper3 votes

that would be the blast cone plant friend

CrazyBear198713 votes

Give this man a job! [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Electro5225 votes

Oh God.....yes please!!!!

How I would love to be a Rioter.

Swerto1 votes

They're always hiring.

http://www.riotgames.com/careers

Electro5221 votes

Believe me, I've looked at that page several times. Unfortunately, I don't believe I have any kind of experience they would be looking for at the moment.

The Whamboozler5 votes

I'm just gonna put this out there...

I could be wrong, but I don't think these plant things will feel good to use. Oh sure, if you get lucky with one it'll be nice and maybe save your life or help you out... but that just it. It's luck. You can't feel good because you didn't really DO anything, the game just tossed you a freebie. It would be the same as if a random minion every few waves gave 5x it's usual gold. It's nice to get, but it's just the game handing you things... not skill, strategy or anything like that.

Getting cockblocked by the heal and "satchel" plant will be the height of frustration for people when it prevents a kill that they otherwise would have earned, and losing a dragon to the ward plant will just be the game saying "you didn't have the foresight to by wards buddy, so here's a freebie". They don't increase skill in the game or promote better play, they diminish it. Now I'm sure good players will be able to use the little plant buffs in their strategies to do crap. Maybe... healing after an invade or stealing a buff and popping over a wall to flee the enemy jungle. But even then... they seem like they'll more be a matter of LUCK, not skill. Random buffs scattered across the map don't lead to a more honed and skill-driven experience... and if you think dumb luck helping or screwing you is fun, why not just program the game why not go absurd with it? Every once in a while, have scuttlecrab's death drop a Karthas ult on the team that killed it. Or hell, have it be either a Karthas ult OR a Soraka ult. Randomness is fun! Have baron occasionally not give up his buff. Put the banner of command buff on minions at random so the teams have to scramble to un-push lanes they thought were pressuring in their favor. Random! FUN!

I'm exaggerating a ton here, of course... but that's the point. It's a minor bit of RNG. A minor, situational thing that will only come up once in a while.... but that isn't fun. People still talk about how crit should be removed from the game because a lucky crit early can decide fights and they don't feel the game should be about luck. Well that's what these plants are. Luck. Random. They're a minor enough thing that they might not receive enough outcry for you to change them, but that doesn't make them a good idea.

But I want to be fair. I doubt I'll get a red response, but I'll try. Meddler... or ANY red, really. Can you explain to me what you feel these things will add to the game? How they'll make it more fun and rewarding an experience? Beyond the occasional "omg he almost caught me, thank you random satchel plant" of course. What was your intent in their design and why do you feel they're a good thing to put into the game. Even if we disagree, it would go a long way to hear something beyond "we're putting it in because we wanted to" and then silence.

Electro5221 votes

{quoted}

But I want to be fair. I doubt I'll get a red response, but I'll try. Meddler... or ANY red, really. Can you explain to me what you feel these things will add to the game? How they'll make it more fun and rewarding an experience? Beyond the occasional "omg he almost caught me, thank you random satchel plant" of course. What was your intent in their design and why do you feel they're a good thing to put into the game. Even if we disagree, it would go a long way to hear something beyond "we're putting it in because we wanted to" and then silence.

I would suggest making a post of your own if you want that to be answered. A post is far more visible than a comment.

The Whamboozler2 votes

I'm not expecting a red response at all... but there was one in this post so I figured why not try?

Leetri1 votes

From how it's worded, situations like "thank you random satchel plant" won't happen because of the 30 second warning before a plant spawns, as well as the plants always spawning in the same area.

The Whamboozler2 votes

They're still a clumsy mechanic and one I think will be poorly received overall once it drops.

Rai vs the World1 votes

I know right? No one likes the idea of pseudo random plants which are ultimately still random no matter if youre prepared for their spawning or not. But dont expect riot to answer us because we dont like what they want.

The Whamboozler1 votes

And as we all know, everyone meticulously watches the map and will definitely note the spawn time of plants and factor them into their plans.

No. Most people will blunder into one and use it. That's about it.

Aptest3 votes

From my reading of the "plants" thread, I believe most people have a good understanding of how plants will function. The misgivings that people have about the random nature of plants are not a result of "not understanding". They are a result of good understanding.

You see, while the location of plants is more or less known, there is going to be a limited number of plants spawning at any given time. Assuming a plant is cleared, whether the location will have or will not have a replacement plant in it after X time has passed is going to be a chance event - randomized not by possible plant locations and timers being cleared all over the map.

The result of an engagement can very easily be determined by "can i access a honeyfruit". While the honeyfruit location is more or less going to be known, assuming the previous honeyfruit is cleared and enough time has passed, it is not known whether you can or can not access a honeyfruit.

I.E. a low HP nidalee gets ignited and goes into a river and out of vision. From her opponent's perspective, she can be both dead or alive at the same time.

and it's all up to RNG.

Electro5225 votes

{quoted}

From my reading of the "plants" thread, I believe most people have a good understanding of how plants will function. The misgivings that people have about the random nature of plants are not a result of "not understanding". They are a result of good understanding.

Thats not how I've been reading the comments towards it. Everyone is under the assumption that there are 3 layers of pure RNG to the plants, which simply isn't true.

Aptest1 votes

The amount of RNG plants have is pretty significant. When you fight in the vicinity of plants, whether there is or is not a plant is a major contributor to win or lose. If plant area is unscouted, then whether there is or is not a plant is not known. therefore win or lose is not known. If continue to fight into plant area, win or lose depends on whether plant spawned or not. I.E. if continue fight win or lose depend on RNG.

Old situation: aggressor decide to pursue, converts advantage to win. New situation: aggressor decide to pursue, 80% converts advantage to win, 20% converts advantage to lose.

If aggressor or defender know in advance state of plant, situation different. However risk in clearing / scouting plants. This is not a problem.

problem is however, scouted location, no plant, then plant spawn when you are there fighting. Then RNG returns.

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