The Reason why everyone hates CertainlyT (as explained by ZenonTheStoic)

Electro522·12/2/2015, 7:04:44 PM·98 votes·13,105 views

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/12/red-post-collection-follow-up-on.html

Taken from the article so you guys dont have to find it:

**Q: Why do you think CertainlyT gets so much hate? Is it just a scapegoat thing, is there something about his champions that angers people more than usual, or is he secretly designing champions to annoy people on the forums? It's the last one, isn't it?‎ **

A: (bit of an old question, but the subject warrants discussion)

I'll state upfront that I'm a huge fan of CertainlyT's work and as such am probably super biased.

Brad (I'll call him that; it's weird to think of him as CertainlyT) sees the game very, very differently from many other designers. Most of us see what is and what was; Brad sees what could be, almost instinctively. Sure he's been wrong many times (Kalista's passive, if I remember correctly, was born out of a desire to teach new ADC players how to kite. That's not what it's doing ;P) and he's pushed certain ideas until they broke, but our game would be infinitely duller if not for him.

Brad thinks about the game in a way that is liberating to me as a designer. There are no "we can't do this!" areas to him. When I was designing Lucian, my passive for the longest time was "killing a unit resets your auto attack timer", to get that double gun feeling. It didn't work very well and I was distraught. I really wanted Lucian to feel like a GREAT double gun champion (MF at the time wasn't it; Love Tap may actually have gotten her there, I've yet to play the new MF, but I have high hopes). So I talk to a bunch of designers and they suggest reasonable ideas, until I talk to Brad and he's like: So why don't you give each gun its own attack timer?

My first reaction, I think, was to say "is that even legal?" Joking aside: it does feel like we're all working within a certain framework and Brad sees right through it. There were issues with the independent timers (Xypherous and Brad helped me set the passive up in like a day. There was some black magic involved), mostly in that it felt much more like a shotgun dude (you went BAM! BAM! rapidly and then waited for both timers to come back). After getting strong feedback that this felt LESS nimble, LESS like a dual gun character we scrapped it and came up with lightslinger, but guess what, Brad found a home for a very similar version of that passive: Graves.

Brad has always fought tooth and nail for skills he knew needed to be in the game. I remember heated conversations about Windwall; the idea that we could just "destroy any enemy missile" seemed outlandish, impossible; now it's just a part of the game that everyone plays around. Just yesterday I saw qtpie on stream play Graves vs a good Yasuo, constantly following Yasuo's E dashes through the wall before attacking. The sign of awesome design: both sides get play around the mechanic.

Saying that something feels like a CertainlyT ability has become shorthand for something incredibly gamebreaking with awesome potential. Of course he misses sometimes: Mordekaiser's "get full XP where other champions would share" was maybe a little heavyhanded, but overall he drives game design as a discipline forward. For every incredible ability he ships, he influences or straight-up donates another ability on someone else's product.

Why does this draw hate? Because new is scary.


Well said Zenon. Well said.

152 Comments

charcharmunro12/2/2015, 8:10:24 PM75 votes

Thing about CertainlyT, though, is that despite the uniqueness and fun-factor of many of his champions, many of them just plain... Don't WORK in League, simply due to the fact that other characters exist. I'm sure if he made his own game and designed every character, people'd love him.

Edit: I'd just like to note I myself don't find most of his champions all that fun to play, simply due to how much I have to keep track of half the time.

Earl Eulrich12/2/2015, 7:11:59 PM29 votes

hate is certainly not appropriate here...but let´s just say that the criticism he receives is for the most part justified. Nobody is criticizing the very existence of Windwall by itself...but rather that it gives a Champ with Yasuos Kit too much power in skillfull hands. It would be a great spell as an Ultimate on a Support-Champion however.

I think right now he would be better of designing spells and helping out other designers instead of doing whole kits, as he rarly gets one to live that isn´t utterly frustrating to play against.

RISE Shlack12312/2/2015, 11:26:16 PM26 votes

CertainlyT is polarizing, no doubt about it.

I credit the guy for thinking outside the box, I really do. I couldn't dream up half the crap he has, and I can't possibly imagine where he comes up with it.

BUT

Where I take issue with CertainlyT is that his wildly creative ideas are forced upon the game and its community with little or no attention to feedback or outright pushback from the community. We will make post after post after post about how frustrating a champion is to play against, and he'll either ignore the feedback or give some wildly aloof response to it (envisioning Mordekaiser tri-laning, rushing mobis and taking every creep on the map or double-jungling all game [it's on the PBE forums, search for Mordekaiser tri-lane in CertainlyT's profile]).

CertainlyT seems to have free reign to create whatever he deems fit and will not budge to change anything the community points out unless it gets highlight at Worlds. It took the entire world abusing Mordekaiser for Riot to even start thinking about nerfing his W passive, even though CertainlyT had been told several weeks that this was broken. And then you have Kalista and Yasuo - yes, they have a skill curve, but if you put those champions in the right hands, they will shut an entire game down with even the slightest lead. They have attributes to their kits that help solidify any little lead they have and their weaknesses are too few to mention. I know Kalista was nerfed quite a bit and brought back down to earth a bit, but Yasuo's kit still remains very punishing and he needs less than 2 items to become oppressive.

CertainlyT is a great innovator. I will not deny him that. But Zenon's feedback is WAY too biased. He sees right through what we the community see and knows the guy on a first-name basis. That's not where you need your feedback to come from. You need your feedback to come from fair but tough critics. You need someone to smack you back down to earth from time to time lest you think you're infallible. And CertainlyT's Mordekaiser rework proved to the world that CertainlyT needs to be triple-checked before his designs go live.

Last but not least, one of the main reasons CertainlyT's designs are so despised is that they introduce mechanics into the game that no other champion has access to. Hops on AAs, a wall that blocks literally almost everything, and free exp on a passive. These are all examples of abilities that no other champion has. Yes, Braum has his shield, but he still takes the CC of whatever he's blocking - he doesn't get away scott-free. CertainlyT's champions make nearly all other champions un-playable. And that is just plain frustrating.

Maple Crusader12/2/2015, 10:30:01 PM25 votes

No, here are the real reasons why everyone hates CertainlyT

  1. His champs are frustrating to play against. Sure they are fun to play as, but for a lot of people, playing against them is hell.
  2. His ideas go way overboard, making people wonder if his ideas are not being scrutinized by the Balance team.
  3. He doesn't listen to criticism
Alëk12/2/2015, 9:48:32 PM22 votes

I really like CertainlyT's designs. Honestly feel he introduced a lot of fun gameplay and interesting things to the game. The reason he's so hated right now is because there are so many old school champions that just cry out at the strength of his kit which is just overwhelming to the older champs. But as new champs come and more champs are introduced, i think the things that make him so strong will become.... not out classed, but matched up with this new complicated playstyle of champs who are very versatile. Now i'm not sure whether it'll be a good thing or not, but I'm fairly sure it won't be as bad in the future.

Gregor Gysi12/2/2015, 7:06:56 PM22 votes

CertainlyT doesn't deserve all the hate he gets, ty Zenon for standing up for him.

sp44112/2/2015, 11:57:01 PM21 votes

Yeah, that's exactly the reason, because new is scary, it has nothing to do with the fact that Zed is fucking misery to lane against when the meta favors him, it has nothing to do with the fact that Yasuo's Windwall is about as fun to play against as a mouth ulcer, it has nothing to do with the fact that Kalista can quickly evade most champions and skills with free actions, and it certainly has nothing to do with the fact that he royally fucked Morderkaiser's kit over into some unbalanceable abomination and covered his ears while singing while Repertoir did everything in his power to meet the Skarner and Garen fanbase halfway.

But no, it's because we're just a bunch of troglodytes afraid of change.

Yeah.

Keevalroy12/2/2015, 9:44:24 PM18 votes

Because Zenon is biased, I'll input my own bias to counter his last point. He draws hate not because new is scary, he draws hate because the broken kits and toxic mechanics he constantly gets away with injecting into League are adored by Riot, and the community suffers as a result. He draws hate because he's creating frustration - something he himself said Riot doesn't want to do at PAX. Not only has this been ignored, Riot is apparently more than happy to let him run away with a design that will break the game because pushing the boundaries is necessary. Alright, that's fine and dandy, but when the community is frantically trying to push the boundaries back to an acceptable level when the "too far" point has been reached, he digs his feet into the ground and pushes us out of the way.

Then we're left to suffer the fallout from the release and Riot wonders where this hate is coming from. Gee I wonder...

Serika Zero12/2/2015, 11:42:34 PM14 votes

Yasou is really fun to play, so its Kalista, so its Graves, and many more. You know what is NOT fun to play? Playing against Yasou is not really fun, especially when you got yourself an "old school hero" like Anivia or Lux, etc.

Trying to catch Kalista, its not funny, especially when you lack dashes. Not to mention hitting her with a skill shot is quite difficult. Graves initial damage was absurd. etc

People don't hate designs because they are NEW. People hate those designs because THEY ARE UNFUN TO PLAY AGAINST >.> It all boils to this. Sex sells Fun sells Security sells. Riot doesn't sell sex, doesn't offer security. They are offering "fun" and as such, people are complaining and hating when something out there is "stopping" that fun.

He also puts 9 abilities into one single kit. I mean, look at Malzahar big win rate for the past seasons. Simple kit: skill shot silence that does only that + passive stack big aoe %hp dmg circle + passive stack Dot + passive stack suppress ultimate + passive stack passive: summon a minion at 4 stacks simple, not overloaded.

Take a look at Yasou, every ability needs a wall of text to describe it

AquariusGine12/2/2015, 8:40:22 PM11 votes

I think CertainlyT is an incredible designer, I love his champions very much.

I just.. find Yasuo and Zed extremely extremely frustrating to play against

aperson112/3/2015, 2:38:43 AM9 votes

Sure he's been wrong many times (Kalista's passive, if I remember correctly, was born out of a desire to teach new ADC players how to kite. That's not what it's doing ;P) and he's pushed certain ideas until they broke, but our game would be infinitely duller if not for him.

I don't understand this.

Imagine you're a designer. You have an idea for a mechanic, put it on an upcoming champion try to see how it plays. Feedback from playtests which are done by people who like you a lot comes out very positive.

You release your champ onto Live and are immediately met with overwhelmingly negative feedback. The mechanic is unsatifying to use, horrible to play against, extremely buggy and completely unintuitive for its intended purpose. It muddies the champion's identity and limits their potential.

Why would you refuse to scrap it?

Kalista could be so much more if her stupid hops didn't hold her back so much. A champion whose schtick is that she chooses to bond with an ally from the beginning of the game, yet barely anything in her kit changes her or her allies' play patterns. Imagine if she didn't have hops, but the Oathsworn could stack spears in a target with their autos as well. Suddenly the Oathsworn is given a better incentive to actually focus fire Kalista's target, and Kalista gives her support the utility of potentially getting her another Rend slow proc. Or instead of her ultimate pulling her Oathsworn in and giving them an AoE-knockup-dash, it Cleanse'd and stealthed both of them for a few seconds instead. Now instead of thinking "fuck Kalista, we had that kill on Janna locked down" you think "fuck, I mispredicted where Janna went after Kalista ulted her, well played Janna!" while still maintaining the potential for incredible combo plays (stealth bomber amumu anyone?).

So much potential for novel interactions and deeper gameplay, pulled because your pet passive HAS to be in the game.

Death by Glamour12/2/2015, 7:31:48 PM9 votes

Yasou thresh and kalista are amoung the best designed champions of there class, but thier kits are some what over stacked.

Only ones that come close to yasou and thresh are riven and nami in there class.

Zyra was an abomination on release if memory serves me right and needs some work to get her back into midlane.

Vekkna12/2/2015, 9:50:06 PM8 votes

It's a pretty scathing criticism when the best example of a "good" idea that a colleague can come up with (Windwall) is near-universally reviled by your players.

When your good designs make a less fun game and your bad designs inspire outright disgust, it might be time for some introspection.

LankPants12/3/2015, 5:00:46 AM7 votes

Why does this draw hate? Because new is scary.

I'd say more because he doesn't know where to draw the line. He doesn't know when to say "this is a terrible idea" or when to remove from something that's already got too much going for it.

Most designers can create interesting champs. Great designers can create champs with weaknesses who still feel interesting in spite of their weaknesses and don't feel bullshit to play against. From what I've seen CT can't do this.

Mordepool12/2/2015, 7:28:12 PM7 votes

Huh they only mentioned Mordes Passive.

I'd just like to say idc about CertainlyT. And I'm glad he Reworked Mordekaiser. Because the Rework was bad very very bad.

The reason why I'm glad he did is it showed that after everything he did to Morde WE still build and play Morde the same we have for years.Because his Optimal playstyle is not how CertainlyT built/ forced him to play.

Now that the Brief FOTM status is over 90% of people play him solo lane/ Jungle.

CertainlyT is doing a good job of staying away from Morde threads And the balance team is doing a good job of adapting Playerbase ideas to his kit.

I hope that they both continue to do that

Aziriously12/2/2015, 10:41:24 PM6 votes

"I'd rather make mistakes than make nothing at all." Ekko

Tribbles Foxfolk12/2/2015, 9:43:54 PM6 votes

I feel like the reason CT earns a lot of negative reputation (to put it one way) is that he pushes things TOO far without having it go through a good C&B (Checks & Balances) team first. Because Riot is a strict schedule of putting out a patch every 2nd AND 4th Wednesday of every month, they really don't leave themselves much time to splat bugs (Bugsplat Bard, launch Azir, and a lot worse that I forget), test balances (The entire existence of Yasuo, Kalista, and pretty much every champ this guy designs), and perform double-/triple-/quadruple-checks on EVERYTHING (Launch Azir getting disabled less than an HOUR after his release is a good example of their failure to check off all the bugs BEFORE his release).

I have respect for the man from an innovation and conceptual standpoint, but I can't help but shake my head in disgust, disappoint, and sadness every time he touches something and it turns out poorly (Kalista before they gutted her like 3 times over). Good ideas and innovation DO NOT ALWAYS EQUAL good balance and healthy playstyle with counters besides "Well you should have 2 (or even 3 in Yasuo's case)v1'd me throughout laning phase so I literally could not approach farm without dying", which seems to be something CertainlyT doesn't quite understand.

Most of his champions seem to have the annoying-as-hell playstyle of: Feast-or-feast-later-than-planned. Given enough time to farm for 2-3 key items (Or, in Yasuo's case, 1.25 items with Shiv + Agi Cloak), they just snowball completely out of control, even with so much as a 1 kill lead or even a few CS lead over their lane opponent. And, probably the worst part, the champions ALSO seem to have completely oppressive kits, making your opponents rely on YOUR MISPLAYS rather than THEIR OUTPLAYS, which is NEVER HEALTHY IN ANY CASE. And with Gnar as my main, I will be the first to admit that being able to 1v2 your opponents with a Phage, Chain Vest, and parts of Mercurial Treads is kinda stupid, which is made even more ridiculous when you don't have Ignite (Though I do love me some TP/Ignite on Gnar, despite how risky it is during laning) and didn't even burn Flash (Who needs Flash when you get a free double-bounce with Hyper stacks and AoE damage?).

Daedalus87112/3/2015, 12:38:06 AM6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Paleo Electro,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=extn7Q7K,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-12-02T19:04:44.620+0000)

Why does this draw hate? Because new is scary.

False. I mean, sure someone somewhere probably hates him because of that, but its not the entire reason.

It's the fact that when designing champions he tends to have cool ideas and stuff, but he does something that pushes it into the realm of complete bullshit. For an example, let's look at Yasuo. Sure Windwall is an interesting ability that on the right champion would probably be really cool. But with his shield and infinite dashes, he suddenly becomes a mage's worst nightmare with a small amount of gold. Thresh's lantern was cool and interesting, but thing about Thresh is that you could literally remove all of his base damage and he would still be a decent pick from the shear amount of utility he has. Kalista was just a cluster fuck and I'm still trying to figure out how she got into the game in her current state.

In short, CertainlyT has some good ideas, but he just throws in that little extra that makes them bullshit.

Rozzeta12/3/2015, 1:48:00 AM6 votes

See how the Mordekaiser Q had to be revised, and his new kit now forces his position on the map? See how Graves is now among the priorities for rebalance? See how Thresh has remained the most picked support for 3 seasons?

It's not that new things are scary. The things he does are usually frustrating to play against because he adds lots of things to the kit, mostly aimed at helping the champion deal with their oun weaknesses, and often require someone else to go through the pain of rebalancing it.

His method for creating a champion seems to go as follow:

1- Think of a very fun kit for the champion's player (and the player alone). 2- Revise kit, and look for possible counters. 3- Add elements to the kit that can deal with the counters found on step 2.

New things are always scary? Poppy will have an almost entirely new kit, and a lot of people are eager to see how it does in game.

Lucifer12/3/2015, 1:18:01 AM5 votes

I feel like the hate is kind of justified. Yes, he pumps a lot of new and refreshing aspects into the game. On the other hand, they're often overwhelming and "break" the game. I haven't seen very many people say they like playing against Yasuo, or that they enjoy having Thresh in like 40-60% of games. Or that Kalsita's jumps have sure made the game more interactive. His champions often have really cool ideas, but it's often all just too much for ONE kit, and it becomes overbearing and frustrating to play against.

CoolHandJack12/3/2015, 2:09:48 AM5 votes

While this is a romantic way to view the CertainlyT situation, it also isn't true. New isn't scary, badly implemented ideas are. Even after CertainlyT's ideas come out and are old hat, they are still hated.

With all that said, I am very glad there is a CertainlyT style designer pushing boundaries, and I also appreciate Xypherous who was the "CertainlyT" of Season 1 and 2, but coming up with whacky and creative ideas is fairly easy (just look at champ concepts) coming up with creative ideas that improve the game in a dynamic and interesting way is where the difficulty comes in.

What CertainlyT needs is someone on the design team that is willing to be the bad guy and say "No."

Wyrmblade12/3/2015, 1:27:49 AM4 votes

A lot of CertainlyT's champions aren't new anymore and they're still scary. The problem is that he tries so hard to see if could that he never stops to think if he should.

Mandang012/3/2015, 11:20:34 PM4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Paleo Electro,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=extn7Q7K,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-12-02T19:04:44.620+0000)

Why does this draw hate? Because new is scary.

This is as dumb as saying the terrorists hate us for our freedom.

The reasons players (including myself) dislike CertainlyT are numerous and have been stated many times before. No one's complaining about the unique mechanics he brings into the game, they're complaining about those unique mechanics going on kits that are already fully-loaded with strong skills and passives. It's quite the straw man to argue that the players who dislike CT's champions are just old codgers who hate new mechanics.

ModKnightsKemplar12/3/2015, 12:38:06 AM4 votes

I agree that he pushes boundaries...

My biggest issue is what things ship that are OBVIOUSLY overpowered, and the things that could OBVIOUSLY improve mechanics. I'll use your own example. Windwall feels TERRIBLE to play against when he blocks something shot at his backside. If you time it right, his windwall negates it even though it came from behind Yasuo (the opposite direction he's casting the ability). The problem isn't windwall, as a concept. It's in the execution.

And this is generally true of all his ideas, imo. He has some great ones. But even the ones that COULD be great, often aren't. Because the tech or the follow-through isn't there. I don't even know if that's his fault. Maybe it isn't. What I've always said, though, is that his ideas are TOO big for the game. And maybe someday they won't be. But for now, it feels terrible to not hit Yasuo from behind. And until that's fixed, he'll remain a testament to overstepping the rules of the game. Because that isn't fun. It's aggravating.

HayRoss12/2/2015, 10:47:13 PM4 votes

While he may come up with some broken-ass champions that are masochism to fight against, you can't deny that they're always great concepts

TendajiX12/3/2015, 1:33:24 AM3 votes

His issue is not the new fun mechanics he brings to the game that keep it fresh, its the density with which they are delivered! Sure all of yasuo's abilities are awesome but he has too many! He overloads his champs with too much awesome stuff. Too much of a good thing is possible.

TurquoiseYoshi12/3/2015, 12:54:24 AM3 votes

Okay, yes, his ideas are great. Windwall is a cool spell that got a champion built around a slightly different version of it (Braum). Kalista's passive makes her very interesting and different. Thresh's Lantern is very cool and fun to use. However, these champions also have more power in their kits than what is balanced. If you told me that a champion with infinite dashes near enemies, an infinitely stacking slow that resets on minion kills, and free vision for some reason, existed before I knew about Kalista, I would have called you ridiculous. These champions just get piled on with mountains of passives and random things that they don't even need to be good.

Totalis12/3/2015, 5:49:38 AM3 votes

and people get salty because they didn't play with Windwall's long cd and got their important skillshot walled.

Gentzer12/3/2015, 10:54:55 AM3 votes

One thing I have to commend CertainlyT for is how he designs around themes. Most of his work creates kits that realises the theme of the character beautifully, for example, while I have my issues with Yasuo's gameplay, his kit embodies "wind samurai" amazingly. I'm also a big fan of his work on Graves and Caitlyn, who, despite some number imbalancing on Graves' part, have interesting kits that realise their themes and character in amazing ways.

I mean, we haven't seen anything like Graves' new passive before, it was very innovative, and has carved Graves his own identity and niche, and for that I applaud.