Riot dont forget how oppressive junglers still are early game

Rexxiee·Mar 17, 2018·49 votes·7,259 views

You agreed and said you were planning nerfs, what happened to that?

Seems like you completely forgot about it.

80 Comments

RiotRiot MapleNectarMar 17, 201844 votes

We haven't forgotten, it's just a larger project than one that we could build and ship super quickly. We had a few things that we got into testing relatively quickly, but they mainly just made jungling feel exceptionally bad. It accomplished our goals of slowing junglers down early, but at the expense of how the role felt, what power they brought to the table, and when in the game they'd feel powerful. Rather than rush it out we opted to take a step back and look at the jungle more holistically to see what else we can shake up that will both resolve some of the early jungle pressure feeling, while also giving the junglers something to feel excited about. Hoping that we find something, and when we have a promising direction we'll be sure to talk about it.

Jaygo41Mar 17, 20184 votes

I think a big part of the problem is electrocute. Junglers that utilize electrocute have always been at the apex of champs that are very irritating to play against. Champs like J4 and Kha'Zix take electrocute and are allowed to do half of a champion's health with a single combo. It can be highly irritating to play against, especially as a level 2 laner against a level 3 jungler with doubles. I think electrocute is really, really strong early and its high damage at low levels combined with things like sudden impact giving 10 lethality at level 1 make for really, really painful level 3 ganks from champs that are already very good early game. I think the domination tree is at the root of a lot of the reason people feel like early game junglers are absurd.

ŚhunpoMar 17, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I think a big part of the problem is electrocute. Junglers that utilize electrocute have always been at the apex of champs that are very irritating to play against. Champs like J4 and Kha'Zix take electrocute and are allowed to do half of a champion's health with a single combo. It can be highly irritating to play against, especially as a level 2 laner against a level 3 jungler with doubles. I think electrocute is really, really strong early and its high damage at low levels combined with things like sudden impact giving 10 lethality at level 1 make for really, really painful level 3 ganks from champs that are already very good early game. I think the domination tree is at the root of a lot of the reason people feel like early game junglers are absurd.

Except Electrocute is hardly the problem because most junglers either run Aftershock or Press the Attack.

Daddy AntsMar 17, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Except Electrocute is hardly the problem because most junglers either run Aftershock or Press the Attack.

Khazix Kayn LeeSin JarvanIV Nocturne Evelynn Elise Nidalee Diana Rengar Electrocute

Shaco Graves - Electrocute or Dark Harvest are both used.

MasterYi Shyvana Twitch Jax Kindred - PTA

Electrocute is clearly the dominant jungle keystone.

Bogdan1945Mar 17, 20181 votes

why isn't kindred in that list 0_0 i mean you did include even off meta junglers as well , so why not kindred

Daddy AntsMar 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

why isn't kindred in that list 0_0 i mean you did include even off meta junglers as well , so why not kindred

Added.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMar 18, 20181 votes

Most arent even meta. Domination tree isn't good btw.

ŚhunpoMar 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Electrocute

- Electrocute or Dark Harvest are both used.

- PTA

Electrocute is clearly the dominant jungle keystone.

Lee, Kayn, Nocturne, Rengar, Diana are sub-optimal.

Shaco and Graves are niche. Evelynn's "ok". Vi is good because CC, hence why she's been good for a few seasons now. Nidalee was good even before the introduction of Electrocute. Jarvan's the same as Vi (and he got chain buffed).

AMYS GRAVEMar 17, 201820 votes

[The nerfs] accomplished our goals of slowing junglers down early, but at the expense of how the role felt, what power they brought to the table, and when in the game they'd feel powerful.

Maybe i'm not understanding you here, could you elaborate? Of course slowing junglers down early is going to make the role feel worse, it is worse because you lowered the power they bring to the table early game. By having less of an early game impact in a meta where the game is decided by jungle influence in the early game you have less of a say over how games turn out. Correct me if i'm wrong here but that was the goal of the nerfs, to let laners have more of an impact on the outcome of the game. Of course they would be received in that way by the junglers. Nerfs should generally have this kind of impact, and if you're dedicated to nerfing the role then you kind of have to commit to that as a result.

SteelflameMar 17, 201816 votes

The main issue is junglers only really have that early game 9 times out of 10. If early game jungle isn't viable, then all the jungle can be is a glorified CC bot for the ADC or the old "Suicide initiator who iniates the teamfight and dies every fight". Those feel TERRIBLE to play as.

RiotRiot MapleNectarMar 17, 201828 votes

I'd say this is pretty close to my own thoughts on it. Making it so that junglers have less impact early game means that more of their power has to shift to mid/late game, but if their early game is just strictly weaker and they can't gank as much, their primary path to victory is just afk farming the jungle for the first while - not something that's particularly exciting.

LankPantsMar 17, 201821 votes

I'd say this is pretty close to my own thoughts on it. Making it so that junglers have less impact early game means that more of their power has to shift to mid/late game, but if their early game is just strictly weaker and they can't gank as much, their primary path to victory is just afk farming the jungle for the first while - not something that's particularly exciting.

There's a balance. Junglers should be able to attempt early ganks, but missing them should cost them. They should also be able to safe farm the jungle and doing so should put a jungler ahead if their opponent fails a gank. The problem right now is that there's no real cost to ganks and no real reward to farming.

RiotRiot MapleNectarMar 17, 201821 votes

Yep, I'd agree that's part of the problem. It's less true now that we took a lot of the catchupxp out of the system that made it even more trivial for you to just ignore farming your jungle, but we've still got stuff we need to do.

LankPantsMar 17, 201812 votes

I feel personally like camp respawn timers are a big part of the problem. The high reward/long respawn camps of the current game lead to many junglers never actually having to farm and simply taking camps between ganks while still getting far too high of a share of the resources out of the jungle.

This wasn't an issue in earlier seasons, it used to be that ganks had serious costs because in the time you ganked some of your camps would be coming up so you'd lose out on at least a bit of EXP and gold efficiency if you failed. Now it's too easy to knock down camps at convenience and the timers are so high with the rewards per single camp so great that you really don't lose much ever.

5050BSMar 17, 20181 votes

It also was to hard for a jungler when you got counter jungled.

Altonius AmakiirMar 17, 20182 votes

It feels like that if you're jungling and can't get a gank off right now (you fell behind) that the only way to get back into viability is to keep trying to gank. The catchup xp is nice, but it feels like there's no recovery gold-wise. Which can just crew you over for the rest of the game. This goes along with the whole reward for jungling, it just doesn't give enough gold on it's own to compare to laner's cs or a gank heavy jungling strategy. That and the catchup xp also makes it very hard for counter-junglers to have a meaningful impact, stealing camps doesn't hurt much for the enemy jungler. The catchup xp makes the xp loss not terrible, and the gold no longer really comes from camps, so there's not much pain from there either.

MorganFreemanBotMar 17, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohAYH9uw,comment-id=000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-17T06:30:24.359+0000)

Yep, I'd agree that's part of the problem. It's less true now that we took a lot of the catchupxp out of the system that made it even more trivial for you to just ignore farming your jungle, but we've still got stuff we need to do.

So then, correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the solution pretty simple and three fold?

1: Noticeably lower jungle camp respawn times (to the point where 'regular' junglers will always have something to kill). This makes ganks come at a cost if failed; you're giving up real gold for a chance at a bigger spike, and if you're counter jungled this hurts more.

2: Adjust jungle camp xp, the goal being that you have to go 2 buffs + 2 camps to get 3. This delays the 'critical' first gank by 15-30 seconds depending on jungler and skill order.

3: Scale down the deadliness of raptors early game. There are some junglers who CANNOT clear 2 camps + 2 buffs before backing without standing around awhile, and others who are dangerously low. This is needed to not force them out of the jungle.

ChaddyFantomeMar 17, 20181 votes

3: Scale down the deadliness of raptors early game. There are some junglers who CANNOT clear 2 camps + 2 buffs before backing without standing around awhile, and others who are dangerously low. This is needed to not force them out of the jungle.

can't they just do Gromp + Wolves instead? Large part of the point of Chickens being so deadly is to make it better/worse for different champions and different times. Making them less deadly kinda ruins the point of em.

MorganFreemanBotMar 17, 20182 votes

{quoted}

can't they just do Gromp + Wolves instead? Large part of the point of Chickens being so deadly is to make it better/worse for different champions and different times. Making them less deadly kinda ruins the point of em.

I should have been clearer.

When I'm saying two buffs + two camps, I mean **any ** two camps. A big part of current jungler strength comes from the ambiguity of the wolf camp and how even the weakest early game jungler can clear it with relatively little backlash. This means that junglers who would heavily suffer from a two buff + two camp clear can still emerge from the jungle, relatively hale and hearty, to show up for the level 3 toplane fight.

Off the top of my head, junglers such as Zac, Nautilus, Malphite, Nocturne (I haven't played him since his buff, so this may have changed) are noticeably wounded upon completion of their current jungle circuit. Enough so that the top lane gang bang is very risky for them, and any competent counter jungler can easily march into their jungle and shove them out.

Transitioning to a two + two clear, in order to hit 3, would make this even worse. A champion like WW really isn't going to give a fuck whether he clears one or two small camps to hit 3, he's absolutely fine either way. All this change would do is shift the level 3 top gank to an invade; MU's which involve a strong meta jungler vs something else would end with the meta pick marching into the enemy jungle and picking up an extra set of buffs + first blood for free. We've seen this meta, it's not fun.

The reason for scaling back raptors specifically is because two fold.

#1: A lot of junglers who would be negatively effected are even worse against gromp than they are raptors. This is pretty self explanatory.

#2: Raptors has the most bizarre punishment curve in the jungle. Most of the other camps are pretty linear, dealing moderate damage which descends at a steady rate. Raptors deals potentially fatal damage which is extremely out of whack with every other early game camp, but once you hit the point where you can clear them quickly, they suddenly become the fastest, least dangerous, and most rewarding camp. An adjustment which hits their deadliness early game would be a concession to avoid forcing off-meta picks / and non top-tier jungler champions out of the role.

JabaTheHatMar 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohAYH9uw,comment-id=000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-17T06:30:24.359+0000)

Yep, I'd agree that's part of the problem. It's less true now that we took a lot of the catchupxp out of the system that made it even more trivial for you to just ignore farming your jungle, but we've still got stuff we need to do.

Please be careful with the balancing of "farm vs ganking". Because having un-interactive jungle farming as the optimal way to play the game is among the most unhealthy thing you can do to this game. Scaling champs need to have the risk of dying to PvP early game for them to be balanced and healthy.

NorthernRedStarMar 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohAYH9uw,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2018-03-17T06:24:21.726+0000)

I'd say this is pretty close to my own thoughts on it. Making it so that junglers have less impact early game means that more of their power has to shift to mid/late game, but if their early game is just strictly weaker and they can't gank as much, their primary path to victory is just afk farming the jungle for the first while - not something that's particularly exciting.

Or counter-jungling, taking objectives, ganking, AND farming - actually HAVING TO PLAN THEIR PATHING and use their head to make the most out of their pick!

Jesus is SaviorMar 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohAYH9uw,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2018-03-17T06:24:21.726+0000)

but if their early game is just strictly weaker and they can't gank as much, their primary path to victory is just afk farming the jungle for the first while - not something that's particularly exciting.

Then make it exciting.

Back when Feral Flare was a thing and camps respawned fast enough for AFK-farming to actually be viable - it was exciting.

But right now? AFK farming isn't even possible. The timers are too long.

T4underboltMar 18, 20181 votes

Yeah it's not exciting but that's how it should be. You need to scale and get some items before getting a successful gank. My blood is boiling when I see hunters machete jungler taking 3/4 of my hp without any other items. The game is overloaded with DMG so you don't need items to deal DMG. This is stupid and shouldn't be a thing. Additionally you gave people everything. Not only DMG but utility and sustain and tankyness at the same time. New runes has packed all those runes and masteries into so few runes that to maintain every aspect of old system you had to pack a lot of things into one rune etc. Simplyfying is not good. Old rune and masteries system was more complicated and noob friendly but gave players a trade offs and you had to choose between things. Now you get everything by default. Jungle power comes a lot from this as well. For once stop looking to earn money on casuals and look at what you did with this game ane balance it properly. You created the problems that we have to deal with. Trying to create band aid to cover it will just create another problem. You can't cover such a huge wound with simple fixes without letting infection of imbalance spread.

AMYS GRAVEMar 17, 20185 votes

There were entire seasons where junglers wouldn't even come out of the jungle until 20 min, so from a historical perspective there i a lot of room to nerf junglers early game without breaking the role entirely. It would just represent a sudden meta shift from junglers ganking or losing to actually having to farm.

SteelflameMar 17, 20181 votes

The issue is those were in much slower paced metas where it took 20 minutes for people to have 2 items.

And if AFK jungle farm metas are a thing, you then get the "I haven't had a chance to interact with or shut down this carry for 20 minutes, now he is solo carrying the game" which is specifically why they removed the AFK jungle farm meta.

AMYS GRAVEMar 17, 20183 votes

Well yeah, all i'm saying is there's room to move the needle, not that we need to peg it to the other extreme of afk farm for 20 min.

LordGeovanniMar 17, 20181 votes

This is the exact same problem of top lane bruisers and top lane and support tanks they only have early game and when its over they are cc bots or the blow up faster than any adc or mage even with defense builds.

RiotRiot MapleNectarMar 17, 201813 votes

It was probably more about constricting the number of meaningful decisions that junglers could actually make in the early game than making it "feel" bad. If we're going to tell you that you can't have as much early influence on lanes, we should at least be trying to open up your decision making in some other interesting way, rather than just removing your ability to make decisions that impact your likelihood of winning the game. We had a reasonable answer for the first part of the problem, but not a great one for the second part yet. Does that make a bit more sense? Apologies if not, brains a bit scattered after the week :P

I guess a quicker summary would be that we could easily nerf the jungle, but we still want it to be a position that players want to opt into.

RexxieeMar 17, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohAYH9uw,comment-id=000100010001,timestamp=2018-03-17T06:29:14.450+0000)

It was probably more about constricting the number of meaningful decisions that junglers could actually make in the early game than making it "feel" bad. If we're going to tell you that you can't have as much early influence on lanes, we should at least be trying to open up your decision making in some other interesting way, rather than just removing your ability to make decisions that impact your likelihood of winning the game. We had a reasonable answer for the first part of the problem, but not a great one for the second part yet. Does that make a bit more sense? Apologies if not, brains a bit scattered after the week :P

I guess a quicker summary would be that we could easily nerf the jungle, but we still want it to be a position that players want to opt into.

The problem is that junglers are taking the agency out of solo lanes.

Of course a nerf is going to make the role feel a bit worse to play, but jungle is by far the most impactful role in the game for the first 20 mins (basically when most high elo games are decided), they can and should take a striaght up nerf.

If you take a top role and then nerf while compensating them you're not fixing anything, the point is that jungle needs a power decrease in the early game and it needs to happen regardless if its going to make jungle players feel bad or not, yeah im sure they arent gonna like not being the only role that matters early game anymore but thats not healthy for the game.

AptestMar 17, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohAYH9uw,comment-id=000100010001,timestamp=2018-03-17T06:29:14.450+0000)

We had a reasonable answer for the first part of the problem, but not a great one for the second part yet. Does that make a bit more sense? Apologies if not, brains a bit scattered after the week :P

Here is a thought: "What kind of meaningful action can i do as a jungler, to prevent myself from being food for the enemy top / mid who are roaming on me?"

This kind of meaningful action ticks all your boxes.

ShahamutMar 18, 20181 votes

I think the only reason junglers feel so oppressive right now is because of damage creep.

I'm a top lane main, and it doesn't matter who I'm playing as, if my opponent has reliable cc and Lee Sin comes to gank, I'm dead if I'm not already hugging my tower or Lee is just bad.

The combination of high damage junglers and tanks with heavy cc and high base damage makes top lane a scary place.

NaqelMar 18, 20181 votes

I feel like at this point, after all the changes to camps and adding plants to the mix, it might just be that options have been completely exhausted in terms of fixing the jungle on it's own, and perhaps a change to the map layout might be in order.

Were there any recent investigations into reworking the map from the DotA inspired "slashed square" one, to something more closely resembling Twisted Treeline, or innovating otherwise?

420 gramsMar 17, 20181 votes

What's a jungler supposed to do if they can't get early game pressure? Just power farm for 15 mins and hope you have the winning bot lane?

How do you want to nerf them anyway? Make the clear less forgiving? Because wacky stuff in the is already bad, so if you make clearing hard too then anything off meta is just trying to lose.

AMYS GRAVEMar 17, 20181 votes

What's a jungler supposed to do if they can't get early game pressure? Just power farm for 15 mins and hope you have the winning bot lane?

Stop acting like everyone who says anything is on one extreme end of the argument. There is worlds of room between power farming for 20 min like it was in seasons past and the constant gank fiesta we have now.

DeadUnbornMar 17, 20183 votes

the only two things you can fiddle with to gate early ganking are clear times and xp.

The problem with you trying to mess with pathing and/or jungler's health early game, is that whenever you do that what ends up happening is that only the junglers that can:

a) clear in a straight line b) clear healthily and gank

will become viable, leaving the rest out. So going back to preseason 5 when literally only Vi, Rek, Jarvan and Lee could be played.

The most optimal route to clear will always be bot, camp, other buff unless you drastically change the jungle. If you try to "fix" that by creating very diverse camps like chickens and krugs, what ends up happening is only the junglers that can clear in a straight line will be played.
If you try having random monster spawns, that would feel super bad for the jungler for obvious reasons.

Actual solutions to the problem:

Increase early base health for camps and reduce damage to compensate --> this tackles clear speed (an alternative is to add monster to camps and readjust damage but except for AoE optimizations is basically the same thing)
Redistribute first clear xp so that Gromp and Krugs give more xp (readjust first time spawn timer). That way junglers can choose to rush lvl 3 by taking longer walking route or choose more straight route, but takes longer to clear (this one needs testing for sure, could be a nightmare to balance)
Redistribute xp so that scuttle gives more XP on first clear, and buff its health. That way if junglers want to rush a lvl 3 gank they have to expose themselves to trade with the enemy jungler

Huang ShaotianMar 17, 20182 votes

solution 1 will just mean that only junglers with very fast clear speeds will be played. As we saw in the past.

solutions 2 and 3 are both good ideas and very viable.

Zero Skill TankMar 17, 20183 votes

IMO the ezpz solution is messing with red buff. The buff that aids you with ganking shouldn't be the same that helps you to stay healthy while clearing.

They should at least try to make the slow stronger, but short lasting. That way it's still giving ganking possibility for low-cc compositions, but ganks with use of CC would no longer be so free, because the slow could get wasted.

HügöMar 17, 20183 votes

What you shouldn't forget is that most of the junglers don't decide how strong they are in the game. It comes down to how both sides of a lane play, like someone permanently goes into infavorable trades and is permanently low sure I am going to gank as a jungler but it wasn't my epic strong power in the game that led to this gank it was the laner himself with stupid decisions. The same goes for perma pushing without wards. All those jungle is broken discussions never take into account that the laners are mostly just stupid.

The Yetii RiderMar 17, 20183 votes

You redesigned the jungle with the intention of nerfing farming junglers, and you have very few incentives in the game to promote counterjungling despite counterjungling being a lot riskier than it used to be. Of course everyone is on the hyper ganking train.

You want to ease off some early pressure? Remove Chilling Smite and Challenging Smite from the game altogether. There is no need for them to exist. You don't need what essentially boils down to a fifth ability that is available far more frequently than a summoner spell with no counterplay. Point and click effects are unhealthy by default and they usually come at some kind of high cost to the user, especially when they have crowd control attached to them. Tacking a point and click slow with a true damage nuke onto a fully functional jungler's kit is unbalanced. We don't NEED Chilling Smite to do our jobs, and if some junglers are struggling to get kills when they gank after you remove Chilling Smite, you should address those junglers individually.

Siegfriedx1Mar 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohAYH9uw,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-03-17T05:54:18.640+0000)

We haven't forgotten, it's just a larger project than one that we could build and ship super quickly. We had a few things that we got into testing relatively quickly, but they mainly just made jungling feel exceptionally bad. It accomplished our goals of slowing junglers down early, but at the expense of how the role felt, what power they brought to the table, and when in the game they'd feel powerful. Rather than rush it out we opted to take a step back and look at the jungle more holistically to see what else we can shake up that will both resolve some of the early jungle pressure feeling, while also giving the junglers something to feel excited about. Hoping that we find something, and when we have a promising direction we'll be sure to talk about it.

Like, dirk gently style?

Jesus is SaviorMar 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohAYH9uw,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-03-17T05:54:18.640+0000)

Hoping that we find something, and when we have a promising direction we'll be sure to talk about it.

Make camps respawn faster and bring back AFK farm jungling. This is how it was balanced in the past (if you gank and fail, you miss out on farm gold as well).

You also got rid of the infinite stacking jungle item, so it won't be as bad as last time in that regard.

TeralisanMar 18, 20181 votes

AFK Farming coming back just means you get to get blown up by the guy you didn't get to do anything to early 10 minutes in instead of getting a chance to outplay 6 minutes in.

Mandalorian 117Mar 18, 20181 votes

This is a bit off topic, but I think maybe y’all can consider reverting the krugs. Most people don’t even bother them, because they take so long to clear, and they do quite a bit of damage in the early clears. Plus if someone counter jungled my krugs, I’m like “huh, he certainly had nothing better to do.” It’s also not great for counter jungling because the jungler might get caught in the process. Taking buffs, frog, wolves, and raptors are fast and impactful, but krugs take to long and you can find yourself in a bind since they are so close to the neighboring lane. It wasn’t a bad idea, but it’s not exactly a fun idea if that makes sense.

Like I said, I’m sorry this is off topic, but it could be a small change that would make junglers happy.

Sun Wu RyuumokuMar 18, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ohAYH9uw,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-03-17T05:54:18.640+0000)

We haven't forgotten, it's just a larger project than one that we could build and ship super quickly. We had a few things that we got into testing relatively quickly, but they mainly just made jungling feel exceptionally bad.

So... let top feel exceptionally bad ?![darius-angry]

RainbowIceeMar 17, 20187 votes

Might come in a major patch later on. It is jungle changes after all they might not even know how to do it yet either. Jg aren't meant to win you the lane that's for sure so having them camp a lane isn't healthy however it should still be a viable aggressive ganking role if the jungler is just going to spend too much resources on PbE then they're not really participating in the whole team aspect not to mention that champions that clear faster or counter jg better will be at the utmost advantage if the monster hurt more or have more exp. Your Elise jg will get rekt while Udyr and Shyvana Warwick will just walk to your jg kill you or take your stuff then you'll have scenario where they'll have to nerf these 3 champs for being how they were designed in the first place. Rebalancing the jg is a lot more tricky than what it sounds.

It affects:

the team as a whole ( How the team reacts or interacts with the jg and their clear & counter jg )
ganks ( how to balance the amount of ganks and at what point is fair to gank or should this be the option of the jg as a whole sacrificing monster farm ) encourage or discourage ganks (?)
Objectives ( How rewarding can they be, should the jg be able to solo some of them when there's too much heat in a lane? should they always require help? )
and the most important the champs that roam in it, who's cut out to be in there and what will happen to those that don't make the cut to survive the changes?

The jg imo is probably the hardest role to balance as it has too many things to consider and going on at the same time. This is the babysitter role, you have to help your team, you have to help yourself, you have to not die, you have to get objectives, you have to not waste time, you have to maximize build. "OH LOOK! MID AND JG ARE GANKING MY BOT LANE and now they're sieging!" should I be punished for camping top or pushing mid tower when no one else is around to stop me? should i be punished for taking herald then ? What should be happening? and should riot control that or should the players?

KythersMar 17, 20185 votes

https://streamable.com/mzte4

:^)

RainfallMar 17, 20184 votes

Can we do something about top and mid particularly turning solo lanes into jungle camps is really not enjoyable.

TTv KoddokMar 17, 20183 votes

Honestly, camps should respawn faster, but be worth less experience. They might also have a mechanic that punishes overganking, where a camp is worth less the longer it stays up, and resets on respawn. Reward good rotations and counterjungling, but balance out people like Lee or Xin who are legit constantly in lanes after killing one camp. (Generally a buff.)

SqueyMar 17, 20182 votes

how about reducing exp from lane minions if you have a jungle item. I have played this game since season 1 and i have never had to deal with junglers camping someone this hard pretty much every game before. In this meta is pretty much whoever has the better more aggressive jungler wins. If the game is somewhat close by 15 min then its all about ur mid and adc.

Nothing more irritating then getting ganked, recalling, coming back and getting tower dove, coming back again and the jungler is still there waiting in the lane bush and solo kills you. What can be done? play a tank that is harder to kill. Your team tells you to ward but you are. Its just a jungler that jumps over walls or is invisible or has mobi boots negates the little vision your able to obtain.

Not to mention the jungle has the exp of a solo lane, relative safety to farm if he gets behind, and red buff, blue buff and red smite to make it extremely hard to fight back.

TeralisanMar 18, 20181 votes

"relative safety to farm if he gets behind" ummmm... this really only applies when your lanes are ahead, otherwise the other jungler and/or their ahead lanes just go into your jungle and grab your stuff and you have A. No Farm, and B. No Ganks both. Laners are the ones who can hide under tower for at least a bit and get some farm there, junglers just kind of enter a death spiral unless at least two lanes are ahead and one of them HAS to be mid.