She got damge of assassins and able to 3 AA + one Q any type of squishy to their deaths.
Yet she with thornmail able to tank alot of damage from ADC while destroying them just like juggernaut.
Plus all of that she got the cc and all in of divers.
And the only nerf she got was like -5 movement speed, and people still try to say that game isn't baised toward champions.
Beatrice falls12 votesAll at once and she also makes coffee
ValiantKiller4 votes[{quoted}](name=Beatrice falls,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ocPb4q5F,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-23T12:53:35.408+0000)
All at once and she also makes coffee
The perfect lady, huh? Lol
Death by Glamour6 votestbh its the same with camile
DarukongSr1 votes[{quoted}](name=Death by Glamour,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ocPb4q5F,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-10-23T12:52:19.935+0000)
tbh its the same with camile
The difference is I feel like Camille has actual counters. Irelia can simply ignore her counters with damage reduction and countless dashes. For instance, in a straight fight my Darius beats irelia, except if I get hit by her stun early game or if she simply dashes away a million times to make up for her sloppy and stupid mistakes. Yet if I fight Camille, unless she is well ahead, I know I will be her if she engages me because she can't get away, which is technically fair because that's the trade-off for her mobility, target accessibility, and squishy/tank busting prowess. Irelia doesn't have the same fair level of counterplay and counterpicks.
ValiantKiller2 votesThe difference is I feel like Camille has actual counters. Irelia can simply ignore her counters with damage reduction and countless dashes. For instance, in a straight fight my Darius beats irelia, except if I get hit by her stun early game or if she simply dashes away a million times to make up for her sloppy and stupid mistakes. Yet if I fight Camille, unless she is well ahead, I know I will be her if she engages me because she can't get away, which is technically fair because that's the trade-off for her mobility, target accessibility, and squishy/tank busting prowess. Irelia doesn't have the same fair level of counterplay and counterpicks.
Not to mention the self sustian of irelia and power of aoe stun plus easy dashing away if she got full passive stack and minions.
DerMangoJoghurt6 votesMobility to get into a fight? Check Enough damage to kill carries? Check Defensive ability to help you survive? Check
She's a diver
And don't just dismiss a 5 movement speed nerf. Base stats nerfs/buffs are incredibly powerful. Just look at what that -3 ad nerf did to Graves.
Mordepool1 votes-5 movement speed to an immobile champion would be significant.
She is FAR from immobile
SirGank7 votesThat's conditional mobility. Unlike a riven or a zed who can string together their skills to be mobile anywhere, Irealia needs to land a killing blow or hit a mark for hers. That's where 5 ms can make a difference. If she has less ms the target can walk out of her q range denying her reset, which stops her snowball. How effective the nerf will be will be seen down the week.
SithesisLord2 votesI doubt you can consider it conditional mobility when she's effectively dealing double damage to minions with her Q.
The MS has nothing to do with why she's broken. Abd the MS will result in nothing.
SirGank7 votes.... that's still conditional. Regardless how much damage she does to the minions, she still needs a minion that is kill - able or a mark to bounce off to get to you. Irelia is a champ that is very mobile while in combat, but not very mobile out of it. She's not like a riven who can roam the map with her mobility. She hinges on getting the reset to Q again. When you deny that reset it effects her quite a bit (unless shes obviously fed). The movespeed ties into this. If her ms is too low she can be kited out of her Q.
Whether or not this is enough is your own personal opinion but to say it won't do anything cuz shes mobile while not acknowledging how her mobility works, doesn't build a basis for an argument. Base stat changes like these tend to be more effective than people think but they treat it as riot ass pulling cuz they see the # 5 on a stat they typically don't look at.
I don't have an opinion on if its enough or not.
SithesisLord1 votes.... that's still conditional. Regardless how much damage she does to the minions, she still needs a minion that is kill
Actually, she has a crutch mechanic that resets her Q if a minion that would have been killed by it is last hit by anything else, so even bad Irelias can still get resets.
If her ms is too low she can be kited out of her Q.
Her Q places her almost exactly behind you, giving her a 2 AA advantage before you can actually put some reasonable distance between you and her.
The MS nerf will do nothing because again, it's not why she's strong.
The crutch mechanic is why she's strong. The double damage on minions is why she's strong. The fact that, just like Jax, you can´t actually itemize against her in terms of defenses is why she's strong. The fact that her W is for some idiotic reason not interrupted by hard CC is why she's strong.
Irelia is overloaded as hell. About as much as Camille. Hell, Riot took away 50 base damage from Camille's E and it barely affected her, and didn´t discourage E maxing because damage wasn´t why E max Camille is a thing.
So 5 MS isn´t suddenly gonna solve all of Irelia's problems.
A second round of 8.4 Zoe is, however, given that we haven´t seen Irelia in a truly weakened state ever since the rework hit live.
SirGank2 votesActually, she has a crutch mechanic that resets her Q if a minion that would have been killed by it is last hit by anything else, so even bad Irelias can still get resets.
You're missing the point. It's not an argument of whether its easy to reset or not. My only point is that it is conditional, and that's straightforward. Does it have a criteria that allows it to be reset? Yes. Then its conditional, nothing further to discuss there. So I'm not sure why you are aggressively pursuing a discussion about it. It is a conditional mobility and ms factors into it regardless of your opinion. That is a fact and all I care for. Your opinion after that is irrelevant to me.
Her Q places her almost exactly behind you, giving her a 2 AA advantage before you can actually put some reasonable distance between you and her.
The MS nerf will do nothing because again, it's not why she's strong.
The crutch mechanic is why she's strong. The double damage on minions is why she's strong. The fact that, just like Jax, you can´t actually itemize against her in terms of defenses is why she's strong. The fact that her W is for some idiotic reason not interrupted by hard CC is why she's strong.
Irelia is overloaded as hell. About as much as Camille. Hell, Riot took away 50 base damage from Camille's E and it barely affected her, and didn´t discourage E maxing because damage wasn´t why E max Camille is a thing.
So 5 MS isn´t suddenly gonna solve all of Irelia's problems.
A second round of 8.4 Zoe is, however, given that we haven´t seen Irelia in a truly weakened state ever since the rework hit live.
Again, this is all your opinion and irrelevant for what I'm trying to say. It's great that you have it and its fine, but stop throwing it at me. You're discussing one specific scenario of after she Q to you, while I only spoke of the matter that ms affects how her mobility works. Anyone who has ever played a targeted champ knows the feel of a person being just outside your target range and you don't have enough MS to catch them or when you just don't have enough to walk up to someone in the first place. MS is critical to champs like Irelia, Darius, Jax and so on. It means she has to walk more before gettint in that Q range, walk more to set up that E, and try harder to escape any champ with 340 ms or more. Since now every champ in that category can stick to her. What she does after she has already bridged the gap is a different story, as she has already succeeded in diving, and will continue to do what divers do.
That said, whether this nerf is large enough to impact her, is not my concern. If you wanted my opinion, you could just ask and I'd of told you that she is a loaded champ and she definitely won't fall out of being a good pick.
DarukongSr1 votesYou're missing the point. It's not an argument of whether its easy to reset or not. My only point is that it is conditional, and that's straightforward. Does it have a criteria that allows it to be reset? Yes. Then its conditional, nothing further to discuss there. So I'm not sure why you are aggressively pursuing a discussion about it. It is a conditional mobility and ms factors into it regardless of your opinion. That is a fact and all I care for. Your opinion after that is irrelevant to me.
Again, this is all your opinion and irrelevant for what I'm trying to say. It's great that you have it and its fine, but stop throwing it at me. You're discussing one specific scenario of after she Q to you, while I only spoke of the matter that ms affects how her mobility works. Anyone who has ever played a targeted champ knows the feel of a person being just outside your target range and you don't have enough MS to catch them or when you just don't have enough to walk up to someone in the first place. MS is critical to champs like Irelia, Darius, Jax and so on. It means she has to walk more before gettint in that Q range, walk more to set up that E, and try harder to escape any champ with 340 ms or more. Since now every champ in that category can stick to her. What she does after she has already bridged the gap is a different story, as she has already succeeded in diving, and will continue to do what divers do.
That said, whether this nerf is large enough to impact her, is not my concern. If you wanted my opinion, you could just ask and I'd of told you that she is a loaded champ and she definitely won't fall out of being a good pick.
As a counter to your point, irelia can easily escape most champs simply by laying a stun or heading into jg to dash to a minion. Her conditions are not super difficult to achieve, aka when she's actually vulnerable, she's not THAT vulnerable.
SirGank1 votesI agree its not too difficult but that's a discussion more of her learning curve and how much she rewards the players skill and decision making. As a diver shes pretty strong. I would argue the part that breaks her the most is her DR at rank 1 W. Divers have situational defenses, but hers is pretty strong.
DarukongSr2 votes.... that's still conditional. Regardless how much damage she does to the minions, she still needs a minion that is kill - able or a mark to bounce off to get to you. Irelia is a champ that is very mobile while in combat, but not very mobile out of it. She's not like a riven who can roam the map with her mobility. She hinges on getting the reset to Q again. When you deny that reset it effects her quite a bit (unless shes obviously fed). The movespeed ties into this. If her ms is too low she can be kited out of her Q.
Whether or not this is enough is your own personal opinion but to say it won't do anything cuz shes mobile while not acknowledging how her mobility works, doesn't build a basis for an argument. Base stat changes like these tend to be more effective than people think but they treat it as riot ass pulling cuz they see the # 5 on a stat they typically don't look at.
I don't have an opinion on if its enough or not.
Her mobility out of fights might not be amazing, but that's not what makes her scary or overloaded either. Personally, riven feels rather take as a threat these days compared to most newer or conquerors abusing threats. She can't abuse conqueror much herself, and armor actually helps against her. Not to mention if she uses her shield for gap closing she can actually be abused for being squishy. Irelia just covers her own weaknesses too well with too little opportunity cost. If she:s sloppy, she can still easily climb back into the game with a single fight, or miss entire abilities like her stun and still proceed to rek you. Also, mid/late game champ or not, I still get rekt by her early game as Darius because of her ability to completely play around you, miss stuns, and still win the fight. Then, regardless of whether she wins lane or not, she still proceeds to be far more useful than me mid/late game and it's fricken BS.
SirGank1 votesRiven is a victim to runes. She works well with many but not exceptional with any. If they tune her accordingly or they release spear of shojin, I feel like she will get scary again.
I agree with you on irelia though. Her weaknesses aren't pronounced enough and she will probably keep getting adjusted.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesYeah the nerf did absolutely nothing and he is still in the same position as before. Like do you guys+riot think we are total retards? Graves got a MASSIVE buff to his W, MASSIVE buff to his health, buff to his ult dmg and CD. And he gets -3 AD as compensation nerf. Wow. His winrate shockingly dropped by 1% he must now be balanced forever after his entire kit got buffed like crazy.
But that's riot. Ofc when you change numbers their winrate will be affected doesn't make them balanced tho.
But looking at lolalytics nothing really changed about his winrate. So there we go. -5 MS won't stop irelia from being broken as shit. It is a good starter but nothing that helps in the long run when riot wanted to make her less bursty against squishy and better in DPS but didnt really nerf her burst and buffed the shit out of her sustained DPS so she now duels about everyone in the game.
DerMangoJoghurt1 votesWe must be looking at different stats then. Both lolalytics and op.gg show significant decreases in Grave's winrate from patch 8.19 to patch 8.20, to the point where he ended up slightly on the weak side. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Graves/historic/ http://euw.op.gg/champion/graves/statistics/jungle
Hethalean5 votesWell, with base stat nerfs, they are surprisingly effective. I know people laughed and scoffed at Graves -3AD, but that effects every AA, and every ability from start to finish of the game instead of like a nerf on his ult or something which you use like 10 times a game or some such.
-5 MS makes her easier to hit with skill shots and escape.
She's definitely not a juggernaut because that is a class that is defined on their lack of non-ultimate mobility (looking at you shyvana) of which Irelia has... well let's say some mobility.
DarukongSr3 votesWell, with base stat nerfs, they are surprisingly effective. I know people laughed and scoffed at Graves -3AD, but that effects every AA, and every ability from start to finish of the game instead of like a nerf on his ult or something which you use like 10 times a game or some such.
-5 MS makes her easier to hit with skill shots and escape.
She's definitely not a juggernaut because that is a class that is defined on their lack of non-ultimate mobility (looking at you shyvana) of which Irelia has... well let's say some mobility.
I think the OPs point is that she has all the strenghts of assassin's and juggernauts while having none of their weaknesses, and I agree. Irelia can last a lot longer in a fight than a Darius most of the time due to her insane mo ility, cc, and damage reduction, but doesn't, but doesn't have the weakness of immobility making that gives champs lime dar and morde a hard time getting into fights and dodging abilities. And since general resistances and hp arent as efficient anymore (unless you have a synergistic kit like Sion, maloh, or rammus), that makes survivability arguably much better than most juggernauts.
Hethalean2 votesI think the OPs point is that she has all the strenghts of assassin's and juggernauts while having none of their weaknesses, and I agree. Irelia can last a lot longer in a fight than a Darius most of the time due to her insane mo ility, cc, and damage reduction, but doesn't, but doesn't have the weakness of immobility making that gives champs lime dar and morde a hard time getting into fights and dodging abilities. And since general resistances and hp arent as efficient anymore (unless you have a synergistic kit like Sion, maloh, or rammus), that makes survivability arguably much better than most juggernauts.
While I'm not sure how much of that I necessarily with which I agree. I can agree with the sense that she's an overloaded monstrosity where they seemed to have used the excuse "weak laning phase" (which I'm not sure how weak it is even) to just make her mid to late game absolutely overbearing.
ValiantKiller2 votesI think the OPs point is that she has all the strenghts of assassin's and juggernauts while having none of their weaknesses, and I agree. Irelia can last a lot longer in a fight than a Darius most of the time due to her insane mo ility, cc, and damage reduction, but doesn't, but doesn't have the weakness of immobility making that gives champs lime dar and morde a hard time getting into fights and dodging abilities. And since general resistances and hp arent as efficient anymore (unless you have a synergistic kit like Sion, maloh, or rammus), that makes survivability arguably much better than most juggernauts.
You got my point right there, she can destroy squishy while herself not squishy like assassins and yet ahe can take squishy and nake that damag loke Juggernaut but without being immobile like daruis or urgot or illaoi
Vekkna1 votesI know people laughed and scoffed at Graves -3AD, but that effects every AA, and every ability from start to finish of the game
I saw a Rioter or two say this exact thing. You all realize that Graves has zero abilities that scale with base AD, right?
The reason -3 AD did the job is because of how Graves' passive scales up the damage of AD in close range. The nerf does literally nothing to his ability burst.
Hethalean2 votesI saw a Rioter or two say this exact thing. You all realize that Graves has zero abilities that scale with base AD, right?
The reason -3 AD did the job is because of how Graves' passive scales up the damage of AD in close range. The nerf does literally nothing to his ability burst.
Oh I thought they did. ok so do Graves not AA as part of their ganks or dueling in non Silver Elo? I thought he AAs in his combo. Also pretty sure base stat nerfs on his base AD affects his clear. Which affects the lifesteal from his clear. etc etc.
Point still seems to remain that it is affecting 90% of his game instead of small parts.
Vekkna1 votesok so do Graves not AA as part of their ganks or dueling in non Silver Elo? I thought he AAs in his combo
Yeah, of course he AAs most of the time during ganks. 3 base AD on 1-3 autos is basically nothing, though. As you said, the main impact is to his clear speed. Even then, 3 AD wouldn't normally make much difference, but it adds up on Graves because of his reload time. So in my opinion, the 3 AD nerf is fairly insignificant in terms of ganking power but has a cumulatively significant impact on his ganking availability.
I'm no Graves expert, but my observation is that his power isn't noticeably different at all. His clear time is just slowed down enough to give laners time to hit meaningful exp breakpoints by the time he gets there. I noticed it was pretty common for Graves to run into mid at level 3 and 6 while I was a few creeps shy of leveling. That doesn't seem to be happening anymore.
ProfDrDeath1 voteshttps://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Graves/Jungle/historic/
Graves's AD nerf most definitely affected his performance. A drop of ~2% in winrate is not the sign of an impactless change.
xZabaksx4 votesShe's an artillery mage.
SwiftKitten881 votesShe's an artillery mage.
this hurts me feelings -
Pika Fox3 votesSkirmisher/diver. No she doesnt have the burst of an assassin. No shes not as tanky as a juggernaut.
ValiantKiller2 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ocPb4q5F,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-10-23T15:11:28.695+0000)
Skirmisher/diver. No she doesnt have the burst of an assassin. No shes not as tanky as a juggernaut.
Yah sure undo what my eyes saw when j saw irlia dive kassidin level 2 Or maybe when i saw irelia melting mf in 1 Q and 2 AA
Pika Fox2 votesKilling an ADC isnt a crowning achievement, literally any support can do it.
Kass is a mage counter. Irelia isnt a mage.
King Lego3 votesA walking overloaded helicopter apache, with tank and drifting car all combined. (aka high damage, tankiness and mobility).
A toxic champion really. Especially when played mid.
ValiantKiller2 votes[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ocPb4q5F,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-10-23T15:31:51.852+0000)
A walking overloaded helicopter apache, with tank and drifting car all combined. (aka high damage, tankiness and mobility).
A toxic champion really. Especially when played mid.
Dude yesterday i saw irelia destroy kass level 2 cause he tried to kill minion. And people say zed, talon and wukong level 3 is toxic yet she can do that and tank more than them.
King Lego1 votesDude yesterday i saw irelia destroy kass level 2 cause he tried to kill minion. And people say zed, talon and wukong level 3 is toxic yet she can do that and tank more than them.
Dude, she's the very reason why i dropped from silver 1 to silver 3. I climbed in less than a week, and then she showed up mid and no matter what i did (good or bad) she was going around splitpushing and melting everything.
ValiantKiller1 votes[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ocPb4q5F,comment-id=000c00000000,timestamp=2018-10-23T15:48:43.527+0000)
Dude, she's the very reason why i dropped from silver 1 to silver 3. I climbed in less than a week, and then she showed up mid and no matter what i did (good or bad) she was going around splitpushing and melting everything.
Cause she doesn't fall off special if she mid cause squishy mid and adc to snowball on if behind
King Lego1 votesCause she doesn't fall off special if she mid cause squishy mid and adc to snowball on if behind
Not even her own lane, yet a thing. Unhealthy. Very unhealthy.
ValiantKiller1 votes[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ocPb4q5F,comment-id=000c0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-23T16:17:30.190+0000)
Not even her own lane, yet a thing. Unhealthy. Very unhealthy.
If she yop mostly she will fall against urgot, Darius and such champions but mid nah
King Lego1 votesIf she yop mostly she will fall against urgot, Darius and such champions but mid nah
I don't think Urgot hard counters Irelia. Irelia's R can disarm Urgot even his W, which means he can't proc his passive shotguns. Although unless he uses his e and buy himself time until the disarm wears off. Now to think of it, i think it's a 50/50.
ValiantKiller1 votes[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ocPb4q5F,comment-id=000c000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-23T18:49:24.864+0000)
I don't think Urgot hard counters Irelia. Irelia's R can disarm Urgot even his W, which means he can't proc his passive shotguns. Although unless he uses his e and buy himself time until the disarm wears off. Now to think of it, i think it's a 50/50.
It 50/50 indeed but i mean atleast he got a chance to fight her unlike other champions.
King Lego1 votesIt 50/50 indeed but i mean atleast he got a chance to fight her unlike other champions.
I main Urgot top. Irelia is cancer to deal with too though.
ValiantKiller1 votes[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ocPb4q5F,comment-id=000c00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-23T19:12:18.224+0000)
I main Urgot top. Irelia is cancer to deal with too though.
I'm urgot main myself, but when i face her with urgot is much less cancer to deal with as playing with another champion against her. But again maybe cause i main him for long time.
King Lego1 votesI'm urgot main myself, but when i face her with urgot is much less cancer to deal with as playing with another champion against her. But again maybe cause i main him for long time.
Yeah, i haven't played Urgot for a long time. I mostly play Vel'Koz mid or Sona Support because i'm not much in the mood for top lane for some reason.
I often build 
on Urgot though.
ValiantKiller1 votes[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ocPb4q5F,comment-id=000c0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-23T20:05:56.326+0000)
Yeah, i haven't played Urgot for a long time. I mostly play Vel'Koz mid or Sona Support because i'm not much in the mood for top lane for some reason. I often build
He mostly picked or banned right now so not worth it, plus 
top is something to be happy about to not deal with.
King Lego1 votesHe mostly picked or banned right now so not worth it, plus
"healthy" Yeah i heard about it. Building tanky or something on Viktor.
ValiantKiller1 votes[{quoted}](name=King Lego,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ocPb4q5F,comment-id=000c000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-23T21:15:42.066+0000)
"healthy" Yeah i heard about it. Building tanky or something on Viktor.
Spam his stupid shield + damage + slow + dumb thing called Viktor top.
jocomotion2 votesSkirmisher
Like these
Melledoneus2 votesWhat is irelia? Diver or Juggernaut or Assassin
Yes.
YuGiHo1 votesshe is a diver like 
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, and like a diver if allowed to get on any squishy she can kill them pretty fast but she is also pretty durable because divers need to be able to survive once they dive in to a team. if you think she is like a Juggernaut she does share some traits with them and her build item for item is the same as most of them but honestly that's riots fault for having poor item diversity.
Saezio3 votesshe is a diver like
Sorry but no. Irelia is straight up busted. The rest of them have clear weaknesses (maybe camile is a bit busted too but not as much as camile) Xin can't do shit to you without flash, Irelia straight up resists anything and everything with a continuous fiora W. Either make irelia HAS to buy full AD to burst people, or remove her on hit and on attack on her Q so she has to actually auto after for the sweet sheen+tiamat proc.