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My only problem with Stoneplate Cho'gath is that flash exists

ValyrianBlade··3 votes·592 views

I mean, I have other problems with Cho'gath as a champion, but they're all irrelevant to his abuse of Stoneplate.

I would have no problem with Riot's argument that Cho'gath can handle the power that Stoneplate gives his ultimate (like we're looking at 1500 true damage ults) due to his unreliable engage / inability to access his preferred targets. He's also pretty huge, so easily hit by that enemy carry's teammates trying to peel for him.

My problem is that Cho'gath can flash though, just like any other champion. There are going to be loads of games that get decided because at 30+ minutes Cho'gath can just burn a 5min cooldown and flash on the enemy ADC (or fed APC) and one-shot them with stoneplate-R before they can react and flash away themselves (or if that flash is on cooldown gg). Cho'gath is more than tanky enough to not care about any retaliation (especially with Stoneplate active) and his team immediately has an engaged 5v4 with the enemy team missing their biggest source of damage. Not to mention that cho can use that "unreliable" Q to block off the enemy team's reasonable escape route after he has flashed in.

Flash removes the unreliability. Hence the interaction is too strong. That is all. Flash isn't going anywhere, so Cho-gath gets banned by me every game for as long as this interaction exists (at least in its current state).

7 Comments

Dark Nephthys2 votes

Everyone has summoner 4 though so saying that is making it to strong on some one like Chogath is just silly. Also as you and everyone else that complains about that combo mentioned, it's item 3193 that is the problem right? Well it is an active item that the player has the use and it shows a big enough change in Cho so you know when it's active. The ADC can just flash or dash away from Cho before it's active and don't have a problem. If Cho activates his Stone plate, then it's obvious that hes going to flash on to some one and eat them so you can either just run/dash/flash away from him before he even gets the chance to flash on you or just CC him and keep him occupied for 4 seconds for his stoneplate to disappear.

The other option Cho might have would be to flash on you, then activate Stoneplate and then eat you. But if you actually let him run up to you, flash on you, pop his stoneplate and then he eats you without you flashing/dashing/CC'ing him or having anyone else on your team help you then it's you and your teams fault for not reacting fast enough when you had well enough time to.

As far as just killing him, there is enough champions in the game that deal % health damage, and even a strong AP and AD item that can be used to help against him item 3153 item 3151. Also if you are playing a mage, you could even get item 3102 or use item 3157 when you see him either run to you or flash on you which would give your team enough time to react (hopefully) and at least stall out his stoneplate.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Nephthys,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ob914j0j,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-07-29T02:33:23.686+0000)

Everyone has summoner 4 though so saying that is making it to strong on some one like Chogath is just silly. Also as you and everyone else that complains about that combo mentioned, it's item 3193 that is the problem right? Well it is an active item that the player has the use and it shows a big enough change in Cho so you know when it's active. The ADC can just flash or dash away from Cho before it's active and don't have a problem. If Cho activates his Stone plate, then it's obvious that hes going to flash on to some one and eat them so you can either just run/dash/flash away from him before he even gets the chance to flash on you or just CC him and keep him occupied for 4 seconds for his stoneplate to disappear.

The other option Cho might have would be to flash on you, then activate Stoneplate and then eat you. But if you actually let him run up to you, flash on you, pop his stoneplate and then he eats you without you flashing/dashing/CC'ing him or having anyone else on your team help you then it's you and your teams fault for not reacting fast enough when you had well enough time to.

As far as just killing him, there is enough champions in the game that deal % health damage, and even a strong AP and AD item that can be used to help against him item 3153 item 3151. Also if you are playing a mage, you could even get item 3102 or use item 3157 when you see him either run to you or flash on you which would give your team enough time to react (hopefully) and at least stall out his stoneplate.

My point really simplifies to: Riot's argument: "Cho and Stoneplate Speaking of Cho, figured it would be good to talk a bit about him and Stoneplate. We're very much aware there are some strong opinions about Cho and Stoneplate out there and it's a topic with a range of opinions on it internally too. We talked about that particular interaction a lot before launching Stoneplate. Feast's a really high true damage spell, capable of getting to around 1000 damage late game on a tank build, with Stoneplate pushing that up a few hundred more assuming a normal number of Feast stacks. That's more true damage than we'd normally be happy seeing from a champ in a single ability. Cho's got some pretty pronounced weaknesses however, in particular his long cast times, lack of mobility and limited reliability. Between those and the need to build Stoneplate, be around 3+ enemy champs and get into Feast range we concluded it was appropriate to allow the Cho/Stoneplate interaction to exist. So far that's still our take on it at present too. "

My argument: Flash alone allows Cho'gath to reliably get into Feast range and within range of 3+ enemy champions simultaneously. Ignore your straightforward thought of him running straight at you. It's not unfathomable that Cho'gath can flash over a wall and eat a carry. It's also possible that he can have an ally trap the carry for him with more reliable engage, but that's not really my point. Most players play on 40+ ping and that's more than enough time for him to flash - stoneplate - R before the defender can flash away - even if he's in your vision.

Dark Nephthys1 votes

I'll agree with the "ally can CC carry for Cho to get more reliable" argument as that is a strong possibility but that is also using the coordination of your team and utilizing it to make something that is not as reliable a better chance like Malphite + Yasuo or any initiation champion + Orianna but as you mentioned in your post, that is not what the point you wanted to talk about.

What I'm questioning is how you are saying "Before the defender can flash away - even if he's in your vision" Because Cho has to Flash + Stoneplate + R which is 3 buttons, how can he do that faster than the defender presses flash...1 button? Now if he comes from fog of war and you are close to them and he activates stoneplate when he is in fog of war and than flashes on you and eats you, then yes that would be before the defender can react. But to say that you can't react fast enough to Cho when you have vision of him and he needs to activate 3 different item/summoner/abilities before you even activate your flash or even any escape is a huge exaggeration, especially when you know exactly what he is going to do. That's like when the enemy has an Annie with her stun up and a team fight is about to start, you know she is going to flash tibbers.

Also as you and Riot mentioned, that you need to be within range of 3 people for that stoneplate to get its full effect. If you had vision of Cho and your ally that would be an obvious target for Cho is near by, you could just save any form of CC for when you know he is going to flash in to attempt to help that ally.

ValyrianBlade1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dark Nephthys,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ob914j0j,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-29T03:44:36.908+0000)

I'll agree with the "ally can CC carry for Cho to get more reliable" argument as that is a strong possibility but that is also using the coordination of your team and utilizing it to make something that is not as reliable a better chance like Malphite + Yasuo or any initiation champion + Orianna but as you mentioned in your post, that is not what the point you wanted to talk about.

What I'm questioning is how you are saying "Before the defender can flash away - even if he's in your vision" Because Cho has to Flash + Stoneplate + R which is 3 buttons, how can he do that faster than the defender presses flash...1 button? Now if he comes from fog of war and you are close to them and he activates stoneplate when he is in fog of war and than flashes on you and eats you, then yes that would be before the defender can react. But to say that you can't react fast enough to Cho when you have vision of him and he needs to activate 3 different item/summoner/abilities before you even activate your flash or even any escape is a huge exaggeration, especially when you know exactly what he is going to do. That's like when the enemy has an Annie with her stun up and a team fight is about to start, you know she is going to flash tibbers.

Also as you and Riot mentioned, that you need to be within range of 3 people for that stoneplate to get its full effect. If you had vision of Cho and your ally that would be an obvious target for Cho is near by, you could just save any form of CC for when you know he is going to flash in to attempt to help that ally.

Which is why I brought up ping.

40 ping = 40ms for the player to press 3 buttons before the other player even gets to see that they've started this combo. Lots of people play on 60 or even 100 ping. I don't know about you, but I can press F-T-R (I've recoded 7 to T to use my primary active faster on any champion) in less than 0.2 seconds. Given the average human reaction time is 0.25 seconds for a visual stimulus (and I doubt most players are accustomed to insta-flashing when hearing a flash [it's only 0.17 seconds on an audio stimulus]) and then add in the extra ping - yea, simply put I don't agree with your argument. You're claiming I'm wrong because you can press 1 button faster than I can press 3. I'm claiming you're wrong because I can press 2 additional buttons faster than you can press 1, when I get to choose when we're allowed to start (by pressing my first button) AND there's a delay before you even get notified of that start signal (even if it's only 0.04sec). As long as I can press 2 buttons within 0.25 seconds, I'll have arguably executed the whole combo before you've even realized I flashed in.

Dark Nephthys1 votes

Then you must be playing against either some really laggy people or really bad people. I can instantly flash the second that the enemy flashes on me, especially if I have vision of him and I know that is a champion that** will** flash on some one. Also more people have <40 ping because more people live in the east coast than west.

Also if you had vision of Chogath and you are a carry and you are close enough that he only needs to flash to get to you, then you are out of position and stupid since flash's range is very small. And that requires the CD of flash so it's a CD of 5 minutes. If champions like Annie are allowed to have the potential to instant-burst the entire enemy team and it's "fair" because you were in range of her flash + tibbers and it takes up a 5 minute CD then it's fair for Cho to be able to do the same every 5 mins and only kill 1 person.

And my suggestion still stands, if you are an AP champion then you could just grab item 3102 and you don't have to worry about anything, and even AD champions could use item 3026

EcchiOtakuTM1 votes

Just change stoneplate's active from counting as bonus hp instead the hp increase from stoneplate counts as BASE hp this way bonus hp scalings do not even consider it. Simpliest change in history that noone wants to take 5minutes to even implement.

Zelorxon1 votes

I KNOW RIGHT? :D IMAGINE IF CHO WOULDN'T HAVE FLASH TO FLASH-R AND BITE OFF YOUR FACE, OH WAIT BUT THAT MEANS THAT YOU HAVE NO FLASH EITHER. WHAT A SHAME IF HE COULD JUST POP RIGHTEOUS GLORY OR GHOST AND RUN STRAIGHT TO YOUR FACE, I THINK MOBILITY IS TOXIC IN THIS GAME AND SHOULD BE REMOVED ENTIRELY, YOU KNOW WHAT? RANGE IS TOXIC TOO, IT'S NOT LIKE I USE IT ANYWAY SINCE I GO MELEE WHEN I PLAY ADC. REMOVE SIGHTSTONE TOO, SUPPORTS SHOULDN'T BE FORCED TO BUY A TOXIC ITEM. HELL, JUST FUCKING REMOVE THE WHOLE GAME ENTIRELY, SO I DON'T HAVE TO TORTURE MYSELF READING THIS BULLSHIT. LET'S JUST STARE AT THE SCREEN WATCHING AN INTERACTIVE MOVIE (ps3 casual games anyone?)

AM I A GENIUS YET? :D

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